How to watch defense

[Moregoalspls]

I know offence is easy to watch on tv and such, but what makes you look at a defenceman and say that D is good? position, strength, passing? I usually determine it in my own mind as strong on the puck, grindy etc. On many players i think they have a strong game and then the media will rip into them. So some insight would be awesome thanks.

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[5 14 6 1]

I know offence is easy to watch on tv and such, but what makes you look at a defenceman and say that D is good? position, strength, passing? I usually determine it in my own mind as strong on the puck, grindy etc. On many players i think they have a strong game and then the media will rip into them. So some insight would be awesome thanks.

I look for a player composed in his own zone who makes the right play getting the puck out when given a chance. Good gap control keeping opposing forwards to the outside with little time to make a play, and a punishing physical presence when needed. This defenseman goes from good to elite when paired with elite offensive skills (PPQB, passing, point shot, intincts when to jump into the play) Closest in the modern game I can think of is Hedman.

 

[MarkusNaslund19]

I'm a Canucks fan but I like this question. If we're talking defence men:

- Gap control is a big one.

- Ability to read the rush and make quick incisive decisions (e.g. if the forwards criss cross on a 2 on 2, do the D switch who they are covering or cross as well. Convention is usually to switch who they are covering, but that requires a sense of timing and a subversion of one's instincts).

- Ability to make plays under pressure in the defensive zone. Like if the D picks up a puck with 2 guys on him and doesn't have time to take much of a look, can he make a smart play? (Duncan Keith has always been brilliant at this).

- A sense of timing on net-front coverage. In general, you don't need to physically engage with a forward in front of the net except for very specific moments when the puck may come to him. Having an acute sense of this timing and not wasting time and energy engaging at other times requires a certain genius instinct (think Drew Doughty).

I could go on, but these are some of the basics.

 

[Cloned]

I'm a Canucks fan but I like this question. If we're talking defence men:

- Gap control is a big one.

- Ability to read the rush and make quick incisive decisions (e.g. if the forwards criss cross on a 2 on 2, do the D switch who they are covering or cross as well. Convention is usually to switch who they are covering, but that requires a sense of timing and a subversion of one's instincts).

- Ability to make plays under pressure in the defensive zone. Like if the D picks up a puck with 2 guys on him and doesn't have time to take much of a look, can he make a smart play? (Duncan Keith has always been brilliant at this).

- A sense of timing on net-front coverage. In general, you don't need to physically engage with a forward in front of the net except for very specific moments when the puck may come to him. Having an acute sense of this timing and not wasting time and energy engaging at other times requires a certain genius instinct (think Drew Doughty).

I could go on, but these are some of the basics.

Agree in general, but Doughty sometimes gets burned pretty hilariously because of that.

 

[BoldNewLettuce]

How often jack Michaels says; squeezes, rubs, straddles, dominates etc

 

[russ99]

Defense isn’t just for defensemen, it’s for forwards too.

1. Picking up your man, and reading the assignments when to switch and with whom
2. Not giving up a clear shot
3.Disrupting the opposition cycle, with stickwork, positioning, and/or physical presence.
4.Clearing players and the puck from the crease
5. Acquiring the puck and clearing the zone

Many of these are team concepts, if there’s one or more weak link, the team looks bad. Often defensemen are put in difficult positions or look bad due to forwards not defending.

 

[Aerchon]

I'm a Canucks fan but I like this question. If we're talking defence men:

- Gap control is a big one.

- Ability to read the rush and make quick incisive decisions (e.g. if the forwards criss cross on a 2 on 2, do the D switch who they are covering or cross as well. Convention is usually to switch who they are covering, but that requires a sense of timing and a subversion of one's instincts).

- Ability to make plays under pressure in the defensive zone. Like if the D picks up a puck with 2 guys on him and doesn't have time to take much of a look, can he make a smart play? (Duncan Keith has always been brilliant at this).

- A sense of timing on net-front coverage. In general, you don't need to physically engage with a forward in front of the net except for very specific moments when the puck may come to him. Having an acute sense of this timing and not wasting time and energy engaging at other times requires a certain genius instinct (think Drew Doughty).

I could go on, but these are some of the basics.

All good.

Gap control is big along with taking away passing lanes and stickwork.

