How would you define an International "Best on Best" tournament?

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tommygunn

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Right, but 1 or 2 players missing shouldn't make a difference......especially when those players likely wouldn't have been key players. This happens in every tournament.

It's hardly like Fetisov missing 1984 Canada Cup....or a whole team (Slovakia) missing a tournament.
Before the '72 Summit Series, nobody would have said Paul Henderson was going to be a key player.. :)

But, my point isn't that the results would have been any different. Maybe they would have been, maybe they wouldn't have been.. it's all conjencture. My point is that it was a team of NHL All-Stars and not Team Canada.. and not all Canadians were available for selection to the team. Those are indisputable facts. :nod:


I doubt taking Salming out of the line-up would have done much in terms of changing chemistry.;)
Taking the 3 Swedes out and replacing them with 3 Canadians (making it a Team Canada as some are soooo endlessly trying to make it into) would most certainly have changed the team chemistry. The same would be said for any country in the world. ;)
 

tommygunn

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*IRONY ALERT*
Sure we are. Have got nothing better to do with my life, you know. Are you and Mr Kanadensisk the same person?
Hahaha. Jeez.. the reason I said that was because my question was directed at YMB29.. you answered it, and your names are quite unique.. and similar to each other.

You know, I'm not claiming that we should call NHL All Stars [now afterwards] Team Canada..
:thumbu:

That is the only point I was making..

However, I'm not too crazy about the way some of you try to sweep that series under the carpet, so to speak...
In no way am I trying "to sweep that series under the carpet".. it's just that it wasn't Team Canada that was participating in it.
 

Zine

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But, my point isn't that the results would have been any different. Maybe they would have been, maybe they wouldn't have been.. it's all conjencture. My point is that it was a team of NHL All-Stars and not Team Canada.. and not all Canadians were available for selection to the team. Those are indisputable facts. :nod:

Oh c'mon now. You're like that lawyer who, with a mountain of evidence against them, gets their client off on a technicality or obscure loophole.:D

Fact - for all intents and purposes Challenge Cup was a USSR/Team Canada matchup.....and it certainly was viewed as such at the time (as proven by opinions of Robinson, Irvin, Orr, Hodge, Meeker, etc.).

It's no different than how Canada considers 2002 Gold as one of its greater 'best v best' achievements. Yet, technically speaking, that tournament wasn't a true 'best v best' without Slovakia's elite allowed to participate. This is also an indisputable fact.

Too often minute facts are used by those seeking to discredit big picture common sense.:nod:
 

tommygunn

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Oh c'mon now. You're like that lawyer who, with a mountain of evidence against them, gets their client off on a technicality or obscure loophole.:D
At least now you're realizing I'd win the case.. so that's a start. :handclap:

You're like the DA who loses his job after repeated attempts to bring the same outlandish case before the courts, a case that has no merit and continually gets thrown out.. :laugh:

Hopefully you come to your senses and stop, before all respect is lost.. ;)
 

McGuillicuddy

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However, I'm not too crazy about the way some of you try to sweep that series under the carpet, so to speak. One can certainly bring it up, when we are discussing - or arguing whatever - about the superiority of Canadian or Soviet hockey. For the record, I don't think Soviet hockey ever surpassed Canadian hockey, as in that they had more great players or that the Soviet league was better than the NHL, but the fact seems to be that in 1978-83 (when Soviet hockey was at its strongest with the little exception in '80), the Canadians could not assemble a team that could beat the Soviets with any regularity, or at least there is little proof of it.

Hang on, we only have data points from 1979 and 1981, so shouldn't the above statement be limited to that 3 year span?
 

YMB29

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Sep 25, 2006
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Sorry, I thought you were knowledgable of international hockey, not just Russian/Soviet hockey. Sorry to ask something you didn't know the answer to.
I am sure you know how many players were missing for each country in every one of those tournaments...


For the millionth time, it was the NHL All-Stars vs. the Soviet National Team.

Just to humour you though... regarding the "both countries had access to their best players" comment... you actually believe that Team NHL had access to Wayne Gretzky et. al that were playing in the WHA at the time? Wow.. :help:
I thought the best Canadians played in the NHL...
You are just looking for excuses...


