Proposal: Howard to Sharks

[mondo3]

Jones is mediocre and Sharks might want to go for it this year.
Would either of these 2 trades work? Overpay/Underpay?

1. 1st round pick
2. 2nd round pick + Chmelevski +Heed

Click to read more...

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

The Sharks organization, for right or wrong, has full confidence in the goaltending. They won’t be trading for Howard.

 

[BillR10]

The sharks believe in Jones. 0 chance they give up this type of collateral for a goalie. If they go for a goalie expect a low cost 2016 Reimer type trade to upgrade on Dell if they lost faith in him.

 

[Oddbob]

The Sharks organization, for right or wrong, has full confidence in the goaltending. They won’t be trading for Howard.

They have full confidence in a starter with an .896 sv%? I thought they were trying to win the Cup? The Flyers are a team who never learns when it comes to goaltending, and it has cost them lots of success over the years, the Sharks shouldn't follow suit. Not saying Howard is the answer, but he is much better than Jones, as even when he isn't awesome, he is not usually the one costing the Wings any wins. The Sharks should definitely be in on someone!

 

[WingsMJN2965]

They have full confidence in a starter with an .896 sv%? I thought they were trying to win the Cup? The Flyers are a team who never learns when it comes to goaltending, and it has cost them lots of success over the years, the Sharks shouldn't follow suit. Not saying Howard is the answer, but he is much better than Jones, as even when he isn't awesome, he is not usually the one costing the Wings any wins. The Sharks should definitely be in on someone!

For what it's worth, he did say, "For right or wrong."

 

[Oddbob]

For what it's worth, he did say, "For right or wrong."

True, he did!

 

[Pinkfloyd]

They have full confidence in a starter with an .896 sv%? I thought they were trying to win the Cup? The Flyers are a team who never learns when it comes to goaltending, and it has cost them lots of success over the years, the Sharks shouldn't follow suit. Not saying Howard is the answer, but he is much better than Jones, as even when he isn't awesome, he is not usually the one costing the Wings any wins. The Sharks should definitely be in on someone!

Yeah they do because his save percentage isn't indicative of his play. It's more indicative of the team's defensive play for most of the year. Plus Jones has a lot of quality playoff performances that they're going to give him rope for. Nobody that isn't an elite goalie, to which Howard is not, was going to do better as San Jose's goalie this year really.

 

[DRW204]

First round pick is an overpay for a TDL goalie imo

And the Sharks don't have a first till like 2023?

 

[Oddbob]

Yeah they do because his save percentage isn't indicative of his play. It's more indicative of the team's defensive play for most of the year. Plus Jones has a lot of quality playoff performances that they're going to give him rope for. Nobody that isn't an elite goalie, to which Howard is not, was going to do better as San Jose's goalie this year really.

This is not true. If his save percentage was .910 ish I would agree, but not when he is under .900. His .896 save percentage is incredibly indicative of his play at that number, whereas his win total is inflated because he plays behind a darn good team, defensive issues or not.

Also, many goalies would have better numbers than that, as it literally because of how low it is, is so easy to top.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Yeah they do because his save percentage isn't indicative of his play. It's more indicative of the team's defensive play for most of the year. Plus Jones has a lot of quality playoff performances that they're going to give him rope for. Nobody that isn't an elite goalie, to which Howard is not, was going to do better as San Jose's goalie this year really.

I agree with the gist of this post but not the last portion. There are plenty of non-elite goaltenders who would have done better than Jones has this season.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

This is not true. If his save percentage was .910 ish I would agree, but not when he is under .900. His .896 save percentage is incredibly indicative of his play at that number, whereas his win total is inflated because he plays behind a darn good team, defensive issues or not.

Also, many goalies would have better numbers than that, as it literally because of how low it is, is so easy to top.

You're just keeping the look at the numbers and not at all looking at the context of the goals and what happens on the ice. The Sharks gave up way too many odd-man rushes and breakaways relative to most other teams. When the Sharks limit those opportunities, Jones has been good. When the Sharks commit to defense, they're practically unbeatable but it has been more the team defense rather than the goaltending. It's the reason why it doesn't change when Dell is in net. It won't change regardless of who is in net unless they're elite or having an elite year. Howard just isn't that guy. You can't just assume anyone coming in is going to maintain their save percentage on a team that plays or at least did play the first half of the year a hyper-aggressive style that gives up odd-man rushes way too many times in a game.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I agree with the gist of this post but not the last portion. There are plenty of non-elite goaltenders who would have done better than Jones has this season.