Battle around the net and boards.

And as mentioned, decision making.

 

[Draiskull]

Positioning and composure under pressure are big for me.

Hits, passing, skating are important as well but does not define a good Dman.
You need to be reliable. A bad forward you can get by with but one bad dman will cost you games.

 

[Aceboogie]

Defense is amongst the hardest position to "scout" in any sport. I trust like 5% of scouting reports of D on HF and amongst media talking heads. I am not particularly good at it either. There is so much going on in any particular shift and so much of what a D does is away from the puck, aka what fans arent looking for. And then even when people are watching a certain D with the puck, there is so many biases to how that D is evaluated. Primarily because anyone above 20 has been conditioned for their entire life to value simple, low risk D. So anytime a risky play is made, if it backfires that D will receive all of the ire of the fans. And if the gamble pays off, I find the praise isnt there, because the puck gets moved to the forward and if a goal is scored, the praise is heaped mostly on the forward.

And all people are subject to loss aversion, so the value of 1 goal prevented is a lot higher than 1 goal generated. So for a D, if you prevent 10 goals (but generated none) by being low event, low risk, you can be seen as more beneficial than a D who directly generated 30 goals, but gave up 10 goals.

Loss aversion is REALLY strong with defenseman, because one mistake by a D and fans will attribute the entire goal against to that one D (even though the puck went thru 3 forwards and then the goalie). And then on offense, the D is the first one to make the play, so they first one fans forget when a goal is scored. A defenseman's offensive impact is often defused as a play moves up the ice. Whereas a goal against is concentrated entirely on them

 

[Aerrol]

Lots of really good points in here, but in terms of how to watch for it, I often tell my friends who ask what to watch for to watch when the puck starts going back the other way, and then work backwards from there. Chances are, for good defensive players, they will be involved in the play that led to the change in possession. This is a good way imo to try and learn 'when' defence happens. Once you've got that down you can move further back into the specific plays others are talking about - stripping the puck, interceptions, good zone play, board work etc.

 

[Drivesaitl]

I wish ReverendOil was still here. Great past poster. He would explain this well.

The way he explained Pronger to me was that he was the best "snowball catcher" that he had ever seen. It seemed a weird reference and lacked connection until I saw Pronger play a lot here. I hated the player before because he was a Blue. I only got appreciation of all he did seeing him here.

So that each rush its a D job to try to stymie that rush and reverse the play. (snowball catching) Pronger was simply god mode at that and I don't know that there has been better. Whether he controlled the player physically, or stripped puck with stick, pass block, or simply rode the player into a harmless area Pronger would effectively stop rushes and reverse puck all day.

Another facet is what does a D do with a modicum of time on a dump in. Do they read the play really well and take the options that are available? If I had to describe this to non hockey fans it would be that this own zone role is as QB. You have to hit something good to clear zone and advance puck. You have to instantly read possibilities and drop down to least bad alternative if nothing is there. A related component is the D's ability to scramble under pressure forcheck. Also similar to QB's. Good D can effortlessly buy themselves time to make the play.

Now in Prongers case he also happened to be excellent in both zones and in jumping up into the play. Added bonus when you get this but with the proviso that its only bonus if you don't get caught regularly.

I decided not to focus on composure, gap control, positioning, being strong on puck, all the other goodies because its already been covered.

I tend to pay less importance to the offensive aspect of elite D. As mentioned those are bonuses. The job description is what you do in own end.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Short answer. If you like football watch Mike Reilly. Pretend he's a hockey D, and not a QB, and that his job is to prevent the other team from having the ball. To advance it down field all the time and limit how much the other team has the puck. Its not far off what a D in hockey looks like. Consider that each rush, or shot in is like a football snap and that its time for the D there to act, make reads, drop down reads etc and buy time.

Mike Reilly with skates could be a hockey D.

Weird comparison I realize, but it helps explain one primary facet of D, and how to look for it. I use the comparison because everybody understands what QB's do. So the comparison can cause lights to go on.

 

[oilerbear]

I know offence is easy to watch on tv and such, but what makes you look at a defenceman and say that D is good? position, strength, passing? I usually determine it in my own mind as strong on the puck, grindy etc. On many players i think they have a strong game and then the media will rip into them. So some insight would be awesome thanks.