Tardif, Real Cloutier, and yes Gretzky would have easily made a Team Canada lineup over a guy like Don Marcotte. :nod:
This is according to you...


Not to mention (with apologies to the 3 Swedes) what having an all-Canadian team would have done for the chemistry of the team... :thumbu:
Yes Hedberg and Nilsson sitting on the bench most of the time really messed up the chemistry... :rolleyes:


Just thinking back to a quote, didn't Tretiak consider the Canada Cups to be a more prolific victory over the Olympics? This would make me believe he too realized he wasn't truly the best in the world until he defeated the best Canadian team. This should end any argument some people had that the Canada/World Cups were not best on best.
Where is the quote?
No one here said that they were not "best on best", just not all of them.


Also in the World Cup in 1996 Canada did not have a lot of great players there. Lemieux, Bourque, Roy, Francis, MacInnis, Kariya were players that were not on the team because of injury, lack of interest and not being picked. That being said Canada still had a very good team
Same for Russia (plus the team was a mess), but yes that should not be an excuse.


Beating Canada 3 out of 4 games in '96 was possibly the single biggest international acheivement of any team outside of Canada. People can say what they will about the CCup/WCup but we always sent our best team and our players cared a lot about winning. In hindsight beating us three times was pretty unbelievable.
There is that ethnocentrism showing again...


But, my point isn't that the results would have been any different. Maybe they would have been, maybe they wouldn't have been.. it's all conjencture. My point is that it was a team of NHL All-Stars and not Team Canada.. and not all Canadians were available for selection to the team. Those are indisputable facts. :nod:
No those are excuses...
The point is that it was almost completely Canadian players vs. Soviet players and you can't just ignore this series if you are talking about "best on best" results.
 

tommygunn

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I thought the best Canadians played in the NHL...
Most did. But, you might want to brush up on your history and educate yourself on the WHA. ;)


Yes Hedberg and Nilsson sitting on the bench most of the time really messed up the chemistry... :rolleyes:
You obviously lack understanding on the concept of team chemistry, especially when it relates to national pride... something I'm surprised some fans of the late '70's Soviet teams are struggling to grasp.


The point is that it was almost completely Canadian players..
Finally..
:handclap:
 

Zine

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At least now you're realizing I'd win the case.. so that's a start. :handclap:

You're like the DA who loses his job after repeated attempts to bring the same outlandish case before the courts, a case that has no merit and continually gets thrown out.. :laugh:

Hopefully you come to your senses and stop, before all respect is lost.. ;)

No. The Challenge Cup was, at it’s core, a USSR/Team Canada series……and it certainly considered as such based on numerous interviews and comments from influential individuals.
And someone on a message board contradicting these individuals isn't going to change the fact.;)

Using technicalities to discredit a Canadian loss to USSR is an excuse. Any and every tournament can be discredited if we start going down that path.
 

Mr Kanadensisk

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I am sure you know how many players were missing for each country in every one of those tournaments...

Most of them yes because I was a big fan of the 11 tournaments identified in this thread. Look you are obviously a big fan of the USSR and Russia and there is nothing wrong with that, it just means we have to take whatever you say with a grain of salt.

There is that ethnocentrism showing again...

I don't know if I'm being ethnocentric in saying this but according to the IIHF's own numbers North Americans account for around 67% of the world's hockey players, which might explain why they have been the most dominant teams at the elite level.
 
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tommygunn

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Using technicalities to discredit a Canadian loss to USSR is an excuse.
Two points to make here..

One.. it's not a technicality.. it's a fact that it was an NHL All-Star team and not Team Canada.

And two.. I never once have shown that I'm trying to discredit the USSR win. It's just that the victory was against an NHL All-Star team and not Team Canada.

I'll leave you to continue to embarrass yourself with your wishful thinking to the contrary.. :facepalm:
 

YMB29

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Most did. But, you might want to brush up on your history and educate yourself on the WHA. ;)
This was a factor in 72, not 79. I never heard of this being an issue in 79. I guess this will have to be added to the list of excuses for the failure...
You think two or three players would have made a difference? Bowman thought otherwise:
When the series was over, Bowman was awestruck. He didn't even bother to single out specific players who might have helped or hurt the NHL. "I don't think two or three men could have made a difference"
www.1972summitseries.com/1979ChallengeCup/1979article1.html


You obviously lack understanding on the concept of team chemistry, especially when it relates to national pride... something I'm surprised some fans of the late '70's Soviet teams are struggling to grasp.
There was no lack of national pride as was mentioned before...


