How much does a goalie impact wins and losses.

Derick*

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The professionals say that playing goal at the highest level is more mental than physical.

This leads to two points, but to believe them, you have to believe that hockey players (including goalies) are human beings.

1) Concentration/effort is the most important thing. In a blowout, a goalie may very well be less focused. (Or in Eddie Cheevers' case, may care about avoiding brusises more than his stats once the game is out of hand).

2) The whole "handling the pressure" thing. The amount of mental pressure a goalie is facing is entirely different in a regular season game and in the 3rd period of a close playoff game. It's why Luongo is not anywhere close to a HOFer at this time, and why Tony Esposito is not a Top 100 player.

No need to be sarcastic. Disagreeing on a particular concrete situation in which emotional fallibility might play a role doesn't mean either side is ignorant that emotion plays a role in human life. I actually know quite a bit about cognitive science (hence my username, incidentally).

Throughout I mean "mental strength" as in control of your emotions and the mental endurance to apply yourself fully in any situation. I don't mean all mental skills which, collectively, obviously play a huge role in goaltending.

NHL players have faced pressure their entire careers, being closely evaluated from the age of about eight to see if they can make the next teir. Someone who plays badly under pressure likely wouldn't make the NHL in the first place.

Goalies who make "key saves" mysteriously lose the ability to do so whenever one of them leaves their great team.

Studies looking specifically at close, important games have shown the save percentage of the goalies looked at doesn't change (other than going up for everyone proportionately). Perhaps goalies not important enough to be chosen did, but this definitely isn't the case with Hasek or Joseph and several other examples, and that leads me to assume it isn't the case most of the time.

Too much of hockey is important for this to really make a significant save percentage difference and bridge the gap between any goalie that has a significant lead. 72% of the game is played with the game either tied or within one goal, to speak nothing of two and three goal leads which can often be overcome. Because hockey is a low scoring, volatile game, almost any save is "big" if it looks like there was any chance of it going in. It's a small minority of games where any particular goal probably won't make a difference. For those to weight enough to come close to bridging the gap, Brodeur and Fuhr and Osgood would have to basically stop playing everytime their team was down by three.

The effects of your two points cancel out. While a mentally strong goalie would be better in close games, he'd also be better in games that look like they're already decided as it'd be tempting for a mentally weak person to just take his mind out of it because it doesn't make a difference anyway. So presumably mental strength would "inflate" your save percentage with less important saves just as much as mental weakness. I.e., while mental strength definitely helps, the effect would be constant among the importance of shots.

Everything in science, my subjective experiences, my own anecdotal observation, and what I've heard from those people, suggests that someone talented at something zones out (out of other thoughts, into what they're doing) in a lucid way when they're doing well. What this means is that the mentally weak goalies should be more resistant in important games that are close because this effect means they aren't thinking about anything that could distract them, just what they're doing. What's more likely is that a mentally weak goalies are bad not in overtime of game seven, but after giving up goals and going behind early in important games and becoming frustrated which would have a save percentage neutral effect.

Ironically, our anecdotal examples of goalies who can't handle pressure are actually them being scored on a lot in blowouts in important games - which should deflate their save percentage! Presumably other-universe Luongo who handles pressure well would have let in 4 goals both of those games, not 7 and 6, and would have a higher save percentage despite not providing his teams with any wins. The goalies who let in single important goals in important games are the ones whose save percentage would be inflated. So, who does that give us? Ryan Miller? Brodeur - who was in his career well below .500 in playoff overtime games?

A mentally tough goalie with heart and clutchness and all that stuff certainly would have no reason to take it easy during insignificant games, as he wants to give his team confidence by keeping it afloat and has good values and worth ethic. This difference should presumably be made entirely by the mentally weak goalies playing worse during important times. That changes the percentage of game-minutes which are important enough to be played well from 72% to 84% and leaves us with, if we're comparing two goalies one clutch and one talented but mentally weak, 14% of their combined time being made up of what's allegedly throwing off the difference in their save percentage.

