If Bobby Orr took a time machine from 1970 to 2017...

[BraveCanadian]

What kind of demographic & economic factors?

The baby boom and post war prosperity that resulted in a large amount of people being in the middle class.

 

[MonarchFlames]

Marner/Gaudreau being able to "physically" survive in 2017 NHL =/= Gretzky/Orr being the best players in the league.

The game is still tough today in terms of physical play, just not in terms of fighting.

The last sentence is one of the reasons the game today is considered to be more "skilled" than in previous generations.

LMAO you can't seriously think that Gretkzy/Orr wouldnt be AINEC best players in the league. And the reason why it's more skilled is because the lower level talent has increased. Not the elite talent. The elite talents actually gotten worse that's why we see parity in scoring and not that many dominant forwards. It's because the talent nowadays is so close together. But the elite high end talent of the league is much worse than it was. Gretzky easily hits 140+ pts in 2017. And I'd bet Orr could come close to a 100 pts, but if he doesnt he's gauranteed ppg dman plus Norris every year.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not So.....

Marner/Gaudreau being able to "physically" survive in 2017 NHL =/= Gretzky/Orr being the best players in the league.

The game is still tough today in terms of physical play, just not in terms of fighting.

The last sentence is one of the reasons the game today is considered to be more "skilled" than in previous generations.

Not so..... very few of today's players have an adequate backhand shot or pass making it easier for defencemen and goalies to defend since there are fewer options to consider. So the offence is not as wide, limited to one side. Defensively it allows clustering to the middle and goalies do not require the same lateral mobility as previously.

Defencemen today do not know how to use the angled check, rubbing out the attacker on the boards or leveraging them in open ice, stripping the puck and starting an odd man transition.

Just two of the most blatant shortcomings in today's NHL game and talent.

 

[tarheelhockey]

What kind of demographic & economic factors?

About 60% as many babies being born per year as during the baby boom, and hockey gradually evolving from a blue collar sport that every boy played in his back yard to a white collar sport that is only for wealthy people at the competitive level.

The economics of hockey are a MASSIVE generational problem that has gone almost unaddressed. We are very close to seeing a golf-like demographic range in the NHL.

 

[Mbraunm]

About 60% as many babies being born per year as during the baby boom, and hockey gradually evolving from a blue collar sport that every boy played in his back yard to a white collar sport that is only for wealthy people at the competitive level.

The economics of hockey are a MASSIVE generational problem that has gone almost unaddressed. We are very close to seeing a golf-like demographic range in the NHL.

This is a huge problem which is sad. When i was a kid and played minor hockey in the 80s and 90s hockey was affordable. Me and all my friends were enrolled. Now, even though our community has doubled in size, we have less then half of the registrants than when I was a kid! Middle class families like myself do not enroll our kids anymore. So sad. An effect of this is that the talent pool that is feeding kids up into the Juniors has been significantly reduced in comparison to previous era's. Most of us are enrolling our kids in soccer instead-our community's soccer program is bursting at the seams.

 

[zcaptain]

Check out pictures of Bobby when he played Junior for the Oshawa Generals...

I think it was his 17 year old hockey picture that says it all....................

At 17 he has massive muscles coming off his shoulders.......honestly haven't seen too many if any as ripped as him.....

There is also a picture Of Gordie Howe without a shirt on.....again ripped!

And just to take it away from hockey for an second.....Arnold Palmer was a huge guy too!

I have already said my piece on Bobby Orr......put him in todays equipment and give him a new stick........

Ahh, don't get me started!

 

[BruinLVGA]

Well how about McDavid with a full head of steam, no puck, no game pressure, in the All-Star fastest skater competition being a mere fraction faster than Orr carrying the puck in a game? Explain that one.

+ Orr skates aren't exactly the same as those of today.

 

[NYCFlyer]

My father was an original sth in 1967 and I still have those front row seats. I have been to over 1000 professional games and I have seen all the greats play over the last 50 years. No one and I mean no one was even close to Bobby Orr. With modern equipment and doctors Orrs legend would be even greater in my opinion.

 

[Icing456]

This is a huge problem which is sad. When i was a kid and played minor hockey in the 80s and 90s hockey was affordable. Me and all my friends were enrolled. Now, even though our community has doubled in size, we have less then half of the registrants than when I was a kid! Middle class families like myself do not enroll our kids anymore. So sad. An effect of this is that the talent pool that is feeding kids up into the Juniors has been significantly reduced in comparison to previous era's. Most of us are enrolling our kids in soccer instead-our community's soccer program is bursting at the seams.

