If Burns wins the Hart...

[skillhockey]

Burns should win the hart if he plays like this. Forwards are having a mediocre season.

 

[JeremyTB]

This would be like a pitcher winning the MVP but giving the Cy Young to someone else.

 

[Wingsfan 4 life]

3 goalies have won the Hart but not the Vezina.

1928-29: Roy Warters (NY Americans) won the Hart, lost Vezina to George Hainsworth (Canadiens)
1949-50: Charlie Rayner (Rangers) won the Hart, lost Vezina to Bill Durnan (Canadiens)
1953-54: Al Rollins (Blackhawks) won the Hart, lost Vezina to Harry Lumley (Leafs)

It has never happened that a dman won the Hart but not the Norris, keep in mind that the Norris wasn't awarded until the same season as All Rollins (see above) won the Hart. You can surely double check retro awards but going with officially awarded ones, it only happened to goalies. Besides, whatever reason there was not to give the Hart trophy winner the vezina as well, I think retro awards would be more reasonable and give the positional award to the MVP as well, particularly defensemen.

The thing is Norris and Hart are both voted by members of the PHWA, while the Vezina is voted by GM's. Nowadays, if you've won the Hart as a defenseman or goalie, there's a very good chance your taking home the Norris/Vezina too, but IMO, there's a little more of a chance a Hart winning goalie not also collecting a Vezina due to possible difference in PHWA/GM voting.

Edit. By very good, I mean its pretty much a 100% given for a defenseman, with a very slight less chance for the goalie. Under the current criteria for both Norris/Vezina, there have been no D/G that won the Hart without winning the Norris/Vezina in the same year. Orr(3 times), Pronger, Hasek(twice), Theodore and Price is the short list.

 

[Zarzh]

3 goalies have won the Hart but not the Vezina.

1928-29: Roy Warters (NY Americans) won the Hart, lost Vezina to George Hainsworth (Canadiens)
1949-50: Charlie Rayner (Rangers) won the Hart, lost Vezina to Bill Durnan (Canadiens)
1953-54: Al Rollins (Blackhawks) won the Hart, lost Vezina to Harry Lumley (Leafs)

It has never happened that a dman won the Hart but not the Norris, keep in mind that the Norris wasn't awarded until the same season as All Rollins (see above) won the Hart. You can surely double check retro awards but going with officially awarded ones, it only happened to goalies. Besides, whatever reason there was not to give the Hart trophy winner the vezina as well, I think retro awards would be more reasonable and give the positional award to the MVP as well, particularly defensemen.

Vezina wasn't voted on. It used to be the Jennings trophy.

 

[GaboriklessWild]

Right now at least 15 DEFENSEman in the league who are better DEFENSEman than Burns is. The dude is all over the just did not defend.

He is a super-awesome player, fantastic skill-set, size, speed, shooting, passing... but these Karlsson, PK, Burns = Norris are a huge joke. These folks deserve their own award.

 

[Iceman]

Vezina wasn't voted on. It used to be the Jennings trophy.

Yes? It still happened.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The Vezina, pre-1982 (?) was just given to the player with the least GA. So, there is not as much of a corollary there...

 

[Doctor No]

Yes? It still happened.

Yes, it happened back when the criteria didn't involve voting for the Vezina.

So it happened and was irrelevant to what's currently being discussed. If you consider that better, so be it.

 

[Mad Brills*]

Burns isn't winning the hart if the oilers make the playoffs.

 

[John Eichel da GOAT]

if he wins the Hart, there is zero chance he does not win the Norris. My guess is he wins the Norris and Lindsey, but Crosby wins the Hart.

 

[ecemleafs]

3 goalies have won the Hart but not the Vezina.

1928-29: Roy Warters (NY Americans) won the Hart, lost Vezina to George Hainsworth (Canadiens)
1949-50: Charlie Rayner (Rangers) won the Hart, lost Vezina to Bill Durnan (Canadiens)
1953-54: Al Rollins (Blackhawks) won the Hart, lost Vezina to Harry Lumley (Leafs)

It has never happened that a dman won the Hart but not the Norris, keep in mind that the Norris wasn't awarded until the same season as All Rollins (see above) won the Hart. You can surely double check retro awards but going with officially awarded ones, it only happened to goalies. Besides, whatever reason there was not to give the Hart trophy winner the vezina as well, I think retro awards would be more reasonable and give the positional award to the MVP as well, particularly defensemen.

i believe the vezina was essentially the jennings trophy back then

 

[SAK11]

That would be hilarious, let's give Burns the Hart for being the best player but somehow he's not the best d-man. And then to make it even better, let's pass up on 10 or so more deserving d-men to give it to Weber

 

[McRpro]

Hart is supposed to be most valuable, not the best. Norris is supposed to be for the best D, not most valuable.

With that realization it IS possible for Burns to win the Hart and not the Norris. It would seem like a slam dunk but look at who votes on these things. Ovechkin got on the first and second all star teams a few years ago....

 

[Brewsky]

It should be Burns, Suter and Karlsson nominated.

But easily Burns with the win right now.

