Hurricanes attendance rebound: the fundamentals are looking better

BKIslandersFan

F*** off
Sep 29, 2017
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I have no dog in this race so I just saw a post that contained empirical measures, you saw a post that was provocative and reacted as such. I didn't interpret his post as "We sell out games despite team being bad" ... I guess I just don't buy your main argument that a market should not support a losing team (bad product.) Supporting a team that might need that support even more than when they are winning doesn't make someone a sucker, it makes them a tried and true fan.
Sports is an entertainment product, especially in America. Like movies. You wouldn’t go watch bad movies.

These teams literally won’t stay loyal and pack up and leave at their own conveniences. See original Jets, and Nordiques, If you think continuing to give them money despite garbage product they throw your way is a good idea then you deserve bad team and you are a sucker. They. Don’t. Care. About. You.
 

Nino33

Registered User
Jul 5, 2015
1,828
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Sports is an entertainment product, especially in America. Like movies. You wouldn’t go watch bad movies.
Ah yes, the mighty Americans who never watch bad sports teams or watch bad movies :shakehead

These teams literally won’t stay loyal and pack up and leave at their own conveniences. See original Jets, and Nordiques,
Or the Hartford Whalers!


If you think continuing to give them money despite garbage product they throw your way is a good idea then you deserve bad team and you are a sucker. They. Don’t. Care. About. You.
Chicago's currently 22nd in the league in points and #1 in attendance at 107.1%
Minnesota's 21st in points and #3 in attendance at 105.3 %
You'd think based on your reasoning this wouldn't be happening, "especially in America" as you say


P.S. Many people that like watching a sport really like watching the sport and/or being a supportive fan and all that can entail, and then their team winning just makes a good thing better. Even in America
 
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BKIslandersFan

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Ah yes, the mighty Americans who never watch bad sports teams or watch bad movies :shakehead

Or the Hartford Whalers!



Chicago's currently 22nd in the league in points and #1 in attendance at 107.1%
Minnesota's 21st in points and #3 in attendance at 105.3 %
You'd think based on your reasoning this wouldn't be happening, "especially in America" as you say


P.S. Many people that like watching a sport really like watching the sport and/or being a supportive fan and all that can entail, and then their team winning just makes a good thing better. Even in America
Sure, I watch bad movies and bad sports teams. But I am not gonna keep giving money to someone who keeps making bad movies.

I mean, there you go. Sports teams are not loyal to their fans.

Let me know what Chicago’s attendance was under Bill Wirtz though. If they keep being bad the attendance number will drop, I can assure you.

You know what is dumb? Complaining about how ownership doesn’t care or keep inept management employed but still choosing to spend money anyway, giving them even less incentive to win.
 

Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
29,220
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These teams literally won’t stay loyal and pack up and leave at their own conveniences. See original Jets, and Nordiques, If you think continuing to give them money despite garbage product they throw your way is a good idea then you deserve bad team and you are a sucker. They. Don’t. Care. About. You.
Both of those had much less to do with fan support and much more to do with the hockey economics in place at the time. Neither team was competitive collecting revenue in Canadian dollars, paying player salaries in U.S. dollars, and facing a widening currency exchange gap that wasn't in their favor.
 
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zetajerk

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Jan 1, 2015
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When someone starts pulling the "you suck, this doesn't happen in the north" it's time to walk away. Arguing with xenophobes is like arguing with a cat.

Honestly, for the people who drag on the Canes, Panthers, Coyotes fans, and not the Isles, Avs, Sens, Jackets, Penguins, Hawks, Caps fans for being "fairweather"; why do you hate us? What exactly did we ever do to you? Just be different from you and like hockey? We all knew our franchises were or are in vulnerable positions, we didn't need to be reminded or taunted about Quebec ever 30 seconds. And to see other teams in traditional markets have slumping attendance and either be ignored or defended. I can't fathom being so f***ing mean and frankly downright rotten. Like people just want to see us get hurt and bathe in our tears.

Like "that'll teach you for thinking you can be hockey fans". I guess the thought of southern relocations makes northerners feel like their special status as "the hockey people" is reaffirmed and protected.
 
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GuelphStormer

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Mar 20, 2012
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Guelph, ON
When someone starts pulling the "you suck, this doesn't happen in the north" it's time to walk away. Arguing with xenophobes is like arguing with a cat.