Lastly, there's key saves within a game and saves in key games and the second makes a lot more sense than the first for various reasons. For one, it's not overtime or the third period that's more important, it's one goal games. A goalie playing well in overtime couldn't, if he had the opportunity, borrow some of his goodness from the first period and bring it to overtime where it's more important, because just one more regulation goal against and his team loses before it has the chance to get to overtime. Secondly, which saves we remember as key is entirely determined by whether the team scored enough for the save to make a difference and whether that goalie saved enough to keep the team in the game. No one would remember when a goalie made the last save of the game if his team didn't score enough for it to make a difference, and no one remembers the key saves of a goalie that played so well his team was up 3 - 0, not 3 - 2, so the last save of the game that he made wasn't as important.

I do believe playing well in key games almost certainly exists even though it's overstated, but that people currently base this estimation entirely on the fact that a goalie had team success, and it doesn't necessarily correlate with that. I also believe some goalies do not play well when they get frustrated (this is likely the case with Luongo) and so could be worse if their team goes down early in an important game, but that the effect harms their save percentage as much as being good in less important games inflates it, so this isn't a knock on save percentage and can't be used to make "key saves" adjust a "team goalie's" save percentage.
 
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Derick*

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Why are certain players in the HHOF? Because of their performance in CLUTCH times. For some the lights never get too bright while others sphincter puckers after the 2nd intermission of a pre season game. Why it happens? I haven't a clue.

If a goalie gets soft in the second intermission of a pre season game they'd never be able to compile those meaningless inflated save percentages your side is always talking about.
 

Derick*

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I trust a goaltender to know what the position is like more than I trust a statistician. Just like if I want to know what mentally goes into walking a tight rope, fighting in the army, being an Olympic-level archer, or fixing a car, I would trust someone who made his/her living doing that thing. Gravity is a force of nature, not affected by the human mind.

I would definitely trust a fat person more than a skinny physicist if I wanted to know how one deals with life while being fat.

While a goaltender obviously knows what it's actually like to be in that position subjectively, a statistician can know important things the goalie doesn't because he has a much more objective look at the goalies actions and their results, which the goalie doesn't, because we all have massive sampling bias when remembering our own actions.

Further, most of the key save references I've heard were either from a) sports analysts on TV and in the news (i.e. paid entertainers), or b) from coaches and managers and players who weren't on their team, who don't know what it's like to be an NHL goalie much more than a statistician does (as they aren't one), and as they're being interviewed are often being primed for certain answers and have every incentive to come up with a meaningless platitude.

An interview with a goalie where he gives an earnest analysis about how he does what he does that suggesting there's something different about key saves I'd find a lot more convincing but I can't remember one.

It seems to me that a lot of things you traditionalists disagree with us nerds on, there's this vague idea that all the experts, everyone who matters agree with you and we're outsiders who don't understand hockey and want our meaningless numbers to mean more than they do, but it's just assumed that this is the case because those cliches are what our culture takes for granted. For instance, when Brodeur broke the shutout record and they interviewed a bunch of NHLers for positive quotes, about a third of the players mentioned New Jersey's system as a stipulation before giving Brodeur praise. That doesn't give me the impression all the experts disagree with us reformists.
 

Marotte Marauder

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If a goalie gets soft in the second intermission of a pre season game they'd never be able to compile those meaningless inflated save percentages your side is always talking about.

Of course he won't! There are miles between that scenario and stoning a sniper in game 7.

And for the record, I was not referring only to goalies-see Glenn Anderson.
 

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TheDevilMadeMe

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Derick*

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Do you have a link to a credible source? It's been shown recently that TCG doesn't know how to define clutch situations.

I don't have a link on hand but I know of them, so I'd have to go digging. Did you say that rhetorically or are you actually interested, because I don't want to link-mine just to try to prove you wrong, but if you actually care I'm happy to :laugh:

Do you have a link to the demonstration that he doesn't know how to define clutch situations? I'd like to look at it.

