Proposal: I proposed this trade for McGinn on the Sabres boards, thoughts?

[Doogle]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2021699

A lot of them seem to like the offer, which is:
Beau Bennett RW
Ian Cole D
4th round pick

for

Jamie McGinn
6th round pick

Positives: McGinn is a solid left wing, willing to hit, is a good team guy, is more of a finisher/complementary piece than playmaker, but would provide a cheap (2.9) option to either play alongside Sid at best, or slide in on the third next to Bonino/Cullen and Fehr. It also gets us out of the Ian Cole deal, and while he still could live up to what we saw last year, it does give us 2 million in cap relief for the next two seasons if we don't resign McGinn, or if we like McGinn enough we can pay for his extension with the money we were spending on Cole. And no one wants to lose a draft pick, but if we trade late round picks to sweeten the pot we won't be losing any picks, and by the fourth a lot of picks are busting anyways.

Worst case scenario: Bennett finally stays healthy with them and becomes a regular in their top six, Cole becomes a top four defenseman, they get a really good player with out fourth round pick, McGinn sucks for us, our 6th busts; but at the very least we still get two million in cap relief.

For them, Bennett is a cheap option who could fill in their top six if healthy, or is easily dropped if not. Cole fills one their biggest holes, LD, and cheaply. If he sucks, he's fairly easily bought out, and they're a team who can afford to do that more than we can. For us, McGinn could fill a huge hole on one of our first or third left wing (and use Kunitz at the other, or another trade preferably), we need the two extra million in cap space that dropping Cole would provide long term, and if we like McGinn enough I don't see him being a winger that's going to get a monster raise. Since McGinn is playing better now, and has a more established track record, I offered the trade up of later picks in addition.

Most of them seem to like it; some would rather get a 2nd or 3rd round draft pick straight up (which I said most of us would refuse). What do we think here?

Click to read more...

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I'd like a much better guy than McGinn, even if we have to give up more and it takes longer to make a trade happen.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Is McGinn really anything better than what we have right now? I mean, he'd be nice on the 3rd line, but he's not really someone you want in your top-6. I don't really see him filling that much of a need, nor would it be wise to be investing money and assets in a guy who has a history of serious back issues.

 

[Doogle]

I'd like a much better guy than McGinn, even if we have to give up more and it takes longer to make a trade happen.

I get that. I am thinking we have a lot of money tied up in Kessel, Malkin, Crosby, Letang, Fleury, etc. and Maata is an upcoming RFA who should be seeing a fairly large raise. A more complementary player, rather than a huge blockbuster deal that takes up more cap space/costs more assets that we don't have, might be more beneficial to our team, since none of these are pieces we are going to miss especially much (and also frees us up of a deal that we don't want anymore).

I also don't think this move prevents us from making further moves, since the cap space of Bennett and Cole vs McGinn washes out, and we haven't lost Sprong, Murray, Jarry, Pouliot, or any high picks.

 

[Doogle]

Is McGinn really anything better than what we have right now? I mean, he'd be nice on the 3rd line, but he's not really someone you want in your top-6. I don't really see him filling that much of a need, nor would it be wise to be investing money and assets in a guy who has a history of serious back issues.

I don't think we would really be losing any big assets, considering Bennett hasn't stayed healthy, we've scratched Cole, and a fourth/sixth swap isn't going to kill us. And he only costs 2.9 million, and is a free agent that we would be able to resign if he works out, but could easily let walk and clear the books if not.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

I get that. I am thinking we have a lot of money tied up in Kessel, Malkin, Crosby, Letang, Fleury, etc. and Maata is an upcoming RFA who should be seeing a fairly large raise. A more complementary player, rather than a huge blockbuster deal that takes up more cap space/costs more assets that we don't have, might be more beneficial to our team, since none of these are pieces we are going to miss especially much (and also frees us up of a deal that we don't want anymore).

You move Cole, Lovejoy and Kunitz--all garbage players--and you have ~$7M freed up right there.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I don't think we would really be losing any big assets, considering Bennett hasn't stayed healthy, we've scratched Cole, and a fourth/sixth swap isn't going to kill us. And he only costs 2.9 million, and is a free agent that we would be able to resign if he works out, but could easily let walk and clear the books if not.

It's not as much about the assets as much as it's about the "why bother". Bringing in McGinn really wouldn't do much for us, so I don't really see a reason why we should trade for him.

 

[Nakawick]

I like moving Cole, but I would rather keep Bennett than McGinn and/or look for better options.

