How much do the Pens miss Letang?

[Pikesburgh]

His +/- shows a lot. All rankings are his +/- ranking out of every Pens D-man.
2007-08 regular season: Ranked 8th in +/- out of all Pens defensemen.
2007-08 post season: Tied for 2nd in +/- out of all Pens defensemen.

2008-09 reg: 10th out of all Pens D.
2008-09 post: 5th out of all Pens D.

2009-10 reg: 7th out of all Pens D.
2009-10 post: 7th out of all Pens D. He was dead last.

2010-11 reg: 2nd out of all Pens D. His first season where he's above avg. in +/-
2010-11 post: 3rd out of all Pens D. 1st post-season being above avg.

2011-12 reg: 1st out of all Pens D. Great season. 2nd above avg. season
2011-12 post: 6th out of all Pens D.

2012-13 reg: 2nd out of all Pens D. 3rd above avg. season
2012-13 post: 3rd out of all Pens D. 2nd above avg. post-season

2013-14 reg: 11th out of all 11 Pens D. Dead last. Engelland, Scuderi, Bortuzzo all ahead of him.
2013-14 post: 3rd out of all Pens D. 3rd above avg. post-season.

2014-15 reg: 2nd out of all Pens D.
2014-15 post: Injured.

2015-16 reg: 3rd out of all Pens D.
2015-16 post: Tied for 1st out of all Pens D.

2016-17 reg: 7th out of all Pens D.
2016-17 post: Injured.

The pattern is simple. He's been mediocre as an all around defenseman. Plus minus among teammates shows what players/lines are doing good or bad. It means a lot more than comparing them to players in the league. He's been the worst d-man on the team twice. Even so, when you do look at his rankings out of the entire league, some are pretty bad.

He ranked 261st out of 304 d-men in the entire league in the regular season in 2013-14.
He ranked 112th out of 116 d-men in the entire league in the playoffs in 2009-10.

Bottom line is great d-men, or even good d-men never rank THAT low. He's a liability defensively. He's great at making breakout passes, but turns the puck over a lot. The Pens could use him with getting the puck out of the zone, but that's about it. He might help defensively thanks to his speed and agility. On the PP he doesn't do much if he's choosing slappers over wristers. I like Letang a lot, but he's not a top 5 all around defenseman. Offense wise yes when he's playing well. All around no.

 

[Penske]

 

[hagelin1381]

His +/- shows a lot. All rankings are his +/- ranking out of every Pens D-man.
2007-08 regular season: Ranked 8th in +/- out of all Pens defensemen.
2007-08 post season: Tied for 2nd in +/- out of all Pens defensemen.

2008-09 reg: 10th out of all Pens D.
2008-09 post: 5th out of all Pens D.

2009-10 reg: 7th out of all Pens D.
2009-10 post: 7th out of all Pens D. He was dead last.

2010-11 reg: 2nd out of all Pens D. His first season where he's above avg. in +/-
2010-11 post: 3rd out of all Pens D. 1st post-season being above avg.

2011-12 reg: 1st out of all Pens D. Great season. 2nd above avg. season
2011-12 post: 6th out of all Pens D.

2012-13 reg: 2nd out of all Pens D. 3rd above avg. season
2012-13 post: 3rd out of all Pens D. 2nd above avg. post-season

2013-14 reg: 11th out of all 11 Pens D. Dead last. Engelland, Scuderi, Bortuzzo all ahead of him.
2013-14 post: 3rd out of all Pens D. 3rd above avg. post-season.

2014-15 reg: 2nd out of all Pens D.
2014-15 post: Injured.

2015-16 reg: 3rd out of all Pens D.
2015-16 post: Tied for 1st out of all Pens D.

2016-17 reg: 7th out of all Pens D.
2016-17 post: Injured.

The pattern is simple. He's been mediocre as an all around defenseman. Plus minus among teammates shows what players/lines are doing good or bad. It means a lot more than comparing them to players in the league. He's been the worst d-man on the team twice. Even so, when you do look at his rankings out of the entire league, some are pretty bad.

He ranked 261st out of 304 d-men in the entire league in the regular season in 2013-14.
He ranked 112th out of 116 d-men in the entire league in the playoffs in 2009-10.

Bottom line is great d-men, or even good d-men never rank THAT low. He's a liability defensively. He's great at making breakout passes, but turns the puck over a lot. The Pens could use him with getting the puck out of the zone, but that's about it. He might help defensively thanks to his speed and agility. On the PP he doesn't do much if he's choosing slappers over wristers. I like Letang a lot, but he's not a top 5 all around defenseman. Offense wise yes when he's playing well. All around no.

