How many baseball teams could New York City support?

[IU Hawks fan]

Well, a team in Buffalo could start the season on an extended road trip, with their home opener in mid-May

That would NEVER happen.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Most sports teams now have fanbases that expand beyond their immediate metro area. The Buffalo teams are no exception. Bills and Sabres games are often seen on TV throughout Upstate New York.

And you're counting only the American population of the Buffalo area. It's a lot more when Canadians are taken into account.

Upstate New York has 6,034,873 people. That's millions of potential fans of a Buffalo MLB team. Indeed, a major-league Bisons would heavily market themselves as "Upstate New York's Team".

that's all well and good, but butts in the seats and eyes on the screen come primarily from the immediate area.

to get those 6m people, you're talking about a 200-250 mile circle.

using my prior example, if I drop a circle that big on Providence then their "area" by your definition has 20-30 million people as it would include Boston, NYC, NJ and Philly

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

The Bills and Sabres are nevertheless very popular in the Buffalo area, the Bills have sold out every game as of late for instance (excluding this year due to the pandemic), have made two playoff appearances in the last three years after not appearing since 1999, and are doing well enough this year that another playoff appearance could be in store.

A Buffalo MLB team could also draw fans from Northwest Pennsylvania including Erie, and some parts of the Golden Horseshoe closer to Buffalo than Toronto.

And in my 40-team alignment under the four league structure, Buffalo shares a division with Toronto and would thus host 3 series against each other every year.

 

[IU Hawks fan]

the Bills have sold out every game as of late for instance (excluding this year due to the pandemic), have made two playoff appearances in the last three years after not appearing since 1999, and are doing well enough this year that another playoff appearance could be in store.

Can't compare 8 games with 81.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

And of course my proposed realignment into 4 leagues rekindles several rivalries lost in past realignments, most significantly Phillies-Pirates.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

The Bills and Sabres are nevertheless very popular in the Buffalo area, the Bills have sold out every game as of late for instance (excluding this year due to the pandemic), have made two playoff appearances in the last three years after not appearing since 1999, and are doing well enough this year that another playoff appearance could be in store.

A Buffalo MLB team could also draw fans from Northwest Pennsylvania including Erie, and some parts of the Golden Horseshoe closer to Buffalo than Toronto.

And in my 40-team alignment under the four league structure, Buffalo shares a division with Toronto and would thus host 3 series against each other every year.

hard bottom line is neither the Bills or Sabres make much money, despite any popularity.

Bills - 28th in revenue
Sabres - 28th in revenue

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Well, then all revenue between all the teams in each league needs to be split equally. This would be a real game-changer.

 

[Cynicaps]

Well, then all revenue between all the teams in each league needs to be split equally. This would be a real game-changer.

Wouldn't this punish the teams that care to subsidize teams that don't care and really shouldn't viably exist? Should every sports league have cases like the Panthers and Coyotes in MLB, or the Pelicans and Grizzlies in the NBA?

To revisit your "send a hypothetical Buffalo MLB team on the road for their first 40 games" example, this would be unprecedented and would be a noose on fan support especially if they have a rough start. Case in point: The 2019 Red Sox started their season with 11 games on PDT/MST in as many days (13 if you count their last two Spring Training games in Arizona), came back 3-8, and never really recovered. Buffalo would be that on every performance enhancer known to man.

 

[DaBadGuy7]

The Mets are almost 60 years old and while strong in Queens, Brooklyn, and Long Island their support in Connecticut and upstate NY is soft.

BUT - NY as a TV market would make a third team viable as MSG Network would pay to get summer programming.

That’s the only reason out of MLB or NBA putting a team in Northern NJ (as a Newark resident, I would love another team here) that MLB would have a shot, even if slim at this point. I think if Sternberg had the money and will, he would’ve moved the Rays to NJ in early 2010s based on his NY ties and that rich MSG deal he could’ve gotten. But now, I doubt NJ gets another team anytime unless a owner with Ballmer pockets wants and will pony up expansion/relocation fees as well as paying Yankees/Mets territory fees as well.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Wouldn't this punish the teams that care to subsidize teams that don't care and really shouldn't viably exist? Should every sports league have cases like the Panthers and Coyotes in MLB, or the Pelicans and Grizzlies in the NBA?

