How many baseball teams could New York City support?

MMC

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This is something I've wondered for awhile, the city obviously supports 2 very easily, and has supported 3 in the past, so I'm curious as to how many baseball teams could actually be supported by the city? Could they support 3 again if they got a third today, or could they even support 4, 5, or more?
 

BKIslandersFan

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This is something I've wondered for awhile, the city obviously supports 2 very easily, and has supported 3 in the past, so I'm curious as to how many baseball teams could actually be supported by the city? Could they support 3 again if they got a third today, or could they even support 4, 5, or more?
I suppose they can support 3, but its not really a good idea. Look at Islanders and Devils.
 

Fenway

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I suppose they can support 3, but its not really a good idea. Look at Islanders and Devils.

MLB is a much easier sell in NY than hockey.

Logically a team in Northern NJ would have the population BUT both the Yankees and Mets have territorial rights to Bergen, Hudson, Essex and Union Counties. That would be VERY expensive for a team to pay.

Jeffery Loria's plan was to move the Expos to the Meadowlands and Selig then hatched contraction involving the Twins and Expos. Loria was going to sue MLB and then the Marlins owner wanted to buy the Red Sox. Selig then allowed John Henry to buy the Red Sox, Loria wound up with the Marlins and MLB took over the Expos.

From a LEGAL standpoint, the old Expos became the Marlins. This is how Loria kept the Expos spring training location and several of the old Expos investors wound up owning a small percentage of the Marlins. The players stayed with their original clubs to keep the MLBPA out of it. The NBA did the same thing in 1978 when the Celtics and Buffalo Braves swapped franchises and Buffalo moved to San Diego.

I doubt NY will ever see a third team now - MLB seems headed to Montreal at some point and Nashville is on their radar as is Portland.
 

BigBadBruins7708

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in a vaccuum, yeah the tri-state area could support 4 or 5 teams.

in reality, any new team in the region is a recipe for disaster. you aren't going to convert enough from the Yankee/Mets fanbases. Those 2 franchises are too established and the fandom crosses generations
 

MMC

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Yeah I'm mostly asking this question in terms of fan support, not so much logistically. The reason I ask is because London currently has 6 Premier League teams, so to me, it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to say NYC would have the fan support required for at least 3 or 4 baseball teams?
 

kaiser matias

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Yeah I'm mostly asking this question in terms of fan support, not so much logistically. The reason I ask is because London currently has 6 Premier League teams, so to me, it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to say NYC would have the fan support required for at least 3 or 4 baseball teams?

I think the difference is that in London there are the football clubs, but not much else. No other sport comes close to competing. New York has 9 teams across 4 sports, and while there is overlap obviously, most people have a favourite over all others.
 

Fenway

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in a vaccuum, yeah the tri-state area could support 4 or 5 teams.

in reality, any new team in the region is a recipe for disaster. you aren't going to convert enough from the Yankee/Mets fanbases. Those 2 franchises are too established and the fandom crosses generations

The Mets are almost 60 years old and while strong in Queens, Brooklyn, and Long Island their support in Connecticut and upstate NY is soft.

BUT - NY as a TV market would make a third team viable as MSG Network would pay to get summer programming.
 

AdmiralsFan24

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I think the difference is that in London there are the football clubs, but not much else. No other sport comes close to competing. New York has 9 teams across 4 sports, and while there is overlap obviously, most people have a favourite over all others.

Let's be honest too, there are 3 teams in London that actually matter, Tottenham, Chelsea and Arsenal. The other teams like Crystal Palace, Fulham, West Ham, QPR are all clubs with smaller fan bases that typically go between relegation and bottom half of the Premier League table. They're still there, just not making any noise and it's not a great comparison with the lack of promotion/relegation in U.S. sports. If they had that system here, it probably would be similar in New York as it is in London.
 