Most of them yes because I was a big fan of the 11 tournaments identified in this thread. Look you are obviously a big fan of the USSR and Russia and there is nothing wrong with that, it just means we have to take whatever you say with a grain of salt.
And you are telling me this? :laugh:
One thing is being a fan, another is being a biased homer, which you have proved to be...
And you have shown that you don't know much about the other teams besides Canada.


I don't know if I'm being ethnocentric in saying this but according to the IIHF's own numbers North Americans account for around 67% of the world's hockey players, which might explain why they have been the most dominant teams at the elite level.
So now it is about the current player numbers?


I'll leave you to continue to embarrass yourself with your wishful thinking to the contrary.. :facepalm:
Yes I think it is time for you to stop embarrassing yourself with your excuses...
 

tommygunn

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I guess this will have to be added to the list of excuses for the failure...
You think two or three players would have made a difference?

Talk about embarrassing yourself... :facepalm:
You're either not reading or you simply cannot comprehend what I post.. :help:

Repeated (and bolded to ephasize):

Before the '72 Summit Series, nobody would have said Paul Henderson was going to be a key player.. :)

But, my point isn't that the results would have been any different. Maybe they would have been, maybe they wouldn't have been.. it's all conjencture. My point is that it was a team of NHL All-Stars and not Team Canada.. and not all Canadians were available for selection to the team. Those are indisputable facts. :nod:

I never once have shown that I'm trying to discredit the USSR win. It's just that the victory was against an NHL All-Star team and not Team Canada.
 

McGuillicuddy

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What I think YMB29/Zine et al. would like us to say - and I'm sure I'll be haughtily corrected if I'm wrong - is that as Canadians we should consider the USSR victory in the Challenge Cup on par with a victory in other best-on-best tournaments such as the Canada Cup or Olympics.

To this I will respond with 2 points:

i) I will grant you that the Challenge Cup can certainly be considered a victory for Soviet hockey, and an indicator of the strength of the Soviet squad of that era. However, there is no way that an isolated pair of games against a haphazardly assembled squad of mostly Canadians can possibly be considered on equal footing to something like the Canada Cup/Olympics where all teams play several games against multiple opponents, and have an opportunity to resemble a cohesive team unit by the time the finals are reached.

ii) Even if we do make the riotously laughable concession that the Challenge Cup can be considered equal to a Canada Cup/Olympics, you will still find that Canada still has a convincingly better record than the Soviets/Russia in best-on-best competition. I don't even think this is an arguable point.

And just because I'm on a roll:

ii-a) How can you possibly ask us to concede that the Challenge Cup is a valid best-on-best competition while you will not give full credit to Canada for the victory in 1976? That is hypocrisy of the highest degree.
 

Zine

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Talk about embarrassing yourself... :facepalm:
You're either not reading or you simply cannot comprehend what I post.. :help:

Repeated (and bolded to ephasize):


If you are giving full credit to Soviets and saying your point isn't about results, why are you emphasizing a (supposed) lack of chemistry on Team Canada/NHL?

Chemistry has nothing to do with the opinion that, with 3 Swedes, Team NHL was not Team Canada.
By citing a lack of chemistry, you're simply inferring that results could have been different. There's no other reason to bring up a performance based element like team chemistry.


These 2 quotes look like excuses to me.:nod:

Not to mention (with apologies to the 3 Swedes) what having an all-Canadian team would have done for the chemistry of the team... :thumbu:
Taking the 3 Swedes out and replacing them with 3 Canadians (making it a Team Canada as some are soooo endlessly trying to make it into) would most certainly have changed the team chemistry. The same would be said for any country in the world. ;)
 

Zine

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What I think YMB29/Zine et al. would like us to say - and I'm sure I'll be haughtily corrected if I'm wrong - is that as Canadians we should consider the USSR victory in the Challenge Cup on par with a victory in other best-on-best tournaments such as the Canada Cup or Olympics.