Honestly, for the people who drag on the Canes, Panthers, Coyotes fans, and not the Isles, Avs, Sens, Jackets, Penguins, Hawks, Caps fans for being "fairweather"; why do you hate us? What exactly did we ever do to you? Just be different from you and like hockey? We all knew our franchises were or are in vulnerable positions, we didn't need to be reminded or taunted about Quebec ever 30 seconds. And to see other teams in traditional markets have slumping attendance and either be ignored or defended. I can't fathom being so ****ing mean and frankly downright rotten. Like people just want to see us get hurt and bathe in our tears.

Like "that'll teach you for thinking you can be hockey fans". I guess the thought of southern relocations makes northerners feel like their special status as "the hockey people" is reaffirmed and protected.
people hate you? i think most people don't care one way or the other.

all pro sports franchises have fairweather fans and thats fine. what's a problem for the franchise is when otherwise core fans turn fairweather when the team is losing. stay at home if you want but be aware that this will probably not help the team improve and win you back. and if you want to think fans who do support their teams during losing periods are suckers and not just die hard, core fans, that's fine too.
 

zetajerk

Registered User
Jan 1, 2015
738
589
people hate you? i think most people don't care one way or the other.

all pro sports franchises have fairweather fans and thats fine. what's a problem for the franchise is when otherwise core fans turn fairweather when the team is losing. stay at home if you want but be aware that this will probably not help the team improve and win you back. and if you want to think fans who do support their teams during losing periods are suckers and not just die hard, core fans, that's fine too.

If otherwise core fans turn fairweather or are driven away, then that's the franchise's fault, not the fans' or market's.
 
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Red Dread

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Oct 19, 2011
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all pro sports franchises have fairweather fans and thats fine. what's a problem for the franchise is when otherwise core fans turn fairweather when the team is losing. stay at home if you want but be aware that this will probably not help the team improve and win you back. and if you want to think fans who do support their teams during losing periods are suckers and not just die hard, core fans, that's fine too.

I mean, I'm a younger fan, so when the Capitals were ran by Oates and McPhee, I stopped watching regularly and thought they wouldn't ever get a Cup because they were ran by idiots. That's not close to what Canes, Yotes, Panthers, etc. fans have gone through, so I have some sympathy for them in that respect.

Even with something more similar, my family, who have been fans since 1974, stopped paying attention when they were terrible in the early 2000s. Mediocrity, or just awful, happens, and it can turn more serious fans away as well, letalone casual fans who aren't too knowledgeable of/exposed to the sport and have other, more popular competing sports available.
 
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Ted Hoffman

The other Rick Zombo
Dec 15, 2002
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Honestly, for the people who drag on the Canes, Panthers, Coyotes fans, and not the Isles, Avs, Sens, Jackets, Penguins, Hawks, Caps fans for being "fairweather"; why do you hate us? What exactly did we ever do to you?
1. You're not in Canada or the "true hockey" parts of North America.
2. You don't show undying support for hockey regardless of the quality of the product on the ice.
3. You won't pay $100 or more per ticket for an NHL regular season game, much less $250 or more.
4. Teams in that area are "stealing" money from Canadian teams. [Ignoring that Canaidan teams signed off on revenue sharing, that on occasion they've been the beneficiary of it, and that were the exchange rate to decline toward $1.60CN = $1US again - something that I don't think is that far-fetched - Canadian teams would start needing revenue sharing to keep up. Also ignoring that if all those teams moved to "more desirable" locations, there would simply be other teams requiring revenue sharing to keep up, because of how the cap system and revenue sharing are linked.]
5. Teams in that area have won Cups more recently than teams in Canada. [AKA "stealing 'our' Cups, especially when the wins come over Canada-based franchises]

Probably a number of other items, but this is a good start. If you're not following your team in a cult-like manner, you're not a "true hockey fan" and so your team should be yanked yesterday and sent to [location of real hockey fans that will support a team in a cult-like manner]. If you hit one of the top-3 items, they would find other reasons that you eventually couldn't hit [preferably using unrealistic expectations], and then it would be see? That just proves you guys shouldn't have an NHL team!