While I enjoy his page a lot and I've learned from it, I'm open to the idea that he consistently makes certain kind of errors or something and there are serious flaws. What I'm defensive of is that the type of analysis he does is, in principal, legitimate. I'd enjoy it if someone who opposes him would do the kinds of posts he does, but they don't, all I see are posters sarcastically disregard him and then claim that all the experts and anyone who has balls knows x y and z and they don't need to back it up, and that my wanting to back them up just shows I'm hopelessly ignorant. So I give him the benefit of the doubt, not them, for the time being.
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

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I don't have a link on hand but I know of them, so I'd have to go digging. Did you say that rhetorically or are you actually interested, because I don't want to link-mine just to try to prove you wrong, but if you actually care I'm happy to :laugh:

Do you have a link to the demonstration that he doesn't know how to define clutch situations? I'd like to look at it.

While I enjoy his page a lot and I've learned from it, I'm open to the idea that he consistently makes certain kind of errors or something and there are serious flaws. What I'm defensive of is that the type of analysis he does is, in principal, legitimate. I'd enjoy it if someone who opposes him would do the kinds of posts he does, but they don't, all I see are posters sarcastically disregard him and then claim that all the experts and anyone who has balls knows x y and z and they don't need to back it up, and that my wanting to back them up just shows I'm hopelessly ignorant. So I give him the benefit of the doubt, not them, for the time being.

See posts 115 of the Modano thread and the discussion afterwards. http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?p=29066377#post29066377

It's not the first time TCG was way too sloppy in defining terms and it's gotten to the point that I don't even find his blog worth the effort to read (his sloppiness and arrogance do not combine to make a pleasant read).
 

Rhiessan71

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http://brodeurisafraud.blogspot.com/2009/01/which-goalie-was-best-in-clutch.html

The same goalies who stone snipers in game 7 are the ones that stop the early regular season shots your team goalies are too good to stop.

Brodeur is 12 - 20 all time in playoff overtimes.


The only problem with that blog and his info is he likes to take certain parses to show his points and you're not always getting all the info.
For instance, I'm not quite sure why he includes Roy's OT record with the AV's only. Like, is he only trying to include the games when these goalies played for the more elite teams?
Why then are all of Hasek's games presented, including the ones with Buffalo.

So why does he exclude Roy's games with the Habs especially when he was something silly like 24-6?

Some points in that blog for sure but I wouldn't exactly say it's presenting everything possible to get the real unbiased truth either, like the name of the blog itself didn't tip you off to begin with heh.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

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The only problem with that blog and his info is he likes to take certain parses to show his points and you're not only getting all the info.
For instance, I'm not quite sure why he includes Roy's OT record with the AV's only. Like, is he only trying to include the games when these goalies played for the more elite teams?
Why then are all of Hasek's games presented, including the ones with Buffalo.

So why does he exclude Roy's games with the Habs especially when he was something silly like 23-6?

Some points in that blog for sure but I wouldn't exactly say it's presenting everything possible to get the real unbiased truth either.

If he actually showed all the information, his hero Hasek wouldn't look quite so godlike, now would he?

TCG is notorious for selectively picking his starting points before going into his long statistical analysis. He's not a neutral analyst at all. He's just as biased as anyone, he just covers his biases in statistical smoke. I'm surprised it isn't more well known by now.

Has he been forced to acknowledge the routine undercounting of shots at the old arena in the swamp yet? I remember when an article on puck prospectus first raised the issue, he dismissed it as unimportant.
 

Rhiessan71

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If he actually showed all the information, his hero Hasek wouldn't look quite so godlike, now would he?

TCG is notorious for selectively picking his starting points before going into his long statistical analysis. He's not a neutral analyst at all. He's just as biased as anyone, he just covers his biases in statistical smoke. I'm surprised it isn't more well known by now.