To this I will respond with 2 points:

i) I will grant you that the Challenge Cup can certainly be considered a victory for Soviet hockey, and an indicator of the strength of the Soviet squad of that era. However, there is no way that an isolated pair of games against a haphazardly assembled squad of mostly Canadians can possibly be considered on equal footing to something like the Canada Cup/Olympics where all teams play several games against multiple opponents, and have an opportunity to resemble a cohesive team unit by the time the finals are reached.

ii) Even if we do make the riotously laughable concession that the Challenge Cup can be considered equal to a Canada Cup/Olympics, you will still find that Canada still has a convincingly better record than the Soviets/Russia in best-on-best competition. I don't even think this is an arguable point.

And just because I'm on a roll:

ii-a) How can you possibly ask us to concede that the Challenge Cup is a valid best-on-best competition while you will not give full credit to Canada for the victory in 1976? That is hypocrisy of the highest degree.


This thread has evolved (or regressed:laugh:) into 2 different topics…..the legitimacy of a tournament and the legitimacy of a series.

The Challenge Cup is a valid ‘best v best’ series between two counties; however, it’s not (nor should it be compared to) a best v best tournament like world Cup or Olympics.
I’ve only compared the two when discussing Soviet/Canada dominance relative to each other…which is a totally valid comparison. Same can be said for the Summit Series.

Is a 2 country series on par with Olympics or World Cup? That’s probably left up to individual opinion.
I believe most Canadians consider the Summit Series a greater achievement than any Olympics or World Cup.:dunno:
 
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tommygunn

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By citing a lack of chemistry, you're simply inferring that results could have been different.

Yep, I already said that.. in the post you just quoted! :help:

Bolded..

Before the '72 Summit Series, nobody would have said Paul Henderson was going to be a key player.. :)

But, my point isn't that the results would have been any different. Maybe they would have been, maybe they wouldn't have been.. it's all conjencture. My point is that it was a team of NHL All-Stars and not Team Canada.. and not all Canadians were available for selection to the team. Those are indisputable facts. :nod:
 

McGuillicuddy

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This thread has evolved (or regressed:laugh:)

Regressed. Definitely regressed :).

Is a 2 country series on par with Olympics or World Cup? That’s probably left up to individual opinion.
I believe most Canadians consider the Summit Series a greater achievement than any Olympics or World Cup.:dunno:

That's a hard one to answer. I think Canadians would consider the Summit Series more of a defining moment for the country than the Olympics, but I don't think it would be considered a 'greater achievement'.
 

YMB29

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Talk about embarrassing yourself... :facepalm:
You're either not reading or you simply cannot comprehend what I post.. :help:

Repeated (and bolded to ephasize):
You contradict yourself. :shakehead
First you say that Canada did not have all of its best because some played in the WHA, which implies that Canada was weaker and therefore would have done better with those players. Then you say that the result might not have been different or might have been different...



I will grant you that the Challenge Cup can certainly be considered a victory for Soviet hockey, and an indicator of the strength of the Soviet squad of that era. However, there is no way that an isolated pair of games against a haphazardly assembled squad of mostly Canadians can possibly be considered on equal footing to something like the Canada Cup/Olympics where all teams play several games against multiple opponents, and have an opportunity to resemble a cohesive team unit by the time the finals are reached.
It was not a tournament like the Canada Cup, but it was a series like the 72 Summit Series...


Canada still has a convincingly better record than the Soviets/Russia in best-on-best competition. I don't even think this is an arguable point.
Better than Russia but not the USSR.
Head to head in "best on best" games Canada has only one more win, but that is because of CC87 and you know how they won that...
The Soviet wins in 79 and 81 were blowouts, while Canada's were mostly very close and controversial.
Also all the games except 4 in 72 were played in Canada or the US. It would have been interesting to see how Canada's best (during the late 70's or 80's) would have looked like against the USSR on IIHF ice and with IIHF rules/referees...


How can you possibly ask us to concede that the Challenge Cup is a valid best-on-best competition while you will not give full credit to Canada for the victory in 1976? That is hypocrisy of the highest degree.
Because the best Canadian players played in 79, but in 76 many of the best Soviets did not. You could not figure that out still, after pages of discussing this?
 