BKIslandersFan

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I think the difference is that in London there are the football clubs, but not much else. No other sport comes close to competing. New York has 9 teams across 4 sports, and while there is overlap obviously, most people have a favourite over all others.
The closest thing to sporting alternative is probably rugby, and its pretty big in parts of the country. But yea, as a whole nothing comes close.
 

kaiser matias

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The closest thing to sporting alternative is probably rugby, and its pretty big in parts of the country. But yea, as a whole nothing comes close.

I nearly mentioned rugby and cricket, as I know the tournaments for those get quite a lot of attention. But I honestly know nothing about club-level rugby (or cricket, or even if that's a thing), so didn't want to include that.
 

kaiser matias

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Let's be honest too, there are 3 teams in London that actually matter, Tottenham, Chelsea and Arsenal. The other teams like Crystal Palace, Fulham, West Ham, QPR are all clubs with smaller fan bases that typically go between relegation and bottom half of the Premier League table. They're still there, just not making any noise and it's not a great comparison with the lack of promotion/relegation in U.S. sports. If they had that system here, it probably would be similar in New York as it is in London.

It really does mirror the New York teams then: the Yankees, Giants and Knicks are all at the top (and possibly the Jets, I guess?) The Islanders, Devils, and Nets are kind of an afterthought, though them all technically falling outside of New York helps that as well.
 

Fenway

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Let's be honest too, there are 3 teams in London that actually matter, Tottenham, Chelsea and Arsenal. The other teams like Crystal Palace, Fulham, West Ham, QPR are all clubs with smaller fan bases that typically go between relegation and bottom half of the Premier League table. They're still there, just not making any noise and it's not a great comparison with the lack of promotion/relegation in U.S. sports. If they had that system here, it probably would be similar in New York as it is in London.

Also in the UK, there is no local coverage on TV like the US - EPL is a kingdom-wide TV deal.

Should the NHL have 3 teams in the NY market? MSG Networks made it possible.

MLB after WWII has 16 teams playing in NYC (3), BOS (2), PHI (2), CHI (2), STL (2) plus CLE, DET, WSH, PIT and CIN.
 

golfortennis

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I doubt NY will ever see a third team now - MLB seems headed to Montreal at some point and Nashville is on their radar as is Portland.

You're probably right about not seeing a team, but if MLB were really serious about revenue discrepancies, it would be the way to go. A third team would instantly reduce the Yankees' TV value. It would take a while for the new franchise to really get themselves established, but taking even a small percentage of the Yankees viewership would decrease the rights fees paid.
 

LeHab

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Yeah I'm mostly asking this question in terms of fan support, not so much logistically. The reason I ask is because London currently has 6 Premier League teams, so to me, it doesn't seem like too much of a stretch to say NYC would have the fan support required for at least 3 or 4 baseball teams?

Keep in mind NYC baseball teams have to compete with all others major leagues in the city for sports dollars. With relegation system very small markets can make it to EPL unlike franchise model of NA.
 

Big Z Man 1990

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While I'd love for Brooklyn to have its own MLB team again, I just don't see it happening.

In fact, when I came up with a four-league alignment for MLB based on baseball history (which in turn was a modified version of another plan floated on this site), the AL and NL would consist of all the cities where they had teams in during the 1957 season (with every market that had at least one team in the 20th century at some point up to that point in the two leagues), with one exception - the second NL team in NYC is replaced with the Miami Marlins, who were a class AAA team in the International League in 1957, because territorial restrictions likely would bar another team from being established in NYC or a market which formerly had two teams but now only has one. If a third team does come to New York state, it will likely be in Buffalo.
 

Fenway

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While I'd love for Brooklyn to have its own MLB team again, I just don't see it happening.

In fact, when I came up with a four-league alignment for MLB based on baseball history (which in turn was a modified version of another plan floated on this site), the AL and NL would consist of all the cities where they had teams in during the 1957 season (with every market that had at least one team in the 20th century at some point up to that point in the two leagues), with one exception - the second NL team in NYC is replaced with the Miami Marlins, who were a class AAA team in the International League in 1957, because territorial restrictions likely would bar another team from being established in NYC or a market which formerly had two teams but now only has one. If a third team does come to New York state, it will likely be in Buffalo.