Has he been forced to acknowledge the routine undercounting of shots at the old arena in the swamp yet? I remember when an article on puck prospectus first raised the issue, he dismissed it as unimportant.

Yeah the only possible reason I can see for excluding Roy's full OT record and stats is so Roy doesn't completely blow every single other goalie including Hasek out of the freakin water.
 

Derick*

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If he actually showed all the information, his hero Hasek wouldn't look quite so godlike, now would he?

TCG is notorious for selectively picking his starting points before going into his long statistical analysis. He's not a neutral analyst at all. He's just as biased as anyone, he just covers his biases in statistical smoke. I'm surprised it isn't more well known by now.

Has he been forced to acknowledge the routine undercounting of shots at the old arena in the swamp yet? I remember when an article on puck prospectus first raised the issue, he dismissed it as unimportant.

Link to the PP article? Wouldn't that be fairly easy to control for by only look at road save percentages? It's not like Brodeur's career is short enough that it would make the sample size too small.

What I wonder is why he would be so biased towards Hasek. He's from Alberta iirc and I don't think he has anything to with the Czeches, Sabres, or Red Wings. Maybe he originally wasn't and how he's just biased towards his preconceived notions.

It wouldn't surprise me at all that the kind of errors and biases you guys are accusing him of are there, but I still think his posts are very valuable just because of what, in principle, he is demonstrating can be done and how these things can be looked at. "The rain is clutch in the playoffs."
 

Rhiessan71

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Link to the PP article? Wouldn't that be fairly easy to control for by only look at road save percentages? It's not like Brodeur's career is short enough that it would make the sample size too small.

What I wonder is why he would be so biased towards Hasek. He's from Alberta iirc and I don't think he has anything to with the Czeches, Sabres, or Red Wings. Maybe he originally wasn't and how he's just biased towards his preconceived notions.

It wouldn't surprise me at all that the kind of errors and biases you guys are accusing him of are there, but I still think his posts are very valuable just because of what, in principle, he is demonstrating can be done and how these things can be looked at. "The rain is clutch in the playoffs."

Not saying he's completely off base on some of it but incomplete info will always result in an incomplete and/or erroneous analysis.

The writer obviously believes what he's saying, the only issue for me is whether he cherry picks the data because that's how he wants to see or if it how he wants you to see it.
 
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BraveCanadian

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This leads to two points, but to believe them, you have to believe that hockey players (including goalies) are human beings.

Well there it is.. I have finally lost all respect for TDMM.

We all know that hockey players are simply robots who produce perfect statistics for us to later mash into compelling and irrefutable evidence of things that people watching the robots never saw.

And the statistics capture everything we need to know.. honest.
 

Derick*

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Well there it is.. I have finally lost all respect for TDMM.

We all know that hockey players are simply robots who produce perfect statistics for us to later mash into compelling and irrefutable evidence of things that people watching the robots never saw.

And the statistics capture everything we need to know.. honest.

Ridiculous strawman. This is the kind of thing that makes me so inclined to believe someone like TCG. 95% of the statements against him and those like him are basically "you better not believe this, if you do people will laugh at you." And then something implying that statistics have absolutely nothing that observation and anecdote don't, which is ridiculous.
 

BraveCanadian

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Ridiculous strawman. This is the kind of thing that makes me so inclined to believe someone like TCG. 95% of the statements against him and those like him are basically "you better not believe this, if you believe this people will laugh at you."

Actually I am one of the first people to bring up the fact that "clutch" players generally are the ones who are put into the position and have the opportunity to be "clutch" in the first place.

Also memory is a lot of it. Everyone remembers Messier's guarantee of winning backed up by a hat trick but they all conveniently forget his guarantee of making the playoffs that failed for example. The win is much more memorable.

I just think the truth lies a little more in the middle than either extreme.

And lately people on the board here seem to think there is a magical statistical bullet for everything. That bothers me when they think that through the simple statistics available in hockey they have discovered something that fans and experts who make their living doing it missed.

