I never knew Maurice Richard had issues with the league...

[danyhabsfan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cyxAORBWjc&feature=related

I love that scene.

NYR send a goon to take care of Richard and Richard put him KO.

 

[justsomeguy]

A lot has changed since then and various forms of discrimination were rampant back then in the league. I remember reading that Willie O'Ree (first black player to be called up to the NHL) said he always got the worst fan treatment when he played in Toronto and Montreal. It wasn't just anglo-NHL hates franco-Quebec, issues of identity were (and arguably are still) pretty widespread throughout the league.

Have met and spoken to Mr. O'Ree a number of times. He says that he got the worst treatment from fans in US cities. Chicago sticks out in my memory as a place where he was told to go back to picking cotton by geography-challenged fans with no knowledge of climatic conditions in New Brunswick.

His first NHL game, at the Forum in Montreal, drew no abuse from the spectators, many of whom had seen him play there with the QSHL Quebec Aces

 

[Hockeynomad]

french-canadian isn't a race. It's an ethnicity.

In Quebec, on the airwaves, Anglo-bashing is the norm.

 

[Big Phil]

There's no excuse for racism though.

No there isn't. To be fair though (and I am not French Canadian) remember a few years ago when Prospal made a slur at Brisebois? Prospal stated that he was sorry to all French Canadians but not that man (Brisebois). No one cared, but they did when Grier got a slur at him a few years back. Simon even got a suspension. Which is why I've never been a big fan of suspensions for "words" on the ice in the heat of the moment. It's almost as if French Canadians are exempt from being protected that way. That's not right. If you believe Matthew Barnaby (and I do) he'll tell you that everything on the ice is fair game save for someone's kids.

I've never been a fan of picking and choosing what can be said on the ice. When Avery said that thing about Elisha Cuthbert that was different. It was premeditated and off the ice and NOT in the heat of the moment, he practically looked into the camera when he said it. On the ice, it's different. Hey, it isn't right to bash a guy's race/culture or whatever but you're a grown man. If he says something like that - hit him. That's my theory. So it gives you even more respect for what Richard had to go through back then

 

[Big Phil]

Have met and spoken to Mr. O'Ree a number of times. He says that he got the worst treatment from fans in US cities. Chicago sticks out in my memory as a place where he was told to go back to picking cotton by geography-challenged fans with no knowledge of climatic conditions in New Brunswick.

His first NHL game, at the Forum in Montreal, drew no abuse from the spectators, many of whom had seen him play there with the QSHL Quebec Aces

I had to laugh at the Chicago fans there. Yeah, lol, the guy is playing hockey in 1958 and he's from Louisiana right?

But yeah another reason why hockey is the best sport in the world, the fans are the classiest. No doubt O'Ree faced some discrimination, but Jackie Robinson on the other hand, or Hank Aaron when he was chasing Ruth's record in 1974.........wow

I seem to remember Grant Fuhr stating that the only time his race was ever an issue was one time in the minors a comment was made

 

[Fish on The Sand]

The “Gordie Howe phantom assists†argument doesn’t stand up to any serious scrutiny.

Gordie Howe won six Art Ross trophies: 1951, 1952, 1953, 1954, 1957 and 1963. I’m assuming no Richard supporters can question three of those Art Ross trophies: 1952 (Richard finished 15th), 1957 (6th) and 1963 (out of the top twenty). Let’s look at the other three Art Ross trophies.

In 1951, Howe led the league in scoring with 86 points; Richard was second with 66 points. Howe led the league in scoring by 20 points – if Howe “stole†the Art Ross from the Rocket, he would have had to earn at least 21 phantom points in 70 games. That’s close to one phantom point every three games. I’m not saying it’s impossible, but I think it’s highly unlikely for Howe to get that many phantom points without anyone noticing.

In 1953, Howe led the league in scoring with 95 points – at the time that was the single season all-time record. Howe’s linemate Ted Lindsay was second with 71 points; Richard was third with 61 points. Howe is a staggering 34 points ahead of Richard, in a 70 game season. If Howe “stole†the Art Ross, he would have needed basically one phantom point everyone two games. Again, nothing is impossible, but Howe’s margin of victory is so enormous that it would be virtually impossible to create that many phantom points, without everyone noticing.