Buffalo thought it was a lock for NL expansion in 1969 but was blindsided when Montreal came out of nowhere to get the slot.

When it comes to a new stadium we should learn from the past

In 1960 it was part of the Continental League that never played a game but forced MLB to expand. Buffalo is the only Continental League city that never got a team.

Continental League - Wikipedia

In 1993 the Buffalo Bisons owner walked away from the NL expansion process admitting that WNY had lost too much population to be viable.
 

Big Z Man 1990

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Buffalo would likely draw fans from all of upstate New York, as well as some portions of neighboring Pennsylvania which are closer to Buffalo than to Pittsburgh or Philadelphia (like the Erie area). The realignment I proposed would call for each of the four leagues to expand by two teams as early as 2040, with one of the Continental League's expansion teams going to Buffalo, making it the last city in the proposed CL to get a team - the 6th such city in the proposed league to get one in this version of the CL.

Some portions of the Golden Horseshoe closer to Buffalo/Niagara than Toronto could also have a lot of fans of the major-league Bisons.
 

BigBadBruins7708

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Buffalo is not a 3 team market. If you were looking at them today you would barely consider them a 1 team market, nevermind the 2 they currently have.

I mean, if Buffalo is a 3 team market then Providence RI must be a 1-2 team market minimum. It has more population and a strong history of pro teams: P Bruins, Pawsox, Steamrollers (NFL Champs btw), Grays (won first world series), Steam Rollers (NBA team)

CityUrban PopMetro Pop
Buffalo0.935 mill1.13 mill
Providence1.1 mill1.6 mill
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Yes, Providence has strong ties to Boston franchises, but no more so than Buffalo does to the Jays and Yankees
 

Big Z Man 1990

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Most sports teams now have fanbases that expand beyond their immediate metro area. The Buffalo teams are no exception. Bills and Sabres games are often seen on TV throughout Upstate New York.

And you're counting only the American population of the Buffalo area. It's a lot more when Canadians are taken into account.

Upstate New York has 6,034,873 people. That's millions of potential fans of a Buffalo MLB team. Indeed, a major-league Bisons would heavily market themselves as "Upstate New York's Team".
 

Centrum Hockey

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While I'd love for Brooklyn to have its own MLB team again, I just don't see it happening.

In fact, when I came up with a four-league alignment for MLB based on baseball history (which in turn was a modified version of another plan floated on this site), the AL and NL would consist of all the cities where they had teams in during the 1957 season (with every market that had at least one team in the 20th century at some point up to that point in the two leagues), with one exception - the second NL team in NYC is replaced with the Miami Marlins, who were a class AAA team in the International League in 1957, because territorial restrictions likely would bar another team from being established in NYC or a market which formerly had two teams but now only has one. If a third team does come to New York state, it will likely be in Buffalo.
Brooklyn might host a Class AA team starting next year.
 

Big Z Man 1990

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Of course, MLB expanding by 8 teams at once would break the modern-era record for largest non-merger expansion of a major sports league in a single season, surpassing the 6 teams added to the NHL for the 1967-68 season.
 

golfortennis

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Buffalo would likely draw fans from all of upstate New York, as well as some portions of neighboring Pennsylvania which are closer to Buffalo than to Pittsburgh or Philadelphia (like the Erie area). The realignment I proposed would call for each of the four leagues to expand by two teams as early as 2040, with one of the Continental League's expansion teams going to Buffalo, making it the last city in the proposed CL to get a team - the 6th such city in the proposed league to get one in this version of the CL.

Some portions of the Golden Horseshoe closer to Buffalo/Niagara than Toronto could also have a lot of fans of the major-league Bisons.

Well if the border doesn't open....

I'm not sure BUffalo wouldn't be a perpetual KC Royals situation, though, where you are asking people to drive a long way to go to a game, and it is tough to plan with weather issues.

You would need some serious revenue sharing to make a Buffalo club viable, IMHO.
 

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