How much do the Pens miss Letang?

[KrisLetAngry]

His +/- shows a lot. All rankings are his +/- ranking out of every Pens D-man.
2007-08 regular season: Ranked 8th in +/- out of all Pens defensemen.
2007-08 post season: Tied for 2nd in +/- out of all Pens defensemen.

2008-09 reg: 10th out of all Pens D.
2008-09 post: 5th out of all Pens D.

2009-10 reg: 7th out of all Pens D.
2009-10 post: 7th out of all Pens D. He was dead last.

2010-11 reg: 2nd out of all Pens D. His first season where he's above avg. in +/-
2010-11 post: 3rd out of all Pens D. 1st post-season being above avg.

2011-12 reg: 1st out of all Pens D. Great season. 2nd above avg. season
2011-12 post: 6th out of all Pens D.

2012-13 reg: 2nd out of all Pens D. 3rd above avg. season
2012-13 post: 3rd out of all Pens D. 2nd above avg. post-season

2013-14 reg: 11th out of all 11 Pens D. Dead last. Engelland, Scuderi, Bortuzzo all ahead of him.
2013-14 post: 3rd out of all Pens D. 3rd above avg. post-season.

2014-15 reg: 2nd out of all Pens D.
2014-15 post: Injured.

2015-16 reg: 3rd out of all Pens D.
2015-16 post: Tied for 1st out of all Pens D.

2016-17 reg: 7th out of all Pens D.
2016-17 post: Injured.

The pattern is simple. He's been mediocre as an all around defenseman. Plus minus among teammates shows what players/lines are doing good or bad. It means a lot more than comparing them to players in the league. He's been the worst d-man on the team twice. Even so, when you do look at his rankings out of the entire league, some are pretty bad.

He ranked 261st out of 304 d-men in the entire league in the regular season in 2013-14.
He ranked 112th out of 116 d-men in the entire league in the playoffs in 2009-10.

Bottom line is great d-men, or even good d-men never rank THAT low. He's a liability defensively. He's great at making breakout passes, but turns the puck over a lot. The Pens could use him with getting the puck out of the zone, but that's about it. He might help defensively thanks to his speed and agility. On the PP he doesn't do much if he's choosing slappers over wristers. I like Letang a lot, but he's not a top 5 all around defenseman. Offense wise yes when he's playing well. All around no.

Using +/- what's next Giroux adjusted stats

 

[Penske]

I think anyone who watches the Pens regularly would know how much we miss him.

This. Out of our injuries he's the one that hurts the most. More so than Crosby and Murray in these playoffs.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I'm telling​ you that appealing to authority in such a way is stupid. Are you telling me that Sullivan and his staff are incapable of making poor decisions / evaluations? Even the best coaches make bad usage decisions.

For my money, Sullivan is the best coach in the league. That doesn't make all of his hockey decisions indisputably correct.

I don't have to appeal to authority because I know the game down to the nuts and bolts, and I know how valuable Letang is from my own eyes. However, no one cares how well I know the game, so it's much easier to point out how much Sullivan played him, and the situations he used Letang in.

Sullivan's decision making with Letang matches up exactly with what I see.

If you or anyone else wants to spout off meaningless stats either which way, cool.

No coach in his right mind will play a blueliner a herculean 30 mins a night if he isn't grading out extraordinarily well during their film sessions.

Suggesting otherwise is just stupid and being misinformed about how coaches grade players.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I don't have to appeal to authority because I know the game down to the nuts and bolts, and I know how valuable Letang is from my own eyes. However, no one cares how well I know the game, so it's much easier to point out how much Sullivan played him, and the situations he used Letang in.

Sullivan's decision making with Letang matches up exactly with what I see.

If you or anyone else wants to spout off meaningless stats either which way, cool.

No coach in his right mind will play a blueliner a herculean 30 mins a night if he isn't grading out extraordinarily well during their film sessions.

Suggesting otherwise is just stupid and being misinformed about how coaches grade players.

Nobody is suggesting that Sullivan would evaluate Letang poorly and then play him a ton. How are you getting that impression, seriously?

What I'm saying is that great coaching staffs can make evaluation mistakes, as can posters who claim to know the game down do the nuts and bolts.