And BTW, the Penguins were a hot topic circa 2005 right after Crosby was drafted by the Pens. There was a small but quite vocal group of Canada-based posters who were pissed about Crosby having to go to a shitty, forlorn hockey market and that if Pittsburgh hockey fans were going to drop support like a hot potato just 10 or so years after back-to-back Cups, then Pittsburgh didn't deserve a hockey team. [As if any city
deserves a hockey team.] Hell, the Blues were fodder in the '05-06 season when outgoing owner Bill Laurie was torching the franchise and fans stayed away in droves to deny him any more money, and there were infrequent "they would be better off in Saskatoon" remarks lobbed.
 
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BKIslandersFan

F*** off
Sep 29, 2017
11,508
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people hate you? i think most people don't care one way or the other.

all pro sports franchises have fairweather fans and thats fine. what's a problem for the franchise is when otherwise core fans turn fairweather when the team is losing. stay at home if you want but be aware that this will probably not help the team improve and win you back. and if you want to think fans who do support their teams during losing periods are suckers and not just die hard, core fans, that's fine too.
It’s actually the other way. There is no incentive to put on better product if fans keep showing up regardless.
 
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tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
85,217
138,642
Bojangles Parking Lot
I grew up a Flyers fan following the team when Lindros didn't have concussion issues, and I was happy to have a team here in my hometown just so I could watch the Flyers in person. But getting playoff tickets and following the team in person through 3 playoff runs in their first 10 years quickly swung my fandom towards the Canes because its just more fun to be a part of that when its happening right here in your hometown. Don't get me wrong, I still like the Flyers, but if the two faced each other, I'm 100% for the Canes, because I selfishly want to keep following them and going to games.

We've had 10 years of fans not having to deal with that. We've had 10 years of fans being able to watch the Canes as their secondary team because there was no hope of the season actually doing something meaningful. We knew the last regular season game was the last game until opening day. For those dual hats, its been easy to not care about the Canes, because they didn't know what they were missing out on. Develop a team that is making the playoffs every year, bringing back that tailgating atmosphere that we were known for 10 years ago, and that changes quickly and suddenly those dual hatters realize its more fun to cheer for the home team. That's how you build the base, and that's how you grow hockey here in Raleigh. And that's what Karmanos absolutely failed at for the last decade of his ownership.

I had this exact experience, but as an NC native and local. Growing up in Charlotte, before the Canes, my local team was the Charlotte Checkers who were a Bruins affiliate. Therefore I was a Bruins fan.

When the Canes came, I had only a sort of abstract interest because they were 4 hours away and they weren’t “my team”. Of course I wanted them to do well representing NC but I wasn’t rooting hard for them or following them closely. I was too invested as a Bruins fan.

3 months after they knocked out the Bruins in 2009, I took a job in the Raleigh area. I was still primarily a Bruins fan at that point, but now the Canes were REALLY my local team. I had made Raleigh my home and I was in the trenches with the local fans. For a couple of years, I was the “dual hat” who shows up in a Canes jersey except for 2 games when I’m cheering for the road team, but as the years went on, I became more and more a Canes fan and less a Bruins fan. HF actually had a lot to do with that, but mainly it was just being immersed in the local coverage and experience. Eventually I just stopped investing myself in more than the odd glance at Bruins news, and that’s when the full conversion happened.

You put your finger on it about the culture change during that 10 years. Even though it didn’t last much longer, when I came to Raleigh the Canes were coming off a series of successes. There was real hype around the team... not PR by the organization but organic support from the community as a whole. I can’t imagine what it would have been like if I’d made that move in 2017. When the arena vibe is to have a bad time, the tickets aren’t worth buying in bulk, your old team is making playoff runs and getting outdoor games every year? Why be a STH? Why even go to a game other than to see your old team? The only real reason is to support the local hockey scene, and the sad truth is a lot of relocated hockey fans don’t give two ****s about that.

That’s part of the reason the Canes fanbase has the reputation for being smart and snarky. When you go to PNC and see only 9,000 people in the building, you’re looking at 9,000 people who are the hockey equivalent of the guy who still wears a 1997 band tour shirt and takes his vacations around their tour schedule. There’s nobody left in the building who isn’t a dedicated, hardcore fan. What’s missing is the guy who moved here 2 years ago from Pittsburgh and wears both hats, or the local sports junkie who just wants to have the hot ticket.