A few posts regarding this from your side, and totally valid. This is definitely a problem, but it doesn't result in a decrease of talent for the NHL to draw from.

I definitely don't agree with the claim that the talent pool that is supplying the Junior leagues in Canada is "significantly reduced" relative to previous era's. The high price to play the game is definitely concerning and I'll admit that maybe the "natural talent" pool has been reduced a small amount - due to some kids with superior talent/ability not being able to afford to play and progress. However, it can't just be assumed that the Gretzky/Orr-like talents only come from the middle/lower class in Canada.

In 1970, ~95% of it's players were Canadian. In 2017, this number has dropped below 50% - in the 45% range I believe. Hockey is huge in some countries in Europe. I've read, for example, that Finland could be argued to be crazier about hockey than Canada. It's population is 5.5 million & look at the national team they ice each year - considering this. The point is, it's no longer just Canada that the league is drawing from & that the league is not watered down in talent (elite or depth players) - but rather, flush with more talent than ever. This is one of the differences between the NHL in 1970 & 2017.

 

[BraveCanadian]

A few posts regarding this from your side, and totally valid. This is definitely a problem, but it doesn't result in a decrease of talent for the NHL to draw from.

That is literally exactly what it does.

I definitely don't agree with the claim that the talent pool that is supplying the Junior leagues in Canada is "significantly reduced" relative to previous era's. The high price to play the game is definitely concerning and I'll admit that maybe the "natural talent" pool has been reduced a small amount - due to some kids with superior talent/ability not being able to afford to play and progress.

The talent pool available is almost certainly less than it was in the past.

However, it can't just be assumed that the Gretzky/Orr-like talents only come from the middle/lower class in Canada.

No one said that.

In 1970, ~95% of it's players were Canadian. In 2017, this number has dropped below 50% - in the 45% range I believe. Hockey is huge in some countries in Europe. I've read, for example, that Finland could be argued to be crazier about hockey than Canada. It's population is 5.5 million & look at the national team they ice each year - considering this. The point is, it's no longer just Canada that the league is drawing from & that the league is not watered down in talent (elite or depth players) - but rather, flush with more talent than ever. This is one of the differences between the NHL in 1970 & 2017.

This has been hashed out 100 times in much more detail. I suggest you look for the other threads.

Your conclusion is most likely incorrect. You have to keep in mind there are many more teams now and also a competing professional league.

 

[Icing456]

Not so..... very few of today's players have an adequate backhand shot or pass making it easier for defencemen and goalies to defend since there are fewer options to consider. So the offence is not as wide, limited to one side. Defensively it allows clustering to the middle and goalies do not require the same lateral mobility as previously.

Defencemen today do not know how to use the angled check, rubbing out the attacker on the boards or leveraging them in open ice, stripping the puck and starting an odd man transition.

Just two of the most blatant shortcomings in today's NHL game and talent.

Not sure that being able to utilize a backhand pass or shot is a reason to consider older generations of players "more skilled." The players have no problem turning their body & using a forehand pass to get the puck to the other side of the ice quickly. There are still many displays of "skill" today where players make cross-ice passes to get a one-timer or move the puck up the ice. If anything you can maybe say that this skill isn't used in today's modern game as much as it could/should be, but this is because the defensive play has improved and passing lanes are taken away, etc. Not because the players are less skilled.

Not sure about you, but I see a lot more "lateral mobility" in today's goalies than those playing in the NHL in 1970.

With regards to the 2nd blatant shortcoming in today's NHL - players today still know how to make angled checks and rub out players along the boards. If you're referring to them doing this as a way of stripping the puck - any player would be foolish to hold onto the puck this late rather than chipping it in, or sending it around the offensive zone boards to another attacker on that side, etc.

Open ice hits aren't attempted as often because they can lead to odd-man rushes (defensive play today) - which can include a defenseman if the circumstances are right.

 

[tarheelhockey]

A few posts regarding this from your side, and totally valid. This is definitely a problem, but it doesn't result in a decrease of talent for the NHL to draw from.

I definitely don't agree with the claim that the talent pool that is supplying the Junior leagues in Canada is "significantly reduced" relative to previous era's. The high price to play the game is definitely concerning and I'll admit that maybe the "natural talent" pool has been reduced a small amount - due to some kids with superior talent/ability not being able to afford to play and progress. However, it can't just be assumed that the Gretzky/Orr-like talents only come from the middle/lower class in Canada.