As the person who has generated over 20+ theories largely 05-06 to 08-09.
Thier are major aspects tongoal prevention.

My HD shot theory Identified a goal diff ratio of 5hd:1LD
High danger shots (orig called rickisbox) ( now homeplate by MSM) go in 5 times more than LD shots (Perimeter)

You want Dmen that defend the HD area at an elite level.
Adam Larsson is a top 5 HD dman. Thier is one for every 6 teams.

The most critical factor in zone entry and how dmen should defend in the new speed game is weather the forwards fail to run a NZ trap. Gap control is greatly affected by speed and the new chip and retrieve.

Table hockey goalie movement: 44-45 years ago I played street hockey with a 6-7yr old kid who was 3-4 years younger than us.
He did not play in traditional goalie position. He moved with the puck (tracking ph 1.) like a Table hockey goalie. The puck hit him at a high rate. I recently was diagnosed with Cancer. I have been going back to individuals so I can reference them relative to my theories.
That young man is Ron Gunville Player Petsonel Director of PA Raiders.

It was not till John Van Biesbrook & Patrick Roy that I saw this movement in NHL. Thier was a marked increase insave% and copying of style. Pucks that hit goalies have 0% chance of going in.

Open/closed shot theory: closed shot is any shot that hits a goalie in Table hockey movement. My favourite is puck shot into glove than the arm swing. It is 0% when in glove. Once the goalie starts to move his glove thier is a potential for the puck to drop out and go in net.

0% goal chance corsi:
0% corsi = (blocks + misses + closed shots)

Elite 0% Corsi Dmen: 12yr old theory
Create the highest % 0% corsi relative to CA.
They make the goalies work rate the easiest.
#1 Kris Russell
#2 DeHaan.

offensive Dmen are OFENSIVE.
Hockey is looking for pocession Efficiency.
Forwards generate even offence 4 times more efficiently than dmen. You want the puck off dman,s stick and on the better producers.

Offensive dmen abandon defence of HD area. Yielding free path counter attacks on their own HD area. They yeild High HD shot rates. They are def nightmares. Bott 5 Faulk, zbarrie, Reilly, Hamonic, Nurse.

The simple mechanical play is no longer the only part of def process. The last couple of historic long term cycles in oilers zone had media and fans talking. But most of the corsi were O%.
There were no High danger shots in the cycle. Almost no goal scoring potential.

That is what you also have to watch for.

1. No HD penetration.
2. Minimal open shots required to be salved.
3. Quick/accurate transition passes to forwards.

We scored 13 less goals than in 16-17. 247 down to 234 (-13)
We ran a HD sys under MacT in 16-17 and gave up 146 evga then reverted to a perimeter pressure system like Eakins 182 evga. A simple system change made us -36 in Ga. we saw the rest of GA change from poor PK.

 

[Raab]

The best dmen are the ones that make everything look easy. They're fast getting back to their zone, and can make a quick transition back up the ice.(This helps against the forecheck) You never see them scrambling to cover a guy who's been left open.(See some of the goals against Nurse at the WHC) They have good board work and can break up the cycle. They're also very good with their stick. Either deflecting pucks out of play on shots or stripping the puck from an opponent. Lastly they have extensive vision and hockey IQ in the offensive zone knowing when to pinch, when to shoot, and when to pass. If you don't want to watch for all those things simply look for the dman who spends more time skating forwards, then backwards and doesn't ever seem to be in his defensive end.

 

[Bank Shot]

Defence is hard to watch on TV because the cameras follow the puck.

It's very hard to see plays develop at times, and its tough to see if players are in good defensive position unless they show a replay.

 

[Drivesaitl]

Defence is hard to watch on TV because the cameras follow the puck.

It's very hard to see plays develop at times, and its tough to see if players are in good defensive position unless they show a replay.

Interesting comment, but odd that its the case at the sametime. When HDTV first came out camera crews, at least in international games had started to make adjustments and realize they could show MORE of the ice surface as per HD dimensions being larger and matching ice surface dimensions more closely. So that it was great being able to see most of the ice surface a lot of the time. But something happened to that and they've gradually crept back closer and closer to the action, instead of showing more of the ice.