Funny thing is, I typed this post while walking through the PNC lot to today’s game. The tailgaters are back out. I overheard a guy in an old third jersey talking about how he went to certain games during the playoff runs. I heard a teenager complaining about how he wishes his family had season tickets. I see a lot of 2009-era jerseys all of a sudden. It’s not all the way back, but it’s not the funeral-like atmosphere of recent years. If that means a boost of 1000 fans next year, and those fans are dual-hats and general sports junkies, it’ll be incredibly important for the org on a generational level.
 

ConcernedOilersFan

Registered User
Mar 30, 2019
10
6
Sports is an entertainment product, especially in America. Like movies. You wouldn’t go watch bad movies.

These teams literally won’t stay loyal and pack up and leave at their own conveniences. See original Jets, and Nordiques, If you think continuing to give them money despite garbage product they throw your way is a good idea then you deserve bad team and you are a sucker. They. Don’t. Care. About. You.

This comment should be pinned everywhere across "traditional" markets that think that tuning in for a garbage product makes them better than non-trad markets that have some integrity not to.

I'd put extra in Oil Country, since we seem to have a lot of jealous fans of non-trad teams around here who think it's their fault Edmonton isn't a marketable city to hockey players and isn't doing itself any favors with blaming Reider, etc.
 
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Gnashville

HFBoards Hall of Famer
Jan 7, 2003
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They are successful at 15k because their tickets are much more expensive than most other teams. They are in the top 5 for average ticket price which makes up for the lower maximum attendance. Carolina is never going to pay the prices people in Winnipeg do, if they did then they would be able to get by on 14-15k attendance too.
This is patently false Winnipeg is not top 5 in ticket prices maybe not even top 10.

FYI this is for what the team charges for tickets not secondary market prices.
It’s like someone buying a new Cadillac for $37,000 then selling it for $40,000 a month later GM doesn’t get a $3,000 kickback.
 
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Nino33

Registered User
Jul 5, 2015
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441
This is patently false Winnipeg is not top 5 in ticket prices maybe not even top 10.
Do you have anything to support this?


I found Forbes article for 2013-14 that had Winnipeg at third and Carolina at 22nd
3) Winnipeg Jets - Avg Price: $276.69
22) Carolina Hurricanes - Avg Price: $120.33)

& a Statistica article from 2014-15 that had Winnipeg at 4th and Carolina at 16th (two spots below the league average) Average ticket price in the NHL by team 2014/15 | Statistic


Alas I didn't see anything referring to anything current/more recent (so much is focused on the secondary market)
 

Nino33

Registered User
Jul 5, 2015
1,828
441
A little more recent article. $73 USD is the average ticket price in Winnipeg a couple years ago https://www.bardown.com/ranking-the...ian-nhl-teams-from-highest-to-lowest-1.669444
It'd sure be nice to see the Forbes article they refer to when they say "Recently, Forbes listed its annual valuations of every NHL team, and included the average ticket price to attend a game for each organization."

Not looking for confrontation, just that I looked for a more recent Forbes article with more recent/current information and I didn't see one

Also, I found the Forbes article I think is being referred to (from last Decemeber) and it doesn't list ticket prices that I see Forbes Releases 20th Annual List of NHL Team Valuations
and if you click on "For the complete list and more" you get The NHL’s Most Valuable Teams
and there's also a "Click here to see the full list." it shows this The Business Of Hockey

Sorry if I'm missing it, but I just don't see anything regarding average ticket prices
 

HisIceness

This is Hurricanes Hockey
Sep 16, 2010
40,377
70,897
Charlotte
I love how angry some are that the Hurricanes are finally becoming a team that people are interested in again. It is fascinating to watch their bitterness grow knowing that the franchise isn't moving to Quebec City, not that it ever was but some were so blinded by their own agenda they refused to believe otherwise.
 

Gnashville

HFBoards Hall of Famer
Jan 7, 2003
13,738
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Do you have anything to support this?