In 1954, Howe led the league with 81 points; Richard was second with 67 points. Howe would have needed 15 phantom points (in 70 games) to steal the Art Ross. That’s just under one point every four games. Once again, I can’t say it’s impossible, but it seems highly improbably that Howe could earn so many phantom assists without arousing a lot of suspicion.

In summary: Richard finished out of the top five in scoring during three of Howe’s six Art Ross trophies. For the other three, Howe finished so far ahead of Richard that a couple of phantom points here and there would make no difference. If the league gave the scoring title to Howe, they would have had to give him a phantom point every two, three or four games, for the length of the entire season – I think it’s nearly impossible to give one player so many fake points without anybody noticing.

Richard was probably out of the top 20 in 1963 because he had been retired for 3 years.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Damn, that's clearly two phantom assists right there. Dionne should have gotten the hart that year, he was robbed.

Gretz didn't get the Art Ross that year anyways, and I doubt those extra 2 points would have given Dionne the Hart.

 

[CoupeStanley]

I have asked others who assert there were "phanton assists" to come up with some evidence in the past and nobody has ever been able to produce any.

Fabrications from Richard fans, most likely.

While there's probably no evidence, It's no revionism from Richard fans either. Those chronicles that Richard writes in the movie, he writes them in real life too... There's some copy of them in his book (at least in the old edition that was sitting in my dad shelf).

The phantom assist theory is nothing new and was being discussed by Montreal media and the Rocket himself in the late 40s, early 50s.

 

[WalterSobchak]

Not unbelievable for some two-bit beer league. I highly doubt NHL officials would tack on unearned assists - that is a pretty serious assertion and without evidence, it is simply drivel spread by Richard fans. What would there possibly be to gain for the NHL to commit this type of fraud?

How would fans in Montreal even come up with this theory? In the 50s, hardly any games were televised - where would they have gotten their evidence? Fact is, they had no evidence. They liked to play the victim and used that victim mentality to spread a myth.

Without evidence, the "phantom assist" theory is simply BS.

Your logic is rather flawed and there is alot for the NHL to gain having an Anglo Howe be the golden child of the NHL rather than a Franco Richard.

I believe you are seriously deluding the importance of marketing, even back in the 50's.

 

[MXD]

If I would be a mod, there would be some serious butt-kicking here, and I say that with lots of respect to Dr. No.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Richard was probably out of the top 20 in 1963 because he had been retired for 3 years.

Good catch, though of course that doesn't change the substance of my argument.

 

[jkrx]

Your logic is rather flawed and there is alot for the NHL to gain having an Anglo Howe be the golden child of the NHL rather than a Franco Richard.

I believe you are seriously deluding the importance of marketing, even back in the 50's.

Then give us the evidence of these phantom assists. People says Howe got phantom assists, no evidence is presented and we should believe them? Atleast most conspiracy theories has some semi-valid piece of evidence to support it. But this is pure speculation. There is not an inch of evidence to support it whatsover, except for paranoia basically.

 

[Briere Up There*]

Your logic is rather flawed and there is alot for the NHL to gain having an Anglo Howe be the golden child of the NHL rather than a Franco Richard.

I believe you are seriously deluding the importance of marketing, even back in the 50's.

Well then believe it with no evidence other than the Montreal media 50 years ago. I'd say it's rather disrespectful to Howe to regard his dominance as a merely the puppet pulling of an Anglo-centric league.

Perhaps Gordie Howe was just a better player than Richard?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

If I would be a mod, there would be some serious butt-kicking here, and I say that with lots of respect to Dr. No.

Can you elaborate?

Despite the sensitive nature of the subject, everyone seems to be acting like an adult here.

 

[MXD]

Well...