I disagree...not facing what the goaltending was facing this season. The amount and quality of opportunities against the first half of the year was significantly higher than normal even for a high offense year in the league.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

I disagree...not facing what the goaltending was facing this season. The amount and quality of opportunities against the first half of the year was significantly higher than normal even for a high offense year in the league.

I agree about the chances against but Jones still did worse against them than an average goaltender would.

There are statistics that account for shot location and quality and such and they still list Jones as one of the NHL’s worst goaltenders and most largely negative impactful players this season. I don’t entirely agree with the statistics but I know that they’re completely objective and I don’t think they’re that far off.

The one thing I will say about Jones is that when the team has played strong defense, he has generally given the team a chance to win.

 

[Juxtaposer]

Would love it but we can’t move Jones.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I agree about the chances against but Jones still did worse against them than an average goaltender would.

There are statistics that account for shot location and quality and such and they still list Jones as one of the NHL’s worst goaltenders and most largely negative impactful players this season. I don’t entirely agree with the statistics but I know that they’re completely objective and I don’t think they’re that far off.

The one thing I will say about Jones is that when the team has played strong defense, he has generally given the team a chance to win.

If you put an average goalie in that crease, their numbers would have been worse. Shot location is only one piece of the puzzle when it comes to how dangerous it is. It's easier to stop a shot in the slot when there's sticks around and traffic as opposed to the same location but on a clean breakaway or a two-on-one. Those stats don't really account for that.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

If you put an average goalie in that crease, their numbers would have been worse. Shot location is only one piece of the puzzle when it comes to how dangerous it is. It's easier to stop a shot in the slot when there's sticks around and traffic as opposed to the same location but on a clean breakaway or a two-on-one. Those stats don't really account for that.

I agree there are certain things that those stats don’t account for and I agree the stats look worse for Jones than he really was, but I still believe he was notably below average and that plenty of non-elite goaltenders would have done better in his position. Most viewers tend to agree.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

I agree there are certain things that those stats don’t account for and I agree the stats look worse for Jones than he really was, but I still believe he was notably below average and that plenty of non-elite goaltenders would have done better in his position. Most viewers tend to agree.

Most viewers tend to be overly critical of the goaltending position as well out of habit.

 

[Oddbob]

You're just keeping the look at the numbers and not at all looking at the context of the goals and what happens on the ice. The Sharks gave up way too many odd-man rushes and breakaways relative to most other teams. When the Sharks limit those opportunities, Jones has been good. When the Sharks commit to defense, they're practically unbeatable but it has been more the team defense rather than the goaltending. It's the reason why it doesn't change when Dell is in net. It won't change regardless of who is in net unless they're elite or having an elite year. Howard just isn't that guy. You can't just assume anyone coming in is going to maintain their save percentage on a team that plays or at least did play the first half of the year a hyper-aggressive style that gives up odd-man rushes way too many times in a game.

Bringing up Dell is my point though, as he is a backup netminder, so it changing or not when he is in or out, likely isn't going to be better, seeing as Jones is the starter. I don't need to watch the games to know, that .896 is bad, and would be improved on by many of the netminders on other teams. Also, not saying Howard is the answer, but he is better than Jones, and Howard plays in front of a much MUCH worse blueline than you have in San Jose. Look at Bernier, he has been largely brutal for us this year, and has around .895 or something maybe a little lower even, while Howard, is .915 or so, with our train wreck of a blueline and poor offense. How well he has played this year, if he was with San Jose, you guys are likely fighting TB for top spot right now. .895 was good back in the 90s, not nowadays, and I speak from experience. Mrazek was putting up .895 when we traded him and it very much showed how poor he was playing. In today's NHL, poor performance goalies post something like .905-.910 on a bad team, and on a good team, they put up at least .915 if they aren't playing great.

It is also fine if you like Jones, I am simply saying he can't be playing all that well, with that stat line.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

Bringing up Dell is my point though, as he is a backup netminder, so it changing or not when he is in or out, likely isn't going to be better, seeing as Jones is the starter. I don't need to watch the games to know, that .896 is bad, and would be improved on by many of the netminders on other teams. Also, not saying Howard is the answer, but he is better than Jones, and Howard plays in front of a much MUCH worse blueline than you have in San Jose. Look at Bernier, he has been largely brutal for us this year, and has around .895 or something maybe a little lower even, while Howard, is .915 or so, with our train wreck of a blueline and poor offense. How well he has played this year, if he was with San Jose, you guys are likely fighting TB for top spot right now. .895 was good back in the 90s, not nowadays, and I speak from experience. Mrazek was putting up .895 when we traded him and it very much showed how poor he was playing. In today's NHL, poor performance goalies post something like .905-.910 on a bad team, and on a good team, they put up at least .915 if they aren't playing great.