McGuillicuddy

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Better than Russia but not the USSR.
Head to head in "best on best" games Canada has only one more win, but that is because of CC87 and you know how they won that...
The Soviet wins in 79 and 81 were blowouts, while Canada's were mostly very close and controversial.

I'd like to summarize my response as follows:

"Wait, what??"

Let's say just for the sake of simplicity that we treat all series/tournaments involving the best players from both Canada and USSR/Russia on equal footing. So for just this one time let's say Challenge Cup = Canada Cup = Olympics = Summit Series in terms of weighting.

Accepting the above, Canada has victories in competitions from the following series/tournaments:

1972
1976
1984
1987
1991
2002
2004
2010
====
Total:8

and USSR/Russia has victories in competitions from the following series/tournaments

1979
1981
====
Total:2

Now I know you like to ignore many tournaments where Canada was successful, citing various technicalities/excuses/etc; whilst not applying those same excuses when they would work against you (i.e. Challenge Cup). But even if we let you have your way and we ignore, say, fully one half of the Canadian victories (I'll let you decide which ones to throw out), that still leaves a convincing 4 - 2 edge for Canada :nod:.

Now you mention that if you look at it in terms to total games played, with the implication that all games are being treated as equal value, then Canada has only a 1 game edge. If you're going to boil things down to individual games then you can't then turn around and say that the 81 Canada Cup was a blowout! Again, if we're talking about individual games, Canada and USSR played each other twice; a round robin game that Canada won 7-3, and a final game that USSR won 8-1. Both of those games were blowouts, and so if we apply your own logic as set out above, then the 81 Canada Cup can be considered pretty much a draw since all games are considered equal value.

Now if you agree that, in fact, not all games are equal, and that a game which clinches a tournament/series is more important than other games, then yes, the 81 CC was a blowout. But then you must also agree then that my tally above is correct and that Canada has a considerable overall edge in terms of victories in best-on-best with USSR/Russia.
 

Big Phil

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Accepting the above, Canada has victories in competitions from the following series/tournaments:

1972
1976
1984
1987
1991
2002
2004
2010
====
Total:8

and USSR/Russia has victories in competitions from the following series/tournaments

1979
1981
====
Total:2

Well, got to agree with him here. The Soviets are 2nd all-time when you judge the best on best but Canada has a clear edge to be #1 overall.

I understand the Soviets left their top line at home in 1976, but for the sake of argument if we are going to get into "ifs and buts" then Canada should get a break for not having Lemieux in 1996 (a far better player than any Soviet missing in action). Throw in Kariya, MacInnis, Bourque, Roy and the injured Francis and that's a scary six men on the ice we missed in 1996. Kariya missed all of the '98 Olympics and Sakic missed the important games. But you know what? I refuse to do that. I give full credit to EVERY country from each tournament for winning.

Besides the Soviets didn't send slugs in 1976 either. Tretiak was still there, so was Maltsev, Balderis, Gusev, Vasiliev, Kovin and Kasputin. Sweden had a strong enough team with Salming and the Czechs had the young Stastnys, Novy and Martinec as well as Druzilla and Holocek in net.

Also there are years when the Soviets were completely outclassed when they played Canada. We'll give you the victories in 1981 and '79, and '72, '84 and '87 were insanely close and most Canadians are humble enough to admit that and would rather just cherish the high level of hockey witnessed. But this is what the rest of their meetings looked like:

1976: Can 3-1. Orr's only time to play the Russians, and he came as advertised
1991: 3-3 tie in round robin play
1996: 5-3 Canadian victory in round robin, I never thought the game was in doubt
2004: 3-1 round robin victory for Canada. They had control practically the whole game
2006: 2-0 quarterfinal victory for Russia. A rotten Olympic year for Canada, convincing win for Russia, their first in 19 years against us in best vs. best
2010: 7-3 victory for Canada in quarterfinals. Canada beats what I thought was the 2nd best team in the Olympics. This was their best game of the tournament and they let up at the end. The game was 4-1 in the 1st intermission and was 6-1 and 7-2 at points. Ovechkin was invisible the whole game.