Which is great except in general hockey stats are terrible at breaking out individual play compared to say, baseball.
 

Derick*

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Actually I am one of the first people to bring up the fact that "clutch" players generally are the ones who are put into the position and have the opportunity to be "clutch" in the first place.

Also memory is a lot of it. Everyone remembers Messier's guarantee of winning backed up by a hat trick but they all conveniently forget his guarantee of making the playoffs that failed for example. The win is much more memorable.

I just think the truth lies a little more in the middle than either extreme.

And lately people on the board here seem to think there is a magical statistical bullet for everything.

Which is great except in general hockey stats are terrible at breaking out individual play compared to say, baseball.

I agree with everything you say, but I don't see people who believe anything like your satirical post, just like no one really believes players should be ranked by nothing but careers wins and cup rings.

No one when asks would say statistics are worth more than observation, though in practice they tend to overuse them. It's because it's much more convenient to throw out a stat than to explain something you've observed that someone else, earnestly or not, can just cut down with "I watched all those games too and you're wrong."
 

Trottier

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Does being a professional automatically make you right? You can be better at something and have an inferior understanding of it. A baseball player, a fat person, and a dog catching a ball don't understand gravity as well as a physicist. Cognitive biases exist among the incredibly talented.

What difference is there between an important save and an unimportant save that lets goalies make saves at important times? I understand why one might be more important than another, but what's different about it that could make someone better at saving one or the other?

Yes, to answer your question, I trust the opinions of people in the game about their profession. Exponentially moreso than all others. And no, they, like every one else, are imperfect. But some hockey knowledge is universal...except on HF, where every basic tenet of the game is amusingly contested.

A goalie who makes the one save late to preserve a 6-5 win in Game Seven Of the Cup Finals is all that matters to me. I'll leave it to better minds to ponder, dwell on (and criticize) his inability to make a save earlier in the game...or better yet, to rave about the netminder who made 50 saves....in a 2-1 loss.

It's because it's much more convenient to throw out a stat than to explain something you've observed that someone else, earnestly or not, can just cut down with "I watched all those games too and you're wrong."

My, what a prejorative, inaccurate summation of the many fine posters here who possess the experience of watching and playing hoceky...and the ability to articulate those experiences. We certainly bring more to the table than simply ""I watched all those games too and you're wrong."

'Tis a shame if that is truly how you choose to misread the many, many insightful narratives offered up here, at least on this particular board.

Happy Thanksgiving.
 
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Derick*

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Yes, to answer your question, I trust the opinions of people in the game about their profession. Exponentially moreso than all others. And no, they, like every one else, are imperfect. But some hockey knowledge is universal...except on HF, where every basic tenet of the game is contested. :laugh:

A goalie who makes the one save late to preserve a 6-5 win in Game Seven Of the Cup Finals is all that matters to me. I'll leave it to better minds to ponder, dwell on (and criticize) his inability to make a save earlier in the game...or better yet, to rave about the netminder who made 50 saves....in a 2-1 loss.

Happy Thanksgiving.

That'd be great if all of us were going off of reputation alone. It's not as though I'm looking at the conclusions of each out of context and agreeing with the statisticians because they're statisticians. I will agree with the statistician when what he's saying is one hundred times more logical, as it often is compared to the platitudes interviewed experts give. Besides, a lot of the wisdom people like you claim all the experts in the game (TM) know is, as far as I can tell, actually coming primarily from sports journalists i.e. paid entertainers.

If the goalie didn't score those six goals, why should he get credit for the win compared to the goalie who can stop all those shots, when all data and reason suggest that the results would be the same if the goalies switched teams? What does your side give for arguments? "If you believe this, you are ignorant and therefore not worth talking to. Everyone knows (insert belief here)." Ever read The Emperor's New Clothes?
 

Derick*

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My, what a prejorative, inaccurate summation of the many fine posters here who possess the experience of watching and playing hoceky...and the ability to articulate those expeirences. We certainly bring more to the table than simply ""I watched all those games too and you're wrong."