+/- is the worst stat you can use to judge a defenseman

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

Tremendously, they'd sweep the playoffs if healthy.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

Different meaning good? They are 7-2 against two teams that combined for 226 points and a +135 goal differential in the regular season.

Have you watched any of the games? The Pens are consistently being outshot. Their record is due to Fleury playing out of his mind and their offensive forwards scoring at will the second they have a scoring chance.

If you combined this year's forwards' offensive touch with last year's team's performance with Letang healthy, the Pens are likely 8-0 right now and dominating both teams.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Have you watched any of the games? The Pens are consistently being outshot. Their record is due to Fleury playing out of his mind and their offensive forwards scoring at will the second they have a scoring chance.

If you combined this year's forwards' offensive touch with last year's team's performance with Letang healthy, the Pens are likely 8-0 right now and dominating both teams.

I have been watching. Fleury has been incredible. Yea, they've been getting out shot, but you have to take score effects into account, as well as the fact that they've played the #1 and #4 teams from the regular season.

 

[66-30-33]

Tremendously, they'd sweep the playoffs if healthy.

I dunno about all these playoffs but we certainly would have an 8-0 record right now if healthy. This sucks! Maybe next year.

 

[aufheben]

I have been watching. Fleury has been incredible. Yea, they've been getting out shot, but you have to take score effects into account, as well as the fact that they've played the #1 and #4 teams from the regular season.

Do you think Marc-Andre Fleury is going to maintain a .935% save percentage for the rest of his career?

This is like saying that the 2001 Avs didn't need Peter Forsberg.

His +/- shows a lot. All rankings are his +/- ranking out of every Pens D-man.
2007-08 regular season: Ranked 8th in +/- out of all Pens defensemen.
2007-08 post season: Tied for 2nd in +/- out of all Pens defensemen.

This is sometimes news to those that use plus/minus as a stat. The number is not exclusive to 5v5, or even strength. The plus/minus statistic includes all even strength goals, all goals with either goaltender pulled (as hockey views goalie pulled as even strength), and short handed goals.

https://hockey-graphs.com/2016/11/0...-statistic-in-hockey-and-should-be-abolished/

 

[skillhockey]

I think they miss defensive leader, whether it's because of Fleury is in net instead of Murray or Letang ,i don't know. In last game there were moments they were in panic in own zone lacking any kind of defensive structure.

 

[WheresRamziAbid]

Not having Letang is why the Pens have to keep playing this collapsing defense. They dont have the puck movers to consistently get out clean exits so they are playing the "safe" high and hard off the glass route. Which is a leading causer to why they are getting hammered in Corsi.

They are only winning to this point because they have received great goal tending, have done a pretty good job limiting high danger chances considering lack of possession and have finished off their opportunities when the chances arise.

But their room for error is very small without Letang.

 

[HandshakeLine]

The Penguins miss Letang like we miss the water when we're burning.

 

[Pikesburgh]

+/- is the worst stat you can use to judge a defenseman

Not when you're comparing him to his linemates or players on his team, since they are in correlation to each other and all play in front of the same goalie.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Not when you're comparing him to his linemates or players on his team, since they are in correlation to each other and all play in front of the same goalie.

they play different minutes vs different competition though.

 

[jdpitt05]

Not having Letang is why the Pens have to keep playing this collapsing defense. They dont have the puck movers to consistently get out clean exits so they are playing the "safe" high and hard off the glass route. Which is a leading causer to why they are getting hammered in Corsi.

They are only winning to this point because they have received great goal tending, have done a pretty good job limiting high danger chances considering lack of possession and have finished off their opportunities when the chances arise.

But their room for error is very small without Letang.

Daley is playing hurt as well, so he is not his normal puck moving self. So he hasn't really been able to pick up the slack. It really isn't that hard to imagine why we get hemmed in our zone so often. Dumoulin, Cole, Maatta, Daley (slowed), Hainsey, Schultz. That group doesn't really scream mobility.

 

[aufheben]

Not when you're comparing him to his linemates or players on his team, since they are in correlation to each other and all play in front of the same goalie.

Did you read the article I linked? +/- is absolutely useless.

 

[PensPlz]

We miss him a lot.

 

[wgknestrick]

Did you read the article I linked? +/- is absolutely useless.

It's not the best for sure, but the poster still was making a valid point. Letang is not that great at 5v5 goal differential when he's on the ice, and also negatively impacts the GF% of other teammates (WYWOY numbers). No reason to dismiss the discussion topic based on his/her knowledge of stats. Just because the cops made a minor mistake gathering evidence doesn't mean you walk.