 

[Doogle]

You move Cole, Lovejoy and Kunitz--all garbage players--and you have ~$7M freed up right there.

Which is why if you make this move, you've moved one of them off the books. If McGinn helps and is worth resigning, awesome. If not, you've at the very least moved a contract you don't want and you just let McGinn walk. Lovejoy is a free agent this offseason. Kunitz with one year left can either be moved or bought out if you want, or you can just ride out the last season.

 

[Nakawick]

You move Cole, Lovejoy and Kunitz--all garbage players--and you have ~$7M freed up right there.

Kunitz and Lovejoy are not garbage. Kunitz is not as effective as the top line winger as he once was and Lovejoy is a bottom pair RHD on a good contract.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Kunitz and Lovejoy are not garbage. Kunitz is not as effective as the top line winger as he once was and Lovejoy is a bottom pair RHD on a good contract.

Yeah, no. I'll vehemently, but respectfully disagree. Kunitz is garbage in the top-9, and it's a garbage idea to pay ~$4M/yr for a 4th line player.

And Lovejoy is abysmal. He's a borderline NHLer who has been propped up by Dumo's play all season. I don't care which way he holds his stick, he's garbage.

I invite you to watch more games if you don't think those two are awful on any given shift.

 

[Doogle]

Kunitz and Lovejoy are not garbage. Kunitz is not as effective as the top line winger as he once was and Lovejoy is a bottom pair RHD on a good contract.

Yeah, I think the hate on this board is a little over the top a lot of the time.

Cole is a player who played very well for us down the stretch, and earned his extension. His stats since have indicated that might not have been a good move, but then again, maybe he's just having a bad year and his next two will be very good. Remember everyone hating Paul Martin? Not saying he's Paul Martin, but he was a former first round pick who has played well at times in the past.

Kunitz is a player who was very good, often inconsistent scoring wise but always consistent hitting/effort wise up until recently. He still hits, but he doesn't have the speed or energy to move his feet as well, and his hands were never really ever there. We need the cap space, and we want an improvement if we're going to be dominant, but a lot of teams close to the floor would probably like to take him if we gave him cheap and especially if we retained some salary, but with a NTC that's not going to happen.

Lovejoy was never spectacular, but is an ok complementary player to young offensive defenseman with talent, and provides positive leadership. I know people hate people saying that, but it is true. He helps coach up the young kids, instead of trying to trash talk them in order to get more minutes for himself like a couple other former veterans. That's huge. He's cheap, and he's probably gone after this year. Even as a healthy scratch, at his cap hit, I'd be ok with that if he helped coach the kids in practice and filled in when needed. There's no real reason to hate Lovejoy, except A. we depend on him too much (not his fault) and B. Despres (not his fault).

 

[Nakawick]

Yeah, no. I'll vehemently, but respectfully disagree. Kunitz is garbage in the top-9, and it's a garbage idea to pay ~$4M/yr for a 4th line player.

And Lovejoy is abysmal. He's a borderline NHLer who has been propped up by Dumo's play all season. I don't care which way he holds his stick, he's garbage.

I invite you to watch more games if you don't think those two are awful on any given shift.

I watch 95% of Pens games. Lovejoy in the bottom RHD is serviceable and cheap. I would even offer him the same contract. Kunitz is better than a 4th line plug. Would I upgrade at 1LW for the right deal/player? You bet.

 

[mpp9]

Is McGinn really anything better than what we have right now? I mean, he'd be nice on the 3rd line, but he's not really someone you want in your top-6. I don't really see him filling that much of a need, nor would it be wise to be investing money and assets in a guy who has a history of serious back issues.

We've got a borderline NHLer and a non-NHLer on LW right now. McGinn would look like a godsend in comparison.

He can do all the things Porter and Kuhnhackl can do and also, ya know, occasionally score.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

No. Daley is a serviceable bottom pairing d-man, and he actually brings quality attributes. Lovejoy is a never-was that we gave up for whatever we could get for him several years ago, and he's still the same useless player we gave away. Missed assignments all over the ice, no semblance of offense, out of position all the time, no semblance of physicality. He brings literally nothing to the table.

And Kunitz does nothing but take a few strides per shift and run into a guy occasionally. Notice, I didn't say hit, because he very rarely ever does so with force, or separates guys from the puck. If that's all he brings, he's a 4th liner. Kunitz actively kills plays by mishandling the puck, errand passes, and flubbed shots all the damn time, and looks lazy and out of place faaaar too frequently. If you're satisfied with his play, fine, but nobody should be.