So there you have it. Hard to imagine Russia beating Canada in 2002 if they made the Gold Medal game as well in case you were wondering about that
 

tommygunn

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You contradict yourself. :shakehead
First you say that Canada did not have all of its best because some played in the WHA, which implies that Canada was weaker and therefore would have done better with those players. Then you say that the result might not have been different or might have been different...
Nowhere am I contradicting myself. You're confusing yourself... because you're erroneously calling the NHL All-Stars Team Canada, when the truth is they are two very separate teams.

Would you call a team comprised of 17 Soviets plus the addition of Peter Stastny, Milan Novy, and Ivan Hlinka the Soviet National Team??? Of course not..

Anyways..

The NHL All-Stars played the Soviet National Team and lost.. that we know for sure.

Would a different team comprised entirely of Canadians (Team Canada) have fared any better? It's a purely hypothetical question. Some would argue that an NHL All-Star team surely would be more stronger than a Team Canada team.. others would argue the exact opposite.. thus my "maybe the results would have been different, maybe they wouldn't have been.. it's all conjencture."
 

Zine

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I'd like to summarize my response as follows:

"Wait, what??"

Let's say just for the sake of simplicity that we treat all series/tournaments involving the best players from both Canada and USSR/Russia on equal footing. So for just this one time let's say Challenge Cup = Canada Cup = Olympics = Summit Series in terms of weighting.

Accepting the above, Canada has victories in competitions from the following series/tournaments:

1972
1976
1984
1987
1991
2002
2004
2010
====
Total:8

and USSR/Russia has victories in competitions from the following series/tournaments

1979
1981
====
Total:2

Now I know you like to ignore many tournaments where Canada was successful, citing various technicalities/excuses/etc; whilst not applying those same excuses when they would work against you (i.e. Challenge Cup). But even if we let you have your way and we ignore, say, fully one half of the Canadian victories (I'll let you decide which ones to throw out), that still leaves a convincing 4 - 2 edge for Canada :nod:.

Now you mention that if you look at it in terms to total games played, with the implication that all games are being treated as equal value, then Canada has only a 1 game edge. If you're going to boil things down to individual games then you can't then turn around and say that the 81 Canada Cup was a blowout! Again, if we're talking about individual games, Canada and USSR played each other twice; a round robin game that Canada won 7-3, and a final game that USSR won 8-1. Both of those games were blowouts, and so if we apply your own logic as set out above, then the 81 Canada Cup can be considered pretty much a draw since all games are considered equal value.

Now if you agree that, in fact, not all games are equal, and that a game which clinches a tournament/series is more important than other games, then yes, the 81 CC was a blowout. But then you must also agree then that my tally above is correct and that Canada has a considerable overall edge in terms of victories in best-on-best with USSR/Russia.


He’s comparing Soviet hockey, not Russian hockey. There’s quite a difference if you understand what happened internally to the Russian hockey system directly after USSR fell.

Obviously 1991 and 1976 CC are legitimate Canadian victories; however, when breaking down Soviet/Canadian dominance relative to each other, they can't be used because Soviets did not have anything close to their best team (Only 1 player from top 2 lines played in 1976 and 1991 team was missing half its players).
It’s the same reason why we don't count the 1974 Series or why we wouldn’t count Canada’s 1998 and 2002 performances in a Canadian/Slovakian comparison.

In this context, we should use:
1972
1979
1981
1984
1987

Given the fact that Canada was only 1 game better and had a worse goal differential despite the fact that all but 4 games were played on North American soil, by NHL rules, on small ice, with majority N.A. referees, and Canadians had last change for majority of games…..it's quite obvious that both sides were quite equal to each other.
 
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Zine

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Nowhere am I contradicting myself. You're confusing yourself... because you're erroneously calling the NHL All-Stars Team Canada, when the truth is they are two very separate teams.

Would you call a team comprised of 17 Soviets plus the addition of Peter Stastny, Milan Novy, and Ivan Hlinka the Soviet National Team??? Of course not..

Yes….I’d say it was Soviet National Team if only 1 non-Soviet player played any significant minutes, the team was coached by the Soviet NT coach, and players and media alike treated it like a National Team series.