Over the last 2 seasons, Letang is PIT's 6th best defender at 5v5 GF%, 6th in 5v5 GA/60, and is only their 5th best at 5v5 GF/60.

Crosby's GF% is 61% without Letang and only 55% with him
Malkin's GF% is 61% without Letang and only 41% with him
Bonino's GF% is 56% without Letang and only 42% with him
Cullen's GF% is 52% without Letang and only 37% with him

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayerwowycharts.php?pid=764&season=2015-17&sit=5v5

That's PIT's top 4Cs all seeing significant degradation in their 5v5 scoring differential when paired with Letang vs any other 4 defenders. Not very flattering. AT ALL. I can easily correlate that PIT might be a better team at 5v5 without Letang from that data, right? Who benefits from Letang being out on the ice with them vs the rest of the D? Not the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th lines........

PIT doesn't really miss him if that is what they would get out of him in the playoffs. They are probably happy he's out to be honest.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

It's not the best for sure, but the poster still was making a valid point. Letang is not that great at 5v5 goal differential when he's on the ice, and also negatively impacts the GF% of other teammates (WYWOY numbers). No reason to dismiss the discussion topic based on his/her knowledge of stats. Just because the cops made a minor mistake gathering evidence doesn't mean you walk.

Over the last 2 seasons, Letang is PIT's 6th best defender at 5v5 GF%, 6th in 5v5 GA/60, and is only their 5th best at 5v5 GF/60.

Crosby's GF% is 61% without Letang and only 55% with him
Malkin's GF% is 61% without Letang and only 41% with him
Bonino's GF% is 56% without Letang and only 42% with him
Cullen's GF% is 52% without Letang and only 37% with him

http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayerwowycharts.php?pid=764&season=2015-17&sit=5v5

That's PIT's top 4Cs all seeing significant degradation in their 5v5 scoring differential when paired with Letang vs any other 4 defenders. Not very flattering. AT ALL. I can easily correlate that PIT might be a better team at 5v5 without Letang from that data, right? Who benefits from Letang being out on the ice with them vs the rest of the D? Not the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th lines........

PIT doesn't really miss him if that is what they would get out of him in the playoffs. They are probably happy he's out to be honest.

So basically a coaching staff that just won the cup was stupidly playing him almost 30 mins a night in the playoffs, even though you claim he is a detriment to the team?

Think I'll go with their opinion and what my eyes tell me, over durrrr stats!

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

So basically a coaching staff that just won the cup was stupidly playing him almost 30 mins a night in the playoffs, even though you claim he is a detriment to the team?

Think I'll go with their opinion and what my eyes tell me, over durrrr stats!

People were posting stats that favor Letang, are those irrelevant as well?

I've also never understood the whole appeal to authority thing. Sullivan is a great coach, but even great coaches can make poor decisions.

 

[The Shovel Penguin]

I think anyone who watches the Pens regularly would know how much we miss him.

 

[Sam Spade]

Possession wise sure they miss him, but who cares they are winning all of their games and can score at will.

They should consider seeing if some sucker team will take him at the deadline next season.

 

[Ogrezilla]

Possession wise sure they miss him, but who cares they are winning all of their games and can score at will.

They should consider seeing if some sucker team will take him at the deadline next season.

Some sucker to take on one of the best d in the league. Right.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

People were posting stats that favor Letang, are those irrelevant as well?

I've also never understood the whole appeal to authority thing. Sullivan is a great coach, but even great coaches can make poor decisions.

Neilson's system of applying tape to grade players for individual scoring chances and liability for GA has been ever evolving.

Are you telling me Sullivan and his staff don't understand how to break down tape of their own system and grade Letang accordingly?

Based on his minutes and being played in all situations, especially key minutes, I'm going to say he graded out quite favorably.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Neilson's system of applying tape to grade players for individual scoring chances and liability for GA has been ever evolving.

Are you telling me Sullivan and his staff don't understand how to break down tape of their own system and grade Letang accordingly?

Based on his minutes and being played in all situations, especially key minutes, I'm going to say he graded out quite favorably.

I'm telling​ you that appealing to authority in such a way is stupid. Are you telling me that Sullivan and his staff are incapable of making poor decisions / evaluations? Even the best coaches make bad usage decisions.

For my money, Sullivan is the best coach in the league. That doesn't make all of his hockey decisions indisputably correct.

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I miss letang