To revisit your "send a hypothetical Buffalo MLB team on the road for their first 40 games" example, this would be unprecedented and would be a noose on fan support especially if they have a rough start. Case in point: The 2019 Red Sox started their season with 11 games on PDT/MST in as many days (13 if you count their last two Spring Training games in Arizona), came back 3-8, and never really recovered. Buffalo would be that on every performance enhancer known to man.

Maybe starting on an extended road trip isn't such a good idea after all.

But a retractable roof stadium would help a Buffalo team out very much.

I feel that complete revenue sharing would level the playing field in all the major sports leagues. A level playing field is a good one.

 

[Big Z Man 1990]

Furthermore, the owners of MSG are wealthy enough that they can pay as much as a Buffalo team wants to air the Buffalo team's MLB games.

 

[KevFu]

It's a moot argument. NYC area could probably support 3 to 6 MLB teams just fine, but it won't ever happen because the price is way too prohibitive and the owners won't even want to try.

The last time we got second teams in a market was the Angels/Mets in in the early 60s, and that was a deal between the AL and NL which were totally separate entities, not one league called MLB. MLB is now one actual entity. Much like we talk about Hamilton or GTA2, the issue with adding a team is the territorial fee, plus expansion fee, plus stadium cost makes it so astronomically high that the first owner of the team would have a difficult time making his investment back before they drop dead.

The Mets just sold for $2.4 billion for 90% of the franchise. So let's say someone else wanted a third team in NYC:
$2.4 billion for the franchise
$2.4 billion to the Mets and Yankees EACH for invading the market
$1.2 billion for a stadium.
That's a total bill of $8.4 billion.

An expansion team in Montreal, Nashville, Portland, Vancouver, Charlotte or anywhere else that's outside exclusive territory of an MLB team only costs you "only" $3.5 billion.

 

[golfortennis]

It's a moot argument. NYC area could probably support 3 to 6 MLB teams just fine, but it won't ever happen because the price is way too prohibitive and the owners won't even want to try.

The last time we got second teams in a market was the Angels/Mets in in the early 60s, and that was a deal between the AL and NL which were totally separate entities, not one league called MLB. MLB is now one actual entity. Much like we talk about Hamilton or GTA2, the issue with adding a team is the territorial fee, plus expansion fee, plus stadium cost makes it so astronomically high that the first owner of the team would have a difficult time making his investment back before they drop dead.

The Mets just sold for $2.4 billion for 90% of the franchise. So let's say someone else wanted a third team in NYC:
$2.4 billion for the franchise
$2.4 billion to the Mets and Yankees EACH for invading the market
$1.2 billion for a stadium.
That's a total bill of $8.4 billion.

An expansion team in Montreal, Nashville, Portland, Vancouver, Charlotte or anywhere else that's outside exclusive territory of an MLB team only costs you "only" $3.5 billion.

I'm assuming the answer is no, but does the anti-trust exemption have anything to do with territories and fees? I don't recall hearing the Raiders paying the Rams a fee when they moved to LA, but it has been almost 40 years. I know the lack of anti-trust exemption was why Davis was ultimately able to win.

Reading the book I mentioned in another thread("The Game"), it's funny how Selig wanted to hammer away at the Yankees' revenue advantage, but never once was putting another team or two in the area a consideration. It would have the biggest impact of any move.

 

[KevFu]

I'm assuming the answer is no, but does the anti-trust exemption have anything to do with territories and fees? I don't recall hearing the Raiders paying the Rams a fee when they moved to LA, but it has been almost 40 years. I know the lack of anti-trust exemption was why Davis was ultimately able to win.

Reading the book I mentioned in another thread("The Game"), it's funny how Selig wanted to hammer away at the Yankees' revenue advantage, but never once was putting another team or two in the area a consideration. It would have the biggest impact of any move.

I wasn't following the business of sports back when the Raiders moved.

It's a non-starter for virtually all the leagues because (a) existing owners will band together against it. They don't want anyone invading their markets, AND the owners of teams in markets like Pittsburgh and Cincinnati are going to say "Wait, we're going to let a NEW GUY go to New York City or Los Angeles as a third team?" And (b) again, the FIRST owner of that team is going to pay just an insane amount of money to make it happen, and the person who gets rich being in a massive market like NY is going to be the SECOND owner of the franchise -- the one who doesn't have to pay territorial rights fees and build a venue.

 

[GindyDraws]

Uh... 27.

And 1 in Staten Island.