I found Forbes article for 2013-14 that had Winnipeg at third and Carolina at 22nd
3) Winnipeg Jets - Avg Price: $276.69
22) Carolina Hurricanes - Avg Price: $120.33)

& a Statistica article from 2014-15 that had Winnipeg at 4th and Carolina at 16th (two spots below the league average) Average ticket price in the NHL by team 2014/15 | Statistic


Alas I didn't see anything referring to anything current/more recent (so much is focused on the secondary market)
Vivid Seats National Hockey League Ticket Pricing Preview Reveals Some Surprises for the 2017-2018 Season
This one has them 7th but I have also seen them as low as 12th. Yearly they fall somewhere in that range as prices fluctuate but the myth is they are the highest behind Toronto is false from the team prices perspective. The team no longer has it’s prices and seating chart available on the website, which makes it hard to get a correct ticket average.
 
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Nino33

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Jul 5, 2015
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Vivid Seats National Hockey League Ticket Pricing Preview Reveals Some Surprises for the 2017-2018 Season
This one has them 7th but I have also seen them as low as 12th. Yearly they fall somewhere in that range as prices fluctuate but the myth is they are the highest behind Toronto is false from the team prices perspective. The team no longer has it’s prices and seating chart available on the website, which makes it hard to get a correct ticket average.
That's a "ticket pricing preview" that is "based on Vivid Seats median ticket prices"

Is a ticket reseller like Vivid relevant to the ticket price discussion being had?
 

GuelphStormer

Registered User
Mar 20, 2012
3,811
499
Guelph, ON
not all teams release game ticket or seasons ticket sales figures so this has always been a bit hit and miss. i seem to recall something out of winnipeg the year or two after they arrived that touted their price as second only to toronto, but who knows that that was . i sense getting average primary ticket sales information now may be even more difficult, given how some tix are being sold on dynamic pricing (literally changes by the minute). secondary market figures are sketchy but sometimes better than nothing to give loose rankings.
 

Ahoy there

Always in control of my stick
Nov 10, 2018
1,261
4,274
NC via WI
I would love to see QC get a franchise (not by moving the Canes though.) Canada is extremely important to hockey.

I know money drives the decisions, and seeing the bills are real and TV rev is of utmost importance, but man QC having a team is so good for so many reasons.
 

blueandgoldguy

Registered User
Oct 8, 2010
5,284
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Greg's River Heights
Quebec City is likely to continue cheering for the relocation of a struggling team because it seems fairly clear that they will not get one though expansion. They seem to be holdover or threat for current teams that are struggling with financing for a new arena, teams requiring new investors/owners and/or teams requiring a massive refurbishment to their current arena. There is no other option for them. It is not that difficult to understand. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

As for Carolina, it is nice to see the attendance bump. For those who think it is not a substantive increase, consider there is always a lag between a large attendance increase and a team's success. Usually a larger bump occurs the following season as more people are apt to purchase season tickets/mini-packs with the team's previous success fresh in their minds. With more commitments it means there are fewer individual game tickets to sell.

I can see Carolina's average increase to 16,000 - 16,500 per game next season.
 
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NCRanger

Bettman's Enemy
Feb 4, 2007
5,443
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I do think the Hurricanes making the playoffs this season is essential for the continued attendance bump.

Especially now with three teams of the larger groups of relocated fans (Rangers, Hawks, Wings) potentially going through a long rebuild process.
 
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Rich Nixon

No Prior Knowledge of "Flyers"
Jul 11, 2006
14,992
19,029
Key Biscayne
Chicago's currently 22nd in the league in points and #1 in attendance at 107.1%

Dunno what you're looking at, but those numbers are kinda unreliable. Most sources (ESPN, Hockey DB) have some out of date arena capacities, and don't count outdoor games differently. The Flyers and Blackhawks both have a 70,000+ attendance "home game" pulling their numbers way up (if you check 2014, when Chicago last hosted an outdoor game, you'll see a similar phenomenon). Also the Jets, Panthers, and Devils will have a "home game" in a sub-14,000 capacity European arena counted against their totals.

Both Chicago and Philadelphia are still doing decently attendence-wise despite down years for their teams, but their arenas are the second- and third-largest by capacity in the league...Chicago's significantly above that average capacity thanks to the Winter Classic, and the Flyers are at 98% including a Stadium Series game that held as many fans as three and a half standard home games...which somewhat masks the fact that they've played in front of some pretty sparse crowds this year, by their standards.
 
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