How many points would a peak "Big 3" score in todays NHL?

[clunk]

Kucherov, Drai and McDavid wouldn't have survived the DPE Redux; a time when men were men and women knew their places.

Based

 

[Regal]

About the same, maybe ever so slightly more. I feel old with some of the replies in this thread. People acting like their era is dead long live the new era.

People talking about 140+ like we're back in the 80's...70+ goals? Haha Ground control to major Tom...

Wtf is a DPE redux? Crovkin didn't play in anything resembling the DPE. Sounds like you might have finally gone off the deep end here friendo, McDavid and Drai giving you insomnia or something?

Kucherov just hit 128 and Draisaitl will probably end up around there. We're going to have three players probably get close to 60 goals including a 34 year old Ovechkin. Over 4 seasons from 13-14 to 16-17, we had a combined 36 seasons of a player scoring a PPG or better with at least 40 games played. We have 20 just this year. In that same 4 year span, we had 3 seasons of 90 or more points. We already have 4 players at 90 points 3/4 of the way through the season. League average scoring is the highest it's been since 05-06, and you'd have to go back to 95-96 to find another season that's higher. The last two years are absolutely a different scoring era than what we've seen the past decade. This isn't some nostalgia fantasy. It's fact.

Ovechkin scored 65 goals in 07-08 when league scoring was 2.78 GPG. Scoring 70 in a league with an average of 3.03 is not completely outrageous, especially since, as mentioned above, he's currently on pace for 58 as a 34 year old. Malkin paced for 119 points when league scoring was 2.72 GPG. Adjusting for today that's 133 points. And while there's a few votes for it, no one in the comments said over 70 or over 140, they used those as the high end, and most votes are for 130-140. And they're not really unrealistic given the totals we're seeing.

 

[nowhereman]

About the same, maybe ever so slightly more. I feel old with some of the replies in this thread. People acting like their era is dead long live the new era.

People talking about 140+ like we're back in the 80's...70+ goals? Haha Ground control to major Tom...

Wtf is a DPE redux? Crovkin didn't play in anything resembling the DPE. Sounds like you might have finally gone off the deep end here friendo, McDavid and Drai giving you insomnia or something?

You don't have to be Leonhard Euler to see that scoring has gone up and lesser players than the Big 3 are putting up major numbers. I'd argue that the Big 3, at their best, would be the three best players in the NHL (with McDavid making a case for himself but would be on the outside looking in).

Laugh it up all you want but you're pretending as though scoring can't fluctuate considerably over a short period of time. Just look at the difference between scoring in the early 1990s compared to scoring in the mid-to-late 1990s. You seem to scoff at the notion that OV wouldn't score 70+ in today's NHL, when he had 65 in a time where only a couple of players could break 100 points.

 

[moropanov]

Mcdavid is already better offensively than Peak Ovetskin or Malkin .. Crosby was maybe equal. Drasaitl is about even with Peak Malkin ATM. Kucherov's last season regular season was statistically greater than Any regular season Ovechkin or Malkin have had comparing/adjusting to era.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Peak Ovi scored 65 goals in 2008 when scoring was way lower than it is this season. Pretty sure that he would be flirting with 75 goals at his peak with the current Caps team this season.

Crosby and Malkin would be flirting with high 130s pts as some others already mentionned.

 

[bobholly39]

Peak Ovi scored 65 goals in 2008 when scoring was way lower than it is this season. Pretty sure that he would be flirting with 75 goals at his peak with the current Caps team this season.

Crosby and Malkin would be flirting with high 130s pts as some others already mentionned.

Why was scoring lower in 2008?

sv% of goalies in 2008 was 909, same as this year.
4.28 power plays per game in 2008, compared to only 2.98 this year. Sounds like it's advantage 2008.