It is also fine if you like Jones, I am simply saying he can't be playing all that well, with that stat line.

You said all you needed to say for me to dismiss you when you say you don't need to watch the games to know. To completely disregard context is to be willfully ignorant. .896 is meaningless without the context. Detroit may have inferior talent but they also don't play a style that involves a heavy amount of gambling and cheating like the Sharks did hanging their goaltending out to dry. Talent only means something in this context if you understand how they're being utilized.

I don't like or dislike Jones. I just know how things played out here and even the players and coaches know it wasn't the goaltending's fault when the Sharks give up 4, 5, or 6 goals in games for stretches at a time. Players you'd expect to cover for their own but coaches have no problems calling out goalies when they aren't getting the job done. Jones certainly lets in his fair share of softies like every goalie does but he's not the reason why they give up so many goals when they do. Again, no non-elite goalies are putting up better numbers behind the Sharks defense this year. The opportunities against were too many and too good a quality for any goalie to hold up being hung out to dry regularly while they were figuring it out. It's not an accident that the goaltending has looked good when the defense has supported them.

 

[ThorNton Apologist]

Could the sharks use a rental goalie for some insurance? Sure.

Would they be willing to pay the price mentioned in OP? Absolutely not

 

[Oddbob]

You said all you needed to say for me to dismiss you when you say you don't need to watch the games to know. To completely disregard context is to be willfully ignorant. .896 is meaningless without the context. Detroit may have inferior talent but they also don't play a style that involves a heavy amount of gambling and cheating like the Sharks did hanging their goaltending out to dry. Talent only means something in this context if you understand how they're being utilized.

I don't like or dislike Jones. I just know how things played out here and even the players and coaches know it wasn't the goaltending's fault when the Sharks give up 4, 5, or 6 goals in games for stretches at a time. Players you'd expect to cover for their own but coaches have no problems calling out goalies when they aren't getting the job done. Jones certainly lets in his fair share of softies like every goalie does but he's not the reason why they give up so many goals when they do. Again, no non-elite goalies are putting up better numbers behind the Sharks defense this year. The opportunities against were too many and too good a quality for any goalie to hold up being hung out to dry regularly while they were figuring it out. It's not an accident that the goaltending has looked good when the defense has supported them.

And again I say, many non elite goalies play not only better, but much better than Jones on the 18-19 Sharks. You keep bringing up blown coverage and stuff, have you seen how many chances that are of high quality that we give up, I guarantee it is more than your team, more offensive or not. There are many nights where we are all over are zone with guys nowhere near where they should be. There are also other high octane teams in this league, yet among all playoff team goalies, Jones is not only bad, he is among the worst, and the stats back this up. Dismiss me all you want because I can't watch every game for every team, and average performance by any goalie, elite or not on that team, puts up better numbers. When we were a more offensive team, when Howard came up, and he was only playing so so, he put up numbers like .906 and .910 and that was pretty indicative of his performance in those times, so having such a bad save percentage is indicative whether you watch or not.

Like I said earlier, if he had a not so great save percentage of .910 which is largely average, than I would agree, it looks worse than it is. However 910 down to 896 is a massive difference, and I am confident he has probably cost you more games than he has won for you, from having played well.

 

[Hobnobs]

I disagree...not facing what the goaltending was facing this season. The amount and quality of opportunities against the first half of the year was significantly higher than normal even for a high offense year in the league.

And you think Howard has seen less quality opportunities on him. Howards been playing behind an injured and/or young defense and has seen about the same type of quality shots against him as Jones. Yet has .916. You either forgot or are purposely ignoring a lot of the soft goals Jones has let in this season. He's just not been that good.

I will say though that he seemedd to have picked up a bit lately. But come on. You can't say its not the goalies fault when he has picked up multiple sub .800 games.

 

[greasysnapper]

I'd rather the Sharks give Korenar a game or 2 in the coming weeks and see how he handles things in case of emergency during the playoffs. Kids been absolutely outstanding in the AHL. I think he has the ability to dethrone Jones in the next 2-3 years. Even Bibeau's been playing well. Yes this look like a great year for the Sharks, but I don't know if that's an area they necessarily need to fix externally, and goaltending at the NHL level hasn't been great so that's saying something. If they were to blow a high pick, I'd rather see them just go ham and make a forward add and have the ability to roll 4 deadly lines, or get a vet that can maybe upgrade on Ryan/Simek (who I've liked, but I think you can upgrade there for cheap).