 

[ncm7772]

They miss him immensely.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Nobody is suggesting that Sullivan would evaluate Letang poorly and then play him a ton. How are you getting that impression, seriously?

What I'm saying is that great coaching staffs can make evaluation mistakes, as can posters who claim to know the game down do the nuts and bolts.

How could you possibly argue he made a mistake evaluating Letang? It makes zero sense given the end result.

I'd suggest people who don't follow the team closely and rely on stats, are much more prone to making silly claims that are inaccurate, like Letang isn't missed, than the opposite.

Sullivan evaluated Letang quite accurately, rode him as his workhorse blueliner to the tune of 30 mins a night, and earned a ring on his finger for it.

Suggesting it was some kind of mistake on Sullivan's part is quite frankly, stupid and misinformed.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

How could you possibly argue he made a mistake evaluating Letang? It makes zero sense given the end result.

I'd suggest people who don't follow the team closely and rely on stats, are much more prone to making silly claims that are inaccurate, like Letang isn't missed, than the opposite.

Sullivan evaluated Letang quite accurately, rode him as his workhorse blueliner to the tune of 30 mins a night, and earned a ring on his finger for it.

Suggesting it was some kind of mistake on Sullivan's part is quite frankly, stupid and misinformed.

How could you say the Pens miss Letang so much given the current results in this year's playoffs?

I've watched a ton of Letang, and the pens have missed him exactly as much as I would have expected.

 

[Dylonus]

Kris Letang is a fantastic PPQB.

I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true at all. Letang doesn't QB the PP well at all. Not one bit, honestly.

That showed clear as day his breakout year when Malkin / Crosby went down. To this day, he still has issues and makes BAD mistakes on the PP.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

How could you say the Pens miss Letang so much given the current results in this year's playoffs?

I've watched a ton of Letang, and the pens have missed him exactly as much as I would have expected.

Uh, MAF playing out of his mind, having superior fwd depth and being resilient as hell.

Suggesting this year's results proves they don't miss Letang is asinine as hell, and I'm 100% sure Sullivan would be the first one to roll his eyes if someone was dumb enough to tell him that.

When the Pens won without Lemieux, did that mean they didn't miss him?

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Uh, MAF playing out of his mind, having superior fwd depth and being resilient as hell.

Suggesting this year's results proves they don't miss Letang is asinine as hell, and I'm 100% sure Sullivan would be the first one to roll his eyes if someone was dumb enough to tell him that.

When the Pens won without Lemieux, did that mean they didn't miss him?

And last year, they had the same forward depth and Murray was fantastic. I'm just highlighting the hypocrisy of your previous statement.

You can keep appealing to authority but it only makes your argument look weaker.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

And last year, they had the same forward depth and Murray was fantastic. I'm just highlighting the hypocrisy of your previous statement.

You can keep appealing to authority but it only makes your argument look weaker.

They had Guentzel last year? That is curious because I swear I saw him playing for WBS.

And suggesting it is hypocritical is once again, more silliness from you.

Having a talented team that is resilient doesn't mean they don't miss their best players when they are hurt. I don't even know where to begin with something that dumb.

The Pens certainly missed Crosby when he was hurt, but found a way to win Wed. They most certainly missed Lemieux when he was hurt, but they had great players that knew how to win and step up when he went down.

So your misguided argument would have to apply to both Crosby and Lemieux as well.

And uh ya, that authority won a cup with his decision making, which tells me he knows a hell of lot more about what Letang meant to the Pens than you.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

They had Guentzel last year? That is curious because I swear I saw him playing for WBS.

And suggesting it is hypocritical is once again, more silliness from you.

Having a talented team that is resilient doesn't mean they don't miss their best players when they are hurt. I don't even know where to begin with something that dumb.

The Pens certainly missed Crosby when he was hurt, but found a way to win Wed. They most certainly missed Lemieux when he was hurt, but they had great players that knew how to win and step up when he went down.

So your misguided argument would have to apply to both Crosby and Lemieux as well.

And uh ya, that authority won a cup with his decision making, which tells me he knows a hell of lot more about what Letang meant to the Pens than you.

So are you saying that because they have a rookie Jake Guentzel, they haven't missed Letang the past 9 playoff games?