Pretty much mirrors the Russian team 2004 World Cup with non-ethnic Russian, non-Russian developed and non-Russian citizen Zubrus on the roster.
 
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VMBM

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Would you call a team comprised of 17 Soviets plus the addition of Peter Stastny, Milan Novy, and Ivan Hlinka the Soviet National Team??? Of course not..

Sorry for again answering a question that wasn't directly adressed to me :sarcasm:

Maybe I wouldn't but I'd definitely acknowledge that it was DE FACTO just that. And if the team had been [badly] beaten by 'the real' Team Canada, I'd feel that I would be lying to myself if I said that the series didn't mean anything (in terms of Canada vs. USSR rivalry).

Also, knowing how lazy the NA media always was with using the correct terms, I'm 99.9 % sure that they would have called them that (or at least 'the Soviets') most of the time, even if such hypothetical team had been officially called 'European All-Stars'... or 'Eastern bloc All-Stars' :)


About the 1976 and 1991 Canada Cups...

IMO those certainly qualify as Best on best tournaments, but yeah, when someone tries to use them as a definitive proof of Canada's superiority over USSR, it becomes a bit laughable. Yes, it would have required a Herculean effort from the Soviets to win the tournament - or even beat Czechoslovakia for the 2nd place - in 1976, but as anyone should realize, a Soviet national team without Mikhailov, Petrov*, Shadrin, Yakushev (basically the top & 2nd line at the time) and Tsygankov wasn't even nearly the best possible Team USSR.

* did not mention Kharlamov, because due to career-threatening injuries, he could not have made it to the team, no matter what
 
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Canadiens1958

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No Depth

Sorry for again answering a question that wasn't directly adressed to me :sarcasm:

Maybe I wouldn't but I'd definitely acknowledge that it was DE FACTO just that. And if the team had been [badly] beaten by 'the real' Team Canada, I'd feel that I would be lying to myself if I said that the series didn't mean anything (in terms of Canada vs. USSR rivalry).

Also, knowing how lazy the NA media always was with using the correct terms, I'm 99.9 % sure that they would have called them that (or at least 'the Soviets') most of the time, even if such hypothetical team had been officially called 'European All-Stars'... or 'Eastern bloc All-Stars' :)


About the 1976 and 1991 Canada Cups...

IMO those certainly qualify as Best on best tournaments, but yeah, when someone tries to use them as a definitive proof of Canada's superiority over USSR, it becomes a bit laughable. Yes, it would have required a Herculean effort from the Soviets to win the tournament - or even beat Czechoslovakia for the 2nd place - in 1976, but as anyone should realize, a Soviet national team without Mikhailov, Petrov*, Shadrin, Yakushev (basically the top & 2nd line at the time) and Tsygankov wasn't even nearly the best possible Team USSR.


* did not mention Kharlamov, because due to career-threatening injuries, he could not have made it to the team, no matter what

Regardless you have clearly admitted that Soviet / Russian hockey lacked depth all along. From 1972 - 2010 the situation has not changed.

In 1972 Team Canada as defined by Alan Eagelson, won despite missing great players like Bobby Orr, Bobby Hull, J.C. Tremblay, Gerry Cheevers.


Your 1976 examples focuses on the stars but the reality is that the Soviet bottom six were simply not good enough. Same point could be made about 1991 while in 2010 you just eliminate the excuse of the top players not being available.The Russian bottom six simply could not compete while Canada had numerous players starting with Steve Stamkos who could have played with the same result.

So at least 38 years the Soviet / Russian hockey lacked depth. you have provided ample evidence. A fact that most Canadian hockey fans figured out long ago. Sure the Soviet / Russian teams won a few games and an odd "best on best" tournament - even a blind squirrel finds food but they were never able to overcome the lack of depth issue. Still waiting to see you or anyone else come up with proposals to solve the lack of depth problem in Russian hockey. Nearly 40 years should be enough time to take a few steps in the right direction.

Final comment about winning. Question is always who won, not by how much.You can use various after the fact calculations and arguments to make the losing side look better but the reverse just happens since the weaknesses of the losing team just come to the forefront.
 
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