'Tis a shame if that is truly how you choose to misread the many, many insightful narratives offered up here, at least on this particular board.

Happy Thanksgiving.

It would be a perjorative inaccurate summation if what I were talking about was "the many fine posters here who posses the experience of watching and playing hockey." I said people can do that without explanation. Not that all people citing experience are doing so.

Nor did I say that reason for using stats instead of citing experience is right. I said it's more convenient and less frustrating because with experience someone else can say "no it's not" and you can't disprove it, where with stats, even if someone disagrees with conclusions, at least you have the objectivity of a measurable number. I didn't offer an evaluation of how valid either is. If you want my opinion of the relative value of stats v. observation, see my post in the thread about that on the main board.

I've played organized hockey, I've been raised in a culture and network of people who play organized hockey, I watch more hockey than anyone who knows what's good for them ever would. I don't base my opinions primarily on stats and I'm not defending those who do.
 
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Trottier

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Besides, a lot of the wisdom people like you claim all the experts in the game (TM) know is, as far as I can tell, actually coming primarily from sports journalists i.e. paid entertainers.

Hmmm. You are generalizing. If you go back in this thread (post #147), I suggested that I have heard and read many coaches and players speak highly about the goaltender who makes "the save" that preserves win. Moreso than anything else. No mention of any other types, be it media hacks, fans, etc.

Please know that I make that distinction. Always.

What does your side give for arguments?

My "side"? I didn't realize we were in a street fight. :D

If you read my couple of posts carefully, I never even came near the topic you are raising, i.e., six goals, etc. Frankly (no disrespect) I have no idea what you are talking about!

I simply responded to a poster who talked about clutch saves. Yikes!
 

overpass

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The only problem with that blog and his info is he likes to take certain parses to show his points and you're not always getting all the info.
For instance, I'm not quite sure why he includes Roy's OT record with the AV's only. Like, is he only trying to include the games when these goalies played for the more elite teams?
Why then are all of Hasek's games presented, including the ones with Buffalo.

So why does he exclude Roy's games with the Habs especially when he was something silly like 24-6?

Some points in that blog for sure but I wouldn't exactly say it's presenting everything possible to get the real unbiased truth either, like the name of the blog itself didn't tip you off to begin with heh.

TCG didn't say it in the post, but I'm pretty certain he's just working with the available data, not picking selective endpoints. The Hockey Summary Project isn't complete from 1987-88 to 1992-93, so he wasn't able to include most of Roy's Montreal years.

I've never had a problem with the numbers presented on the blog. They've always been accurate. I don't think they've been misleading either, on the whole. TDMM is picking on one or two things he would have preferred were done differently, but that's not evidence of bias or consistent misuse of numbers.

Of course you may think the analysis is biased, and I could understand that, given the title of the blog. But it's all backed up with numbers. And the author's opinion on Brodeur (and Roy, and Hasek) is follows naturally from the belief that save percentage tells you almost everything about goaltending. If you're looking for bias, I think it says something that he rates Hasek over Roy, despite being a Habs fan.
 

seventieslord

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I disagree here. I think it's quite likely that Smith could be on the tail fringe of the Top 20.

These are the goalies definitely better than Smith (only in rough order). All were included on the finished Top 100 list.

1. Plante
2. Roy
3. Hasek
4. Brodeur
5. Sawchuk
6. Dryden
7. Hall
8. Tretiak
9. Benedict
10. Broda
11. Durnan
12. Parent
13. Brimsek
14. Bower
15. Gardiner

Belfour and Holecek were not included on the Top 100 list, but they should have been. Belfour was clearly better than Smith I think, and Holecek, while really difficult to compare, really wasn't much worse than Tretiak, if at all.

George Hainsworth is ranked in the last finished Top 100 list, but probably shouldn't be, and I see no reason why he was any better than Billy Smith.