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

So are you saying that because they have a rookie Jake Guentzel, they haven't missed Letang the past 9 playoff games?

Reading comprehension goes a long way.

Guentzel is one of the guys stepping up huge in Letang's absence. I flat out said other guys have stepped up to ease the burden when Lemieux, Crosby and Letang have been hurt. That isn't the same thing as not missing him, but that's common sense that is conveniently avoiding you.

So I'm waiting on your answer that Lemieux and Crosby weren't missed when they were hurt and the Pens won. Were they not missed and still important to the team's success, despite being able to win without them?

 

[Novak Djokovic]

Whiskey, have you seen them play? Pittsburgh last year dominated teams. Pittsburgh this year is mostly getting dominated. Just look at possession statistics. They have quick strike offense that is clicking.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Reading comprehension goes a long way.

Guentzel is one of the guys stepping up huge in Letang's absence. I flat out said other guys have stepped up to ease the burden when Lemieux, Crosby and Letang have been hurt. That isn't the same thing as not missing him, but that's common sense that is conveniently avoiding you.

So I'm waiting on your answer that Lemieux and Crosby weren't missed when they were hurt and the Pens won. Were they not missed and still important to the team's success, despite being able to win without them?

You mean the 2 games without they went 1-1?

I'm not going to comment on the Lemieux stuff because I don't remember those series.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Whiskey, have you seen them play? Pittsburgh last year dominated teams. Pittsburgh this year is mostly getting dominated. Just look at possession statistics. They have quick strike offense that is clicking.

Yes, I've watched them. They aren't dominating possession but they've been excellent at protecting the net and their PP without​ Letang is much better. They have also done a much better job of limiting odd man rushes.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

You mean the 2 games without they went 1-1?

I'm not going to comment on the Lemieux stuff because I don't remember those series.

Why not shift it over to Peter Forsberg. He missed the last two series in '01 and the Avs still won the cup.

He obviously wasn't important to the Avs.

Oilers won a cup without Gretzky. Dude was just holding them back and he never won a cup without the Oilers anyway, right?

Yes, I've watched them. They aren't dominating possession but they've been excellent at protecting the net and their PP without​ Letang is much better. They have also done a much better job of limiting odd man rushes.

You seriously just typed that out and wanted to keep your credibility here?

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Why not shift it over to Peter Forsberg. He missed the last two series in '01 and the Avs still won the cup.

He obviously wasn't important to the Avs.

Oilers won a cup without Gretzky. Dude was just holding them back and he never won a cup without the Oilers anyway, right?

Did either of those teams go 7-2 against two of the top 4 teams in the league?

 

[Pi]

Yes, I've watched them. They aren't dominating possession but they've been excellent at protecting the net and their PP without​ Letang is much better. They have also done a much better job of limiting odd man rushes.

Yeah, have to hand it to Sullivan to change game plan on the go. This is not how Pittsburgh wants to play but have to play because of injuries.

I also think they will dominate possesion against any team they face past Washington.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

Did either of those teams go 7-2 against two of the top 4 teams in the league?

Did those teams win the cup without their superstar players?

Simple question.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Yeah, have to hand it to Sullivan to change game plan on the go. This is not how Pittsburgh wants to play but have to play because of injuries.

I also think they will dominate possesion against any team they face past Washington.

I don't see why you wouldn't want to play the way they've been playing. Limiting prime scoring opportunities and having a deadly PP. You could say that by playing this style, they don't really miss Letang all that much.

 

[Mr Jiggyfly]

I don't see why you wouldn't want to play the way they've been playing. Limiting prime scoring opportunities and having a deadly PP. You could say that by playing this style, they don't really miss Letang all that much.

Because it's way too risky...

I'm going to be straight here...

I've always felt you were one of the best posters around here, and I'm not really having any fun boxing you in a corner in this debate.

Too much respect for you and it's not enjoyable like it usually is for me, so I'm stepping out with my last thought being you are really wrong about Letang.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Because it's way too risky...

I'm going to be straight here...

I've always felt you were one of the best posters around here, and I'm not really having any fun boxing you in a corner in this debate.

Too much respect for you and it's not enjoyable like it usually is for me, so I'm stepping out with my last thought being you are really wrong about Letang.

I appreciate it and feel the same. Agree to disagree.