- Comparing the Keane situation (in 1995) with the Rocket's one is ill-advised at best, as it's something between a hockey player vs. a statement of a politician. Basically, if Keane wouldn't have said a word, nobody would have cared about that. But he said something, so Keane probably EXPECTED some kind of feedback. Or should have. Richard got it coming because of something he didn't control at all (which is, being a French-speaking guy).

- Why raising the point of the phantom assists? That's irrelevant and that has absolutely nothing to do with the alleged bigotry.

- Then, another user writing something about Franco airwaves. That guy managed to be even more offtopic than the one who brought the Mike Keane point. That user also seems to forget Jack Todd's role in the whole Brisebois booing era. Todd did way more harm than anybody on the radio.

 

[seventieslord]

Your logic is rather flawed and there is alot for the NHL to gain having an Anglo Howe be the golden child of the NHL rather than a Franco Richard.

I believe you are seriously deluding the importance of marketing, even back in the 50's.

OK, then reply to the post made that breaks down Howe's art ross seasons, instead of the one you did reply to. I'd be interested to see a well-constructed rebuttal to that one.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Good catch, though of course that doesn't change the substance of my argument.

oh no doubt, I was just being a smart ass lol

 

[jkrx]

Well...

- Comparing the Keane situation (in 1995) with the Rocket's one is ill-advised at best, as it's something between a hockey player vs. a statement of a politician. Basically, if Keane wouldn't have said a word, nobody would have cared about that. But he said something, so Keane probably EXPECTED some kind of feedback. Or should have. Richard got it coming because of something he didn't control at all (which is, being a French-speaking guy).

- Why raising the point of the phantom assists? That's irrelevant and that has absolutely nothing to do with the alleged bigotry.

- Then, another user writing something about Franco airwaves. That guy managed to be even more offtopic than the one who brought the Mike Keane point. That user also seems to forget Jack Todd's role in the whole Brisebois booing era. Todd did way more harm than anybody on the radio.

The Keane reply wasn't actually a comparison to Richard but more about that the discrimination goes both ways. If I remember correctly Keane was asked if he was going to learn french and he said no (with an explination as to why). Don't see why someone should react to it at all.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Phantom Assists

The phantom assist issue was around before the Howe and Richard era. Basically certain arenas seemed to be more liberal with assists than others.

Remember seeing a break down by arena from the thirties onward in this forum within the last twelve months.

The issue then became a stand alone myth with a bit of media prodding.

 

[Not The One]

In Quebec, on the airwaves, Anglo-bashing is the norm.

What the...

I'm sure you watch a lot of Quebec media in Mississauga.

The Keane reply wasn't actually a comparison to Richard but more about that the discrimination goes both ways. If I remember correctly Keane was asked if he was going to learn french and he said no (with an explination as to why). Don't see why someone should react to it at all.

Where is the discrimination there... Was he FORCED to learn french? Was he suspended by the league? Was he assaulted on the ice because he refused to learn french?

If you want to see old examples of discrimination in action, check how many francophone players there were on the old Montreal Wanderers and Quebec Bulldogs teams. Both teams existed before the Canadiens.

 

[MXD]

The Keane reply wasn't actually a comparison to Richard but more about that the discrimination goes both ways. If I remember correctly Keane was asked if he was going to learn french and he said no (with an explination as to why). Don't see why someone should react to it at all.

That has something to do with the league or the other players?!?!?!?

I think the NHL can have some control on its players. But it just cannot have any control on Quebec's Minister of Finances. Plus, if you read the Keane comment, you'd realize it was somewhat ambiguous (I think the comment was misunderstood - he said something along the lines that nobody speaks French here, not saying much about what he meant by "here", and while I'm 100% sure he meant "the dressing room", it was misunderstood for "Quebec"). I think it was stupid from Bernard Landry to take offence (it was during the 1995 Referendum campaign, which is absolutely no excuse), but Keane should have realized that was he said wasn't really bright.

Which brings us back to the point : where's the discrimination, exactly?

That shows one thing, and only one thing : don't mix politics and hockey.