I think looking at league averages to adjust raw point totals is a flawed system. Unless you can explain why scoring in 2008 was harder than it is this season - and agree on by how much, and adjust accordingly - all we're doing is penalizing this year's player for scoring more, and giving a boost to players in 2008 for scoring less.

There has to be a reason.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Why was scoring lower in 2008?

sv% of goalies in 2008 was 909, same as this year.
4.28 power plays per game in 2008, compared to only 2.98 this year. Sounds like it's advantage 2008.

I think looking at league averages to adjust raw point totals is a flawed system. Unless you can explain why scoring in 2008 was harder than it is this season - and agree on by how much, and adjust accordingly - all we're doing is penalizing this year's player for scoring more, and giving a boost to players in 2008 for scoring less.

There has to be a reason.

Reduced goalie pads, 3v3 overtime, offensive zone faceoff rules etc all played a role in increasing the scoring in the last couple of years.

 

[AD1066]

Weird to see mid 2000s nostalgia instead of the usual 90s nostalgia on these boards

Had the same thought. Getting older is weird.

I'm glad scoring has been trending upward lately, especially as someone like Ovechkin sets his sights on the all-time goals record.

 

[tony d]

130-140.

 

[Varan]

You seem to be missing an option...

what option?

 

[AvroArrow]

Kucherov, Drai and McDavid wouldn't have survived the DPE Redux; a time when men were men and women knew their places.

Trying to figure out what you meant by that comment ? They belong on the ice, on the pitch, any court, or pretty much anywhere "men belong" too. Or were you referring to those 3 as women ? Either way, extremely ignorant comment.

 

[daver]

Trying to figure out what you meant by that comment ? They belong on the ice, on the pitch, any court, or pretty much anywhere "men belong" too. Or were you referring to those 3 as women ? Either way, extremely ignorant comment.

Way to go. I guess you can sleep well tonight knowing you have stood up against misogyny and sexism.

It's a joke ffs.

 

[daver]

Why was scoring lower in 2008?

sv% of goalies in 2008 was 909, same as this year.
4.28 power plays per game in 2008, compared to only 2.98 this year. Sounds like it's advantage 2008.

I think looking at league averages to adjust raw point totals is a flawed system. Unless you can explain why scoring in 2008 was harder than it is this season - and agree on by how much, and adjust accordingly - all we're doing is penalizing this year's player for scoring more, and giving a boost to players in 2008 for scoring less.

There has to be a reason.

Are you trying to argue that the league has seen a significant shift up in talent recently?

Then explain how stars from five to ten year ago still up there in scoring (Crosby, Malkin, Giroux, Kane, OV)?

A look at the # of 80 point scorers or PPG players in 07/08 vs. this year or last year clearly shows the pack of elite scorers is scoring higher. Disagreeing with subjective opinion on why scoring may be higher doesn't change this statistical reality.

 

[JackSlater]

I was quite confused about who the big three was. Seeing that it is apparently Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin I'm only more confused. They'd probably be very competitive if not a bit higher than the typical top scorers now, as that's generally where they were at their bests.

 

[Paul4587]

what option?

125-130

 

[bobholly39]

Reduced goalie pads, 3v3 overtime, offensive zone faceoff rules etc all played a role in increasing the scoring in the last couple of years.

I can't find OT point totals online for some reason. But in 2008, Washington had 7 OT wins. Last year, Tampa had 7. This year - Edmonton has 4. 3vs3 OT has had no real impact on points imo. At most we're talking 4-5 points total for a player in a season.

Reduced goalie pads? Maybe. But that's my point - don't just look raw point totals, and because one year players score more say "higher scoring era" and one year when they score less say "lower scoring era". At the end of the day 128 points is more than 112 or 108 points.

If you want to argue that Ovi or Malkin had better seasons than Kucherov, or Drai - ok, make the actual argument. Talk about goalie pads and how it affects scoring. I've heard very little around the league about goalie pads since they changed a few years ago. Are goalies/players/coaches acknowledging this is leading to more goals?