 

[Empoleon8771]

We've got a borderline NHLer and a non-NHLer on LW right now. McGinn would look like a godsend in comparison.

He can do all the things Porter and Kuhnhackl can do and also, ya know, occasionally score.

Being better than Kuhnhackl and Porter isn't saying much

I'd rather make a trade for an actual top-6 winger than make a trade for another 3rd line rental band-aide that is just going to walk after the year. I don't view McGinn to be any better/worse than Kunitz or Hagelin and I don't see a point in wasting assets on a 3rd line rental. McGinn is just another Tlusty or Stempniak type of player, they're not going to make a difference for us and trading for them as pending UFAs is pointless.

 

[mpp9]

Being better than Kuhnhackl and Porter isn't saying much

I'd rather make a trade for an actual top-6 winger than make a trade for another 3rd line rental band-aide that is just going to walk after the year. I don't view McGinn to be any better/worse than Kunitz or Hagelin and I don't see a point in wasting assets on a 3rd line rental. McGinn is just another Tlusty or Stempniak type of player, they're not going to make a difference for us and trading for them as pending UFAs is pointless.

I'd rather get Sid's ideal fit on LW on his ELC, but beggars can't be choosers. We have a spare 2nd. And not a whole lot else to offer in terms of expendable pieces. That gets you a guy like McGinn.

I was very much in favor of signing Tlusty to a cheap 1 year deal in the summer to add some depth on LW, but McGinn's a better player, IMO. At the very least, he's a better net presence and far more willing to be a physical player.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

How about we hold on to precious assets until we find a good solution, not a "hey, he's better than Kuhn!" player who has a serious, lingering issue with his back and is a pending UFA.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDo]

How about we hold on to precious assets until we find a good solution, not a "hey, he's better than Kuhn!" player who has a serious, lingering issue with his back and is a pending UFA.

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner.

 

[joeyjake5]

Pens are playing better right now for two big reasons. They got rid of two players who brought nothing to the table and replaced them with Daley and Hags. They still have 3 crap players to get rid of in LJ, Cole, and Kunitz. If JR somehow can move any or all for a better grade of player w/O giving up futures, then this team will be that much better off. Its just that simple. But can he pull it off is the question.

 

[Doogle]

How about we hold on to precious assets until we find a good solution, not a "hey, he's better than Kuhn!" player who has a serious, lingering issue with his back and is a pending UFA.

What precious assets? A right wing, at a position we're loaded at, who can't stay healthy? A defenseman who you outright said was garbage? A fourth round pick?

We have zero depth at left wing, and we are playing minor leaguers on both the third and fourth lines. He is affordable, we would be dumping a contract we don't want, and we would have the ability to resign him to a reasonable deal without being saddled with a bad contract for a bad term. I'm not talking about trading a second round pick or Daniel Sprong, I'm talking about trading a couple of players who haven't worked out here, but still would have enough of an appeal for Buffalo to think betting on them is better than losing McGinn to free agency for nothing.

If you want to get a James Van Reimsdyk if that's even possible, fine, but you're having to expect to lose at least Sprong, Murray, and a 2017 1st. This is a lateral move, that could fill a huge hole for us and provide young potential for Buffalo (plus a guy Bylsma is familiar with in Bennett, and Cole in theory should fit very well in his system). Wouldn't cost us any assets that we're going to miss, would dump a contract we don't want. This isn't a Daniel Winnick for a second round pick move

 

[billybudd]

I'd want to know what his physical said, but the reality of this deal is that we'd be getting McGinn and a 6th round pick for a 4th round pick. This is practically a Daley for Scuderi robbery if McGinn's back holds up.

I guess the Sabers are so desperate to get Weber into the press box that they'd take on Cole's contract, but make no mistake, they get wrecked in terms of value with this proposal.

 

[Zen Arcade]

You'd think Bylsma would have some input on trades too. I doubt he'd be telling Murray glowing things about Bennett.

 

[Shady Machine]

You'd think Bylsma would have some input on trades too. I doubt he'd be telling Murray glowing things about Bennett.

Yup. Buffalo is probably the last team Bennett is getting traded to. DB is not a fan.

How about just Cole and a 3rd?

 

[mpp9]

Yup. Buffalo is probably the last team Bennett is getting traded to. DB is not a fan.

How about just Cole and a 3rd?

Yeah, if we could get a top 9 LW somehow for something around Cole+pick from a team desperate for LHD, hell yes.

Pretty good proposal the more I think about it.