 

[danyhabsfan]

Weber ?

 

[Tofveve]

I'm really sick of seeing Burns threads and I'm a Sharks fan.

Can we get a Burns/Norris megathread?

And to answer your question: no.

We non-Shark fans can't get enough of Burns. Actually most of us like Marleau and Thornton and would like to see them get a cup. Heck, sign Iginla as a water-boy and get them all a cup.

 

[tfong]

We non-Shark fans can't get enough of Burns. Actually most of us like Marleau and Thornton and would like to see them get a cup. Heck, sign Iginla as a water-boy and get them all a cup.

I'd be on board for this.

 

[Dod93Cityt]

How does that make sense?

Hart is supposed to be most valuable, not the best.

Yeah, but it doesnt really work like that.

 

[Hisch13r]

lol Weber shouldn't even be near the running for the Norris. Burns, Karlsson, Hedman, Keith, McDonagh, Suter and Doughty are all more worthy

Burns should win the hart if he plays like this. Forwards are having a mediocre season.

McDavid deserves the Hart. Edmonton was the 2nd worst last year and now they're sitting comfortably in a playoff spot.

 

[Nashology]

Right now at least 15 DEFENSEman in the league who are better DEFENSEman than Burns is. The dude is all over the just did not defend.

He is a super-awesome player, fantastic skill-set, size, speed, shooting, passing... but these Karlsson, PK, Burns = Norris are a huge joke. These folks deserve their own award.

This is such a horrible statement I don't even know if it is worth responding.

Brent Burns is the best player who plays defence in the NHL.

Not the best defensive dman in the NHL.

 

[Kcoyote3]

Right now at least 15 DEFENSEman in the league who are better DEFENSEman than Burns is. The dude is all over the just did not defend.

He is a super-awesome player, fantastic skill-set, size, speed, shooting, passing... but these Karlsson, PK, Burns = Norris are a huge joke. These folks deserve their own award.

And there are about 30+ better shooters than McDavid. You going to argue that the main job of a forward is to score goals or to create goals?

Because that's essentially what you're doing if you're arguing there are 15 better defensive dmen than Burns. That's likely true. It doesn't negate that his presence makes the team better as a whole. And stats lay this out. Despite playing huge minutes against top lines Burns is 53.0 in CF% 5 on 5. He's +21 in plus/minus on the season. He is on the ice for almost half of the Sharks scored for. He's played the 6th most minutes out of any Dman so far this year.

His CF% is higher than:

Weber 50.6
Karlsson 48.9
Suter 47.2
Shattenkirk 52.9
Keith 50.6
Schultz 52.1
Byfuglien 51.0
Ristolainen 43.0
Jones 52.6
McDonagh 47.3

For some names in the top 15. Basically out of the top 15 point getters this year, Burns is better than 10 in CF%, and worse than 4.

And before you say "well he just plays on a good team", his CF relative to the team is 14.17, the second best in the league behind Dougie Hamilton.

 

[Cousin Eddie]

If you're a d-man and you win the Hart, I feel like it's sort of implied you'd win the Norris too. Like if you're a goalie and you win the Hart, you're probably going to win the Vezina as well.

Not necessarily since the hart has more to do with importance to your team. For example in 2014 Rask narrowly beat Varlamov for the Vezina but Varlamov had far more votes for the hart due to his importance to the Avs.

 

[Alwalys]

Not necessarily since the hart has more to do with importance to your team. For example in 2014 Rask narrowly beat Varlamov for the Vezina but Varlamov had far more votes for the hart due to his importance to the Avs.

huge difference between hart votes and winning the hart.

 

[ecemleafs]

And there are about 30+ better shooters than McDavid. You going to argue that the main job of a forward is to score goals or to create goals?

Because that's essentially what you're doing if you're arguing there are 15 better defensive dmen than Burns. That's likely true. It doesn't negate that his presence makes the team better as a whole. And stats lay this out. Despite playing huge minutes against top lines Burns is 53.0 in CF% 5 on 5. He's +21 in plus/minus on the season. He is on the ice for almost half of the Sharks scored for. He's played the 6th most minutes out of any Dman so far this year.

His CF% is higher than:

Weber 50.6
Karlsson 48.9
Suter 47.2
Shattenkirk 52.9
Keith 50.6
Schultz 52.1
Byfuglien 51.0
Ristolainen 43.0
Jones 52.6
McDonagh 47.3

For some names in the top 15. Basically out of the top 15 point getters this year, Burns is better than 10 in CF%, and worse than 4.

And before you say "well he just plays on a good team", his CF relative to the team is 14.17, the second best in the league behind Dougie Hamilton.

dont mean to change direction of this thread "i kinda do" but mcdonagh is that high in points and his corsi is 47% despite playing most of his time with an average AHL dman is spectacular!

 

[CanadienShark]

So because a d-man was so dominant over his peers (ESPECIALLY fellow d-men) that he warranted winning the Hart, we should just award a pity Norris to the second best? Come on. If Burns wins the Hart, the Norris is a lock. Hell, at this point, the Norris is close to a lock.