Again, there are about 30-40% fewer children in the Canadian millennial generation than in the baby boom generation. And that's not taking into account how many of those millennials are first-generation Canadians from non-hockey cultures.

Then add in the fact that a rapidly shrinking fraction of children have an economic opportunity to advance in competitive hockey. The current generation was raised on $200 composite sticks, $600 skates, $8000 team fees, private coaching, airplane travel and hotel rooms for far-flung tournaments. Patrick Kane's parents spent $250,000 to get him to the NHL. For all practical purposes, the NHL is now off-limits to anyone below the upper middle class.

This is a MASSIVE problem for the league's talent pipeline. Sure they can lean more heavily on European leagues, but that doesn't equal out the effect of cutting the Canadian talent pool in half, or worse.

 

[Icing456]

LMAO you can't seriously think that Gretkzy/Orr wouldnt be AINEC best players in the league. And the reason why it's more skilled is because the lower level talent has increased. Not the elite talent. The elite talents actually gotten worse that's why we see parity in scoring and not that many dominant forwards. It's because the talent nowadays is so close together. But the elite high end talent of the league is much worse than it was. Gretzky easily hits 140+ pts in 2017. And I'd bet Orr could come close to a 100 pts, but if he doesnt he's gauranteed ppg dman plus Norris every year.

It is totally possible they could be the best players in the league today if they grew up in this era in the same environment with the same exposure that gives athletes today an advantage. But transported in a time machine as they were in 1970 = No.

 

[Icing456]

Again, there are about 30-40% fewer children in the Canadian millennial generation than in the baby boom generation. And that's not taking into account how many of those millennials are first-generation Canadians from non-hockey cultures.

Then add in the fact that a rapidly shrinking fraction of children have an economic opportunity to advance in competitive hockey. The current generation was raised on $200 composite sticks, $600 skates, $8000 team fees, private coaching, airplane travel and hotel rooms for far-flung tournaments. Patrick Kane's parents spent $250,000 to get him to the NHL. For all practical purposes, the NHL is now off-limits to anyone below the upper middle class.

This is a MASSIVE problem for the league's talent pipeline. Sure they can lean more heavily on European leagues, but that doesn't equal out the effect of cutting the Canadian talent pool in half, or worse.

Alright, there's not much I can argue here. Anyway, this doesn't justify Bobby Orr being able to dominate in 2017 if transported in a time machine from 1970. I went on a bit of a tangent by bringing this up.

The thread has gotten very long, but there was a lot of strong arguments coming from my side in the previous pages that were not being argued against well at all from your side. In my opinion, our side has already won the thread & it was over pages ago, but many of you have stuck around to continue preaching Bobby Orr and how great he was relative to his peers, or bringing up points that have already been shot down.

I'm out now.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Alright, there's not much I can argue here. Anyway, this doesn't justify Bobby Orr being able to dominate in 2017 if transported in a time machine from 1970. I went on a bit of a tangent by bringing this up.

The thread has gotten very long, but there was a lot of strong arguments coming from my side in the previous pages that were not being argued against well at all from your side. In my opinion, our side has already won the thread & it was over pages ago, but many of you have stuck around to continue preaching Bobby Orr and how great he was relative to his peers, or bringing up points that have already been shot down.

I'm out now.

WTF kind of response is this?

 

[BraveCanadian]

WTF kind of response is this?

I think it is the "I concede that my side has no actual facts for my argument but I want the last word" response.

Peace out.

 

[tarheelhockey]

You know, it's been several days since I first started commenting in this thread and we're deep into the analytical details of the issue, but I just realized I won the argument on page 4.

See ya, wouldn't wanna be ya.

 

[jniklast]

It is totally possible they could be the best players in the league today if they grew up in this era in the same environment with the same exposure that gives athletes today an advantage. But transported in a time machine as they were in 1970 = No.

But what should stop them? It has been proven in this thread that Orr skated as fast as the dates skaters today - and he did that with old equipment. On average players are probably more athletic now than 50 years ago, but the best athletes back then would still be amongst the best athletes now (just look at pictures of Howe and Orr). Also today there are enough small players or not perfect athletes that still cut it in the NHL today.
So the game changed and got faster a bit and more tactical? Probably, but if players can make the jump from juniors directly to the NHL, Orr sure as hell could do it from the NHL 45 years ago.

Teleport prime Orr, Getzky, Lemieux to today, give them a handful of games to adapt and they would dominate the league - I have no doubts about that.

 

[FoxyClean]

Part II up as this thread has reached Pg. 40. Requesting lock.