How Would Playing with Orr Have Affected The Legacy of Gretzky or Lemieux?

[The Panther]

Agree with most of Boxscore's points, but:

3. Wayne passed the torch to Mario in the Canada Cup and Lemieux took over as the elite scorer in the NHL (scoring 199 the first year Wayne was in LA)

You've been listening to the Lemieux-apologists too much:

After 1987 Canada Cup:
1987-88
PPG - Gretzky
Points - Lemieux

1988-89
PPG - Lemieux
Points - Lemieux

1989-90
PPG - Lemieux
Points - Gretzky

1990-91
PPG - Gretzky
Points - Gretzky

Certainly starting from the '91 playoffs, it's Lemieux all the way. But from 1987-88 to 1990-91, it's very even, and not a case of Lemieux "[taking] over as the elite scorer in the NHL".

 

[Boxscore]

Agree with most of Boxscore's points, but:

You've been listening to the Lemieux-apologists too much:

After 1987 Canada Cup:
1987-88
PPG - Gretzky
Points - Lemieux

1988-89
PPG - Lemieux
Points - Lemieux

1989-90
PPG - Lemieux
Points - Gretzky

1990-91
PPG - Gretzky
Points - Gretzky

Certainly starting from the '91 playoffs, it's Lemieux all the way. But from 1987-88 to 1990-91, it's very even, and not a case of Lemieux "[taking] over as the elite scorer in the NHL".

Well, look at it this way... pre-Canada Cup there was Gretzky and nobody else close. Really. The Canada Cup was Mario's coming out party. He scored more goals then Wayne and even Gretzky told him, "when I pass you the puck, don't give it back, you're a better goal scorer than I am." Now, Gretz is known to be an ambassador of sorts, but that was in the heat of battle in the trenches--and he meant it. Mario said himself that playing with those guys in the Canada Cup gave him the confidence to elevate his game to a new level of dominance.

Post-Canada Cup, Gretzky finally had an offensive equal in Mario. Mario scored 199 after the Canada Cup and went on his run of back-to-back Cups, let alone the immortal 1992-93 season. Granted, Gretzky was still an offensive machine, but I remember those years clearly--and everyone in hockey was saying the torch was passed to Mario. Gretzky's best years were behind him in Edmonton and Mario's best years were beginning in terms of legacy.

 

[The Panther]

Post-Canada Cup, Gretzky finally had an offensive equal in Mario. Mario scored 199 after the Canada Cup and went on his run of back-to-back Cups, let alone the immortal 1992-93 season. Granted, Gretzky was still an offensive machine, but I remember those years clearly--and everyone in hockey was saying the torch was passed to Mario. Gretzky's best years were behind him in Edmonton and Mario's best years were beginning in terms of legacy.

I'm not talking about Mario's back to back Cups or the 1992-93 season. That's a different story. I'm talking about 1987-88 through 1990-91.

 

[bobholly39]

I think the bigger effect would have been if you place Gretzky on Orr's teams in the 70s.

Gretzky won 4 cups, a dynasty, in an era where those were becoming rarer. In fact, his Oilers are probably the last true dynasty in a bigger league, with more parity. They also had to beat the NYI dynasty to get there. All in all, 4 cups is very, very impressive for that stretch (ps - he'd likely have more if his idiot owner hadn't traded him).

I feel as though Orr's playoff history in contrast leaves a bit to be desired. He has 2 cups and 2 fantastic playoff runs, but outside of those not much. I think if you put Gretzky on his team, Boston ends up being a dynasty of their own, winning at the very least 2-3 more cups.

 

[bobholly39]

Agree with most of Boxscore's points, but:

You've been listening to the Lemieux-apologists too much:

After 1987 Canada Cup:
1987-88
PPG - Gretzky
Points - Lemieux

1988-89
PPG - Lemieux
Points - Lemieux

1989-90
PPG - Lemieux
Points - Gretzky

1990-91
PPG - Gretzky
Points - Gretzky

Certainly starting from the '91 playoffs, it's Lemieux all the way. But from 1987-88 to 1990-91, it's very even, and not a case of Lemieux "[taking] over as the elite scorer in the NHL".

lol. Lemieux played like 26 games in 91, he was injured.