Are you trying to argue that the league has seen a significant shift up in talent recently?

Then explain how stars from five to ten year ago still up there in scoring (Crosby, Malkin, Giroux, Kane, OV)?

A look at the # of 80 point scorers or PPG players in 07/08 vs. this year or last year clearly shows the pack of elite scorers is scoring higher. Disagreeing with subjective opinion on why scoring may be higher doesn't change this statistical reality.

I'm not arguing anything. I'm saying 128 points is higher than 112 points. If you want to argue that Malkin's season is better than Kucherov - I think it falls on you to explain why.

 

[daver]

I'm not arguing anything. I'm saying 128 points is higher than 112 points. If you want to argue that Malkin's season is better than Kucherov - I think it falls on you to explain why.

You are far too experienced a poster to be playing the "raw points are everything" game. Not going to engage because we are into the completely subjective speculation game where no argument can ever change your clearly entrenched position.

If you want to rank seasons by raw points then all we have to do is look at this list:

NHL.com Stats

 

[AvroArrow]

Way to go. I guess you can sleep well tonight knowing you have stood up against misogyny and sexism.

It's a joke ffs.

I re-read that like 100 times, i still don't get the joke

 

[bobholly39]

You are far too experienced a poster to be playing the "raw points are everything" game. Not going to engage because we are into the completely subjective speculation game where no argument can ever change your clearly entrenched position.

If you want to rank seasons by raw points then all we have to do is look at this list:

NHL.com Stats

I'm not saying raw points are everything. Of course they're not.

But the opposite is true too. Raw points are not nothing. Looking at scoring in a season vs peers isn't the only metric. You have to be able to explain why there's an increase/decrease in scoring, before you completely discard the higher point totals.

Drai and Kucherov are having two perfect storms of a season. I'm not so ready to say that Malkin in 2012 or Ovechkin in 2008 or Crosby in any of his seasons (the full ones - not the partial ones he didn't finish) would have surpassed those totals this season or last. I think it's unfair to both Kucherov and Drai to just jump to that conclusion too quickly.

It's the exact same thing in the other thread, asking about Crosby and McDavid vs Gretzky in the 80s - so many voters saying both McDavid and Crosby outscore Gretzky. No. Would Crosby score more than 120, and McDavid beat his own best in the 80s? Of course. Would they score above 215? I highly, highly doubt it.

Adjusting is not an exact science. People are way too quick to make assumptions and dismiss higher totals all the time I find.

 

[daver]

I'm not saying raw points are everything. Of course they're not.

But the opposite is true too. Raw points are not nothing. Looking at scoring in a season vs peers isn't the only metric. You have to be able to explain why there's an increase/decrease in scoring, before you completely discard the higher point totals.

Drai and Kucherov are having two perfect storms of a season. I'm not so ready to say that Malkin in 2012 or Ovechkin in 2008 or Crosby in any of his seasons (the full ones - not the partial ones he didn't finish) would have surpassed those totals this season or last. I think it's unfair to both Kucherov and Drai to just jump to that conclusion too quickly.

It's the exact same thing in the other thread, asking about Crosby and McDavid vs Gretzky in the 80s - so many voters saying both McDavid and Crosby outscore Gretzky. No. Would Crosby score more than 120, and McDavid beat his own best in the 80s? Of course. Would they score above 215? I highly, highly doubt it.

Adjusting is not an exact science. People are way too quick to make assumptions and dismiss higher totals all the time I find.

Why? It is what it is.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

I can't find OT point totals online for some reason. But in 2008, Washington had 7 OT wins. Last year, Tampa had 7. This year - Edmonton has 4. 3vs3 OT has had no real impact on points imo. At most we're talking 4-5 points total for a player in a season.

Reduced goalie pads? Maybe. But that's my point - don't just look raw point totals, and because one year players score more say "higher scoring era" and one year when they score less say "lower scoring era". At the end of the day 128 points is more than 112 or 108 points.