 

[MXD]

If you want to see old examples of discrimination in action, check how many francophone players there were on the old Montreal Wanderers and Quebec Bulldogs teams. Both teams existed before the Canadiens.

If anything, F-Québecois might have discovered hockey a little later than their E-Québecois counterparts. Or even than non-québecois counterparts.

That might have something to do with discrimination, but there's absolutely no evidence of that.

The first great FQ players were Didier Pitre and Georges Vézina. Lalonde, Laviolette, Corbeau were actually from Ontario, and from what I was able to gather, Lalonde barely spoke French (can't retrieve evidence of this, though I remember reading this somewhere). Aurel Joliat was an Ottawa guy.

The next FQ "star" would be... Well, maybe Sylvio Mantha, but I'm not even sure he spoke French. There would be some FQ "support players" like Albert Leduc, Johnny Gagnon and Louis Berlinguette, but no real "star". Actually, the first guy to earn a All-Star Team spot that I'm absolutely convinced was a FQ was Phil Watson. The Mantha brothers and Marty Barry might or might not be FQ's (but they're Q's...), I just don't know.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Arenas

If anything, F-Québecois might have discovered hockey a little later than their E-Québecois counterparts. Or even than non-québecois counterparts.

That might have something to do with discrimination, but there's absolutely no evidence of that.

The first great FQ players were Didier Pitre and Georges Vézina. Lalonde, Laviolette, Corbeau were actually from Ontario, and from what I was able to gather, Lalonde barely spoke French (can't retrieve evidence of this, though I remember reading this somewhere). Aurel Joliat was an Ottawa guy.

The next FQ "star" would be... Well, maybe Sylvio Mantha, but I'm not even sure he spoke French. There would be some FQ "support players" like Albert Leduc, Johnny Gagnon and Louis Berlinguette, but no real "star". Actually, the first guy to earn a All-Star Team spot that I'm absolutely convinced was a FQ was Phil Watson. The Mantha brothers and Marty Barry might or might not be FQ's (but they're Q's...), I just don't know.

The early arenas were in the central west part of Montreal - primarily English speaking. Elsewhere in Montreal and the rest of the province hockey was played on uncovered outdoor rinks so the season was much shorter and scheduling was hit and miss.

The Mantha brothers were French - St. Henri/Sud Ouest.Others who could be considered on a par with Phil Watson could be Lorne Chabot, Armand Mondou, Johnny Gagnon.

The initial boom in arena building in Quebec started after WWI and this lead to an increase in the popularity and caliber of hockey.

 

[MXD]

The Mantha brothers were French - St. Henri/Sud Ouest.Others who could be considered on a par with Phil Watson could be Lorne Chabot, Armand Mondou, Johnny Gagnon.

Mondou and Gagnon never earned a AST spot (that was my criteria for "star", sorry if it's kindof a bad one), and i was somewhat convinced that Chabot wasn't FQ. Thanks for the input on the Mantha brothers, though!

 

[reckoning]

A well-respected member of this board who used to go by the name Classic Hockey addressed the phantom assist issue a few years ago:

I'm aware of the accusation of Howe getting the extra assists. The same accusation was made against Mikita in the Chicago stadium getting phantom assists.

Anyways, during the 50's there was an analyses done on the phantom Howe assists.
First of all, you could only use points Howe earned from games from the Detroit Olympia.
Secondly, you could only use 'second' assists instead of primary assists because if there were any inconsistencies, that's where you would find them.
After the results were in, it was determined that no more than 3 or 4 of Howe's assists on goals in the Detroit Olympia would fall under the questionable category and even of they were not legitimate, and not allowed, Howe still would have won the scoring race.

I've heard the same accusation from other cities. Guy Lafleur told me he used to burn when he'd see the phantom assists that Marcel Dionne was getting in L.A.
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=206716&highlight=phantom

The HSP data should indicate if there are any players who had an abnormal amount of second assists in home games compared to their road games.

I'd wager that it's likely just a case of the scorekeeper making a honest mistake and giving Howe an assist he shouldn't have got, but someone who noticed it decided it was a conspiracy.