Do you think Robitaille, Recchi and Kevin Stevens had surpassed Wayne Gretzky as an offensive hockey players in 93? Because they all topped him for both points and ppg too.

"Apologists". Funny

 

[The Panther]

lol. Lemieux played like 26 games in 91, he was injured.

Sure, and his PPG in 1989/90 and 1990/91 combined (85 games played; i.e., more than a season) is lower than Gretzky's in 1990-91. And Mario's PPG in 1991-92 (nearly a full season) is also lower than Gretzky's in 1990-91. I do not believe Lemieux would have out-scored Gretzky if Mario had played a full season in 1990-91 -- and the evidence supports this.

Do you think Robitaille, Recchi and Kevin Stevens had surpassed Wayne Gretzky as an offensive hockey players in 93? Because they all topped him for both points and ppg too.

Robitaille, yes. His offensive level in 1992-93 was generally higher than Gretzky's (I'm talking regular season). Recchi? Close, but probably not. (He had a lot of high-end offensive help.) Stevens is a lot like Recchi, so probably not.

We can't exaggerate the degree to which Gretzky fell off after the 1991 Canada Cup. He wasn't remotely the same player, but in drips and drabs.

"Apologists". Funny

I love everything about Mario Lemieux, and nobody should need to apologize for him. Sadly, like the Flat Earthers, there are certain people out there who stop at nothing to push him over all factual evidence.

 

[Boxscore]

I love everything about Mario Lemieux, and nobody should need to apologize for him. Sadly, like the Flat Earthers, there are certain people out there who stop at nothing to push him over all factual evidence.

Mario is a rare bird in certain respects. I know fans who rank him 5th all-time and some who rank him 1st. I am personally in the "Mario is amazing" camp, if such a camp exists. The reason why Mario is a little harder to judge IMO is due to the eye test and injuries.

EYE TEST: Never in my life have I seen a hockey player make my jaw drop more than Lemieux. Mario was worth every penny to watch play. In fact, if he was in his prime today, I'd chalk up $160 a pop to watch him--he was THAT great. When it came to Mario, a martian could drop from outer space, watch their first ever hockey game, and realize he was the best player on the ice--it was that obvious. Lemieux was also more flashy and dynamic than other elite players, so he bests pretty much everyone in "style points" and "entertainment value."

INJURIES: From cancer to a terrible back, Mario dealt with his share of crippling injuries. And I'm not just talking about "back pain"--it was a known fact that Mario went through a couple of seasons where he couldn't tie his own skates or lift his carry-on above his head on the airplane. Some fans look at stats as black and white, while some factor in circumstances. Point being, there were times that Mario literally dominated the best league on the planet while fighting cancer and not being able to lace his skates--if those realities don't elevate him to demi-god status, I don't know what will.

Players like Gretz, Gordie, Jagr, Beliveau and Messier are easier to rank because of their lengthy, and generally uninterrupted bodies of work. Mario is in the pile with Orr, Lindros, Neely and company--although him and Orr are still undisputed. So when it comes to some "apologizing" for Mario--I honestly don't think it's an apology at all--it's more like a justification and declaration of his intangibles.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I agree with all of this.

I think people go into these fantasy-scenarios of how many points Gretzky or Lemieux could have scored with so-so as a teammate, but... I don't think it works like that. I think '82 / '84 / '85 / '86 Gretzky and '89 / '93 Lemieux show us what is basically the upper-limit of possible scoring in an 80-ish games season. Here we see the perfect players on the perfect teams in the perfect eras. Gretzky got 212 points before any of his teammates were superstars... then, after '84 or so when the Edmonton supporting cast became really elite, it's not like Gretzky's scoring increased. It had already hit a plateau. And likewise Lemieux: when his supporting cast became really stellar from '90 to '93, it's not like his scoring went up from '88 or '89 (in sum, it actually went a bit down).

And, as mentioned, Paul Coffey already scored more goals in a season than Orr ever did and only one less point, and finished 2nd to peak-Gretzky in NHL scoring twice. How much more offence would Orr be bringing?

And I also agree that the real difference would be in goals-against and team success. Orr would have a more positive impact on team success than Coffey, because he was more consistent and much better at "picking his spots" and being smart defensively.

No way to prove this but I get the feeling Gretzky (or Mario) plays a more responsible defensive game if Orr is a teammate.