If you want to argue that Ovi or Malkin had better seasons than Kucherov, or Drai - ok, make the actual argument. Talk about goalie pads and how it affects scoring. I've heard very little around the league about goalie pads since they changed a few years ago. Are goalies/players/coaches acknowledging this is leading to more goals?



I'm not arguing anything. I'm saying 128 points is higher than 112 points. If you want to argue that Malkin's season is better than Kucherov - I think it falls on you to explain why.

Why is Malkin’s season more impressive?

1) Scoring average. Even if you don’t like that argument, it’s still very valuable when discussing which player was better during a given season. The GPG average in 2012 was 2,73 which is the 4th lowest scoring year since the 2005 lockout, the lowest one being 2015-2016 with 2,71. Meanwhile, last season the goal per game average was up at 3,01 which is the 3rd highest since the lockout, the first one being the 2005-2006 season where the GPG average was at 3,08. Want it or not that’s a big difference and it certainly impacted the players point totals.

2) Quality of teammates. In 2012, Malkin played without Sidney Crosby for the majority of the season (Sid played 22 games). His linemates were James Neal, who before that season had a career high of 55 pts and never reached 60 once after he left Malkin. His other winger was an aging Chris Kunitz who had a career high of 60 pts before that season and hadn’t reached 50 pts the 5 years prior to 2012. Letang only played 50 games that season too, so at some point, Malkin was playing without Letang AND Crosby in the lineup and was still dominating. On the other side, Kucherov was playing on the same line as an upcoming star in Brayden Point while playing on one of the best PPs in the league with Stamkos and Norris winner Hedman.

3) Primary points.
Malkin: 96
Kucherov: 95

Malkin has one more primary point while playing in a lower scoring season. I don’t put much importance into the points value, but the fact that Malkin has more primary points than Kucherov even though he was leading Malkin in total pts by 19 says a lot and certainly can be used as an argument for Malkin.

4) Dominance vs peers (points)

Player: Malkin——-Kucherov

Lead over 2nd: 12%———10%
Lead over 5th: 31%———28%
Lead over 10th: 40%———33%
Lead over 20th: 54%———52%

Dominance vs peers (PPG)

Player: Malkin—————Kucherov

Lead over 2nd: 0,245 (20%)——-0,074 (5%)
over 5th: 0,403 (38%)——-0,295 (23%)
over 10th: 0,465 (47%)——-0,354 (29%)
over 20th: 0,514 (55%)——-0,487 (45%)


In terms of dominance vs peers, it’s not close at all. Malkin was in a world of his own during that season. Malkin was also better defensively than Kucherov. He was on top of the league for takeaways in the 2012 season with better defensive stats.

 

[Vex]

Almost as much as Peter Forsberg would.

 

[bobholly39]

Why is Malkin’s season more impressive?

1) Scoring average. Even if you don’t like that argument, it’s still very valuable when discussing which player was better during a given season. The GPG average in 2012 was 2,73 which is the 4th lowest scoring year since the 2005 lockout, the lowest one being 2015-2016 with 2,71. Meanwhile, last season the goal per game average was up at 3,01 which is the 3rd highest since the lockout, the first one being the 2005-2006 season where the GPG average was at 3,08. Want it or not that’s a big difference and it certainly impacted the players point totals.

2) Quality of teammates. In 2012, Malkin played without Sidney Crosby for the majority of the season (Sid played 22 games). His linemates were James Neal, who before that season had a career high of 55 pts and never reached 60 once after he left Malkin. His other winger was an aging Chris Kunitz who had a career high of 60 pts before that season and hadn’t reached 50 pts the 5 years prior to 2012. Letang only played 50 games that season too, so at some point, Malkin was playing without Letang AND Crosby in the lineup and was still dominating. On the other side, Kucherov was playing on the same line as an upcoming star in Brayden Point while playing on one of the best PPs in the league with Stamkos and Norris winner Hedman.