This has never been more striking during than during the WC where they do show a lot of the pitch on the telecasts as the standard view. I actually think they've peeled the cameras back a bit since the last WC. So that its much easier to see openings, developing play etc. Which I really prefer.

There is no reason at all not to do this with hockey and telecast the games properly.

 

[Fixed to Ruin]

On top of what most people have listed in the thread, I look for good zone coverage. When the players are all bunched together then you know the team is playing poorly defensively. Lots of examples of this on these boards.

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

The best dmen are the ones that make everything look easy. They're fast getting back to their zone, and can make a quick transition back up the ice.(This helps against the forecheck) You never see them scrambling to cover a guy who's been left open.(See some of the goals against Nurse at the WHC) They have good board work and can break up the cycle. They're also very good with their stick. Either deflecting pucks out of play on shots or stripping the puck from an opponent. Lastly they have extensive vision and hockey IQ in the offensive zone knowing when to pinch, when to shoot, and when to pass. If you don't want to watch for all those things simply look for the dman who spends more time skating forwards, then backwards and doesn't ever seem to be in his defensive end.

Somehow I knew Raab was going to take the opportunity to smear Nurse before even clicking on the thread.

 

[Raab]

Somehow I knew Raab was going to take the opportunity to smear Nurse before even clicking on the thread.

Most recent example of a dman missing their coverage.

 

[belair]

As the person who has generated over 20+ theories largely 05-06 to 08-09.
Thier are major aspects tongoal prevention.

My HD shot theory Identified a goal diff ratio of 5hd:1LD
High danger shots (orig called rickisbox) ( now homeplate by MSM) go in 5 times more than LD shots (Perimeter)

You want Dmen that defend the HD area at an elite level.
Adam Larsson is a top 5 HD dman. Thier is one for every 6 teams.

The most critical factor in zone entry and how dmen should defend in the new speed game is weather the forwards fail to run a NZ trap. Gap control is greatly affected by speed and the new chip and retrieve.

Table hockey goalie movement: 44-45 years ago I played street hockey with a 6-7yr old kid who was 3-4 years younger than us.
He did not play in traditional goalie position. He moved with the puck (tracking ph 1.) like a Table hockey goalie. The puck hit him at a high rate. I recently was diagnosed with Cancer. I have been going back to individuals so I can reference them relative to my theories.
That young man is Ron Gunville Player Petsonel Director of PA Raiders.

It was not till John Van Biesbrook & Patrick Roy that I saw this movement in NHL. Thier was a marked increase insave% and copying of style. Pucks that hit goalies have 0% chance of going in.

Open/closed shot theory: closed shot is any shot that hits a goalie in Table hockey movement. My favourite is puck shot into glove than the arm swing. It is 0% when in glove. Once the goalie starts to move his glove thier is a potential for the puck to drop out and go in net.

0% goal chance corsi:
0% corsi = (blocks + misses + closed shots)

Elite 0% Corsi Dmen: 12yr old theory
Create the highest % 0% corsi relative to CA.
They make the goalies work rate the easiest.
#1 Kris Russell
#2 DeHaan.

offensive Dmen are OFENSIVE.
Hockey is looking for pocession Efficiency.
Forwards generate even offence 4 times more efficiently than dmen. You want the puck off dman,s stick and on the better producers.

Offensive dmen abandon defence of HD area. Yielding free path counter attacks on their own HD area. They yeild High HD shot rates. They are def nightmares. Bott 5 Faulk, zbarrie, Reilly, Hamonic, Nurse.

The simple mechanical play is no longer the only part of def process. The last couple of historic long term cycles in oilers zone had media and fans talking. But most of the corsi were O%.
There were no High danger shots in the cycle. Almost no goal scoring potential.

That is what you also have to watch for.

1. No HD penetration.
2. Minimal open shots required to be salved.
3. Quick/accurate transition passes to forwards.

We scored 13 less goals than in 16-17. 247 down to 234 (-13)
We ran a HD sys under MacT in 16-17 and gave up 146 evga then reverted to a perimeter pressure system like Eakins 182 evga. A simple system change made us -36 in Ga. we saw the rest of GA change from poor PK.

I'm very sorry to hear that. You've always been an interesting poster to read. Even though some of your theories seem to escape my ability to understand them, I always look forward to your input. Stay strong, @oilerbear.