Tony Esposito certainly was a better regular season goaltender than Billy Smith, but his playoff failings are well known. There is certainly a case to rank Smith over Esposito.

Other goalies in the mix - Georges Vezina, Tiny Thompson, Roy Worters (really hard to rank), Gump Worsley, Grant Fuhr. I have seen a lot of evidence that shows Smith was more important to the Islanders than Fuhr was to the Oilers, however.

I can see Smith being rated as high as 17 and as low as 25, unless I am forgetting someone.

So we agree on the top-17 for sure.

I agree Hainsworth is not definitively better. He should be in the same "tier" as Smith.

This will likely make me unpopular, but Esposito had an incredibly long career of regular season excellence (and playoff decency) that can't be ignored. We're talking about a five-time all-star and an eight-time 30 game winner against a guy who did each once... in the same season. It's been shown that Smith had ridiculously dominant goal support, and Esposito's goal support was downright embarrassing. Neither goalie had any control over this; yet, it had a massive effect on their ability to win playoff games. With that said, I've looked at the numbers very closely and Smith faced a lot more shots in the playoffs than most people would probably think, and to his credit he stopped a lot of them. He was certainly a better playoff goalie than Esposito. But how much should we really judge them on what amounts to 13% of their combined career games? To me, it's the goalie equivalent of someone saying Claude Lemieux is better than Teemu Selanne. I don't think anyone could argue, even after acknowledging Smith was a better playoff goalie, and knowing the goal support both received, that Smith would have won a cup with Chicago and that Esposito wouldn't have won four with the Isles.

Worsley is in the Hainsworth/Smith tier IMO.

Vezina should be at the top of the Hainsworth/Smith/Worsley tier.

Worters' Hart record and anecdotes about him being a one-man show are strong enough to put him ahead of Smith, who never got any Hart consideration at a time when Mike Liut was runner-up and Dryden and Parent came close as well.

Thompson's Espo-lite: Six elite seasons in which he was either a postseason all-star or/and a vezina winner. Questionable playoffs. Partially mitigated by the wonky playoff system of the 1930s.

I think Smith was more important to the Isles dynasty than Fuhr was to the Oilers too. But also there is much more to their careers. Fuhr was a workhorse who proved he could handle a big load of games and win a lot of them for an average to above-average team. I wouldn't put him ahead, but he's mighty close. He played 60 games 4 times; Smith never did.

Would I have Smith in my top-20? No. But yeah, it's wrong to say that no one would. He could be as high as 18th, arguably.
 

seventieslord

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TCG didn't say it in the post, but I'm pretty certain he's just working with the available data, not picking selective endpoints. The Hockey Summary Project isn't complete from 1987-88 to 1992-93, so he wasn't able to include most of Roy's Montreal years.

That's what I thought too, but I wasn't sure.

Of course you may think the analysis is biased, and I could understand that, given the title of the blog. But it's all backed up with numbers. And the author's opinion on Brodeur (and Roy, and Hasek) is follows naturally from the belief that save percentage tells you almost everything about goaltending.

More importantly, it is the premise that goalies get far too much credit for wins and far too much blame for losses that is the important point of that blog that should not be lost on anyone.
 

Master_Of_Districts

Registered User
Apr 9, 2007
1,744
4
Black Ruthenia
Link to the PP article? Wouldn't that be fairly easy to control for by only look at road save percentages? It's not like Brodeur's career is short enough that it would make the sample size too small.

What I wonder is why he would be so biased towards Hasek. He's from Alberta iirc and I don't think he has anything to with the Czeches, Sabres, or Red Wings. Maybe he originally wasn't and how he's just biased towards his preconceived notions.

It wouldn't surprise me at all that the kind of errors and biases you guys are accusing him of are there, but I still think his posts are very valuable just because of what, in principle, he is demonstrating can be done and how these things can be looked at. "The rain is clutch in the playoffs."

I remember TCG mentioning that he was a Roy fan.

He posts on this forum from time-to-time, so perhaps he could clarify.
 

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