3) Primary points.
Malkin: 96
Kucherov: 95

Malkin has one more primary point while playing in a lower scoring season. I don’t put much importance into the points value, but the fact that Malkin has more primary points than Kucherov even though he was leading Malkin in total pts by 19 says a lot and certainly can be used as an argument for Malkin.

4) Dominance vs peers (points)

Player: Malkin——-Kucherov

Lead over 2nd: 12%———10%
Lead over 5th: 31%———28%
Lead over 10th: 40%———33%
Lead over 20th: 54%———52%

Dominance vs peers (PPG)

Player: Malkin—————Kucherov

Lead over 2nd: 0,245 (20%)——-0,074 (5%)
over 5th: 0,403 (38%)——-0,295 (23%)
over 10th: 0,465 (47%)——-0,354 (29%)
over 20th: 0,514 (55%)——-0,487 (45%)


In terms of dominance vs peers, it’s not close at all. Malkin was in a world of his own during that season. Malkin was also better defensively than Kucherov. He was on top of the league for takeaways in the 2012 season with better defensive stats.

Some good points.

The one thing i'll say though is that - I agree, last year Kucherov's in 2012 doesn't score 128 points. And also - Malkin from 2012 scores more than 112 points last season. The thing I always question though is how much.

Your first point was about scoring averages. If you use this as the method of adjusting - if i'm doing my math right - it would have Kucherov scoring 116 points in 2012, or Malkin 124 points last year, so still advantage Kucherov.

Dominance vs peers isn't completely irrelevant - but a tiny change can really make a big difference. So it bugs me to give too much importance to that.

McDavid had a great season last year. Crosby was injured in 2012. So advantage over 2nd place is already flawed (Crosby could theoretically have been as high as #1 in 2012). I'd argue Ovechkin had a major off year in 2012 - whereas top end talent last season performed very well, with Kane, McDavid and others scoring high. In contrast - 2012 many top end guys were injured or had off years - like Crosby, Ovechkin and Martin St Louis. If all you do is compare scoring vs top scorers in the league - it doesn't account for how much fluctuation can be caused by 3-7 players having good vs bad years. So it's not without faults.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Crosby at 23 is hitting At least 145.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

Some good points.

The one thing i'll say though is that - I agree, last year Kucherov's in 2012 doesn't score 128 points. And also - Malkin from 2012 scores more than 112 points last season. The thing I always question though is how much.

Your first point was about scoring averages. If you use this as the method of adjusting - if i'm doing my math right - it would have Kucherov scoring 116 points in 2012, or Malkin 124 points last year, so still advantage Kucherov.

Dominance vs peers isn't completely irrelevant - but a tiny change can really make a big difference. So it bugs me to give too much importance to that.

McDavid had a great season last year. Crosby was injured in 2012. So advantage over 2nd place is already flawed (Crosby could theoretically have been as high as #1 in 2012). I'd argue Ovechkin had a major off year in 2012 - whereas top end talent last season performed very well, with Kane, McDavid and others scoring high. In contrast - 2012 many top end guys were injured or had off years - like Crosby, Ovechkin and Martin St Louis. If all you do is compare scoring vs top scorers in the league - it doesn't account for how much fluctuation can be caused by 3-7 players having good vs bad years. So it's not without faults.

I mean, every argument has its flaws. Sometimes it’s just a question of perception. Im also curious to see what method do you use to adjust stats of players playing during a different scoring environment.

Also, yes Crosby was injured in 2012, but as for the other guys that had off years, maybe this was due to the fact that it was just harder to score back then? It’s another reason why I think that Stamkos’ 60 goals season is very underrated. I think the fact that the likes of OV, Kane, Sedins, St-Louis and almost every other superstar during that time had an off-season is what makes the seasons of Malkin, Stamkos and Giroux pretty impressive.