How long will SKA domination last?

[hansomreiste]

With its good and bad sides, I loved KHL overall. A lot. Since its inception. For the first time, though, I feel like this may be the end of the road for at least a couple of years when it comes to "Who will win the Gagarin cup?" hype. As if the fact that they're ridiculously superior already was not enough, they keep snatching players here and there, last target being my (and of course, jaco's!) lovely Amur and Artyom Zub.

What are your thoughts on this subject? Football fans will know what I am afraid of. Take Ludogorets, BATE Borisov, Olympiakos or Dynamo Zagreb. Is this how SKA will look in 5 years? Doesn't matter how competitive the league is, there is only one champion all the time with following teams lagging behind?

While I'm a big fan of hockey, I have to admit that I know very little about how transfer system works in this specific sport - so I am not the person to judge KHL's salary cap or general transaction policy but I feel like something stinks about this. Am I being too dramatic & paranoid or is this really getting out of control? Yeah, last year was a nice surprise by MMG but it won't last forever. If clubs are free to spend as much as they want, no team from Urals & Siberia will be able to keep up and teams like MMG, Traktor, Avangard etc. will suffer heavily and eventually run out of gas. It's not only about money. Not many players would choose living in Omsk when they can pick Helsinki, St. Petersburg or Moscow. Unless there are minimum/maximum limits as to how clubs can behave, I afraid this league will turn into a real bush league which serves as a punching bag for SKA and just maybe CSKA. Places like Yekaterinburg or Omsk can never compete with Western Russia when it comes to an open-ended race, let's face it. From economy to demographics, many factors favour the west. And I am a person who values Siberia probably even more than Siberians; not someone "AHA, SIBERIA? SO THE PLACE WITH POLAR BEARS AND FORESTS AND SOME WEIRD ALIEN STUFF?" so I know how huge the potential in Siberia is. However, it's still not enough if we're to speak of competing with the likes of St. Petersburg or Moscow. No.

As I said, I'm not familiar with financial side of the story so I don't want to go like, "We are all doomed!" and therefore I am willing to hear what other people who are presumably more well-informed than me on this matter have to say before going crazy over the issue.

Click to read more...

 

[vorky]

KHL has reduced salary cap from 1,1B rubles (14/15) to 900M rubles (17/18). The league has luxury tax for clubs who spend over salary cap (20%). There is no salary floor (was under Medvedev).

The league considers reducing salary cap after 17/18, but KHL can not reduce salary cap too much because the league would become less interesting for players.

Clubs have to work on bussiness to have more income and be able to sign better players. Everyobody criticise SKA but they are able to earn 1B rubles per season.

The cancer of world hockey is a fact that the NHL does not respect contracts of euro players with their euro clubs. I have written a lot about it here. NHL respects only KHL contracts (see Sobotka). There is transfer agreement among NHL and euro leagues/federations. NHL pays only 200-300k USD per player. For example SKA paid 60M rubles (800k USD) for Zub. NHL pays less money for much better prospects.

PS: You know how football transfers work, wealthy clubs buy players from poor clubs. Look at La Liga - only two or three best clubs and who has problem with it? The same here in KHL. Transfer fee is nice addition to lets say Amur´s budget.

EDIT
according to RSport Amur gets 150M rubles (cca 2,3M USD) and one SKA player

 

[VoluntaryDom]

Until Gusev comes over to the Lightning.

 

[SoundAndFury]

As long as they keep pumping money into the team like this it will. So for the foreseeable future, I guess. Good thing is "foreseeable future" isn't a very long term in the KHL.

How the transfers work in the KHL is ridiculous for a long time (since RSL days, frankly) but there is little other choice in the league where rich is really rich and poor is really poor. Where one team can say "so you are bankrupt ay, no worries, we will just take over your entire roster, it's all good".

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

As long as they keep pumping money into the team like this it will. So for the foreseeable future, I guess. Good thing is "foreseeable future" isn't a very long term in the KHL.

How the transfers work in the KHL is ridiculous for a long time (since RSL days, frankly) but there is little other choice in the league where rich is really rich and poor is really poor. Where one team can say "so you are bankrupt ay, no worries, we will just take over your entire roster, it's all good".

Well, what does Barcelona and Real Madrid do, for example? It's just the same.
The only thing, IMHO, is that there should be a harder limit on players who can be on a roster, too many loopholes to get a lot of players not counting towards the 25-men limit...

 

[SoundAndFury]

Well, what does Barcelona and Real Madrid do, for example? It's just the same.

Even they can't send players back and forth as easily as Loko/Ak Bars did with Cherepanov this year, for example.

Overall, analogy is pretty good however but it doesn't mean the thing itself is good or should be this way. La Liga had a system which pumped money to Real and Barca for years and made rich richer and poor poorer, it's by no means a good thing.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

Even they can't send players back and forth as easily as Loko/Ak Bars did with Cherepanov this year, for example.

Overall, analogy is pretty good however but it doesn't mean the thing itself is good or should be this way. La Liga had a system which pumped money to Real and Barca for years and made rich richer and poor poorer, it's by no means a good thing.

I haven't said that it's good. I think that the solution would be to limit young players number, that's all. I understand that it can be still loopholed sending players to Vladivostok or so, but at least other teams would get (good) players, and those players would not sit on the bench

 

[hansomreiste]

Even they can't send players back and forth as easily as Loko/Ak Bars did with Cherepanov this year, for example.

Overall, analogy is pretty good however but it doesn't mean the thing itself is good or should be this way. La Liga had a system which pumped money to Real and Barca for years and made rich richer and poor poorer, it's by no means a good thing.

This. There is a reason I speak nothing other than hockey as a guy from a country where football is worshipped and ice hockey is just taking baby steps which will probably never materialize into something worth speaking of. Current corrupt and unfair state of European football is not a tool to justify SKA's actions. Sure, hockey itself is different than football and nobody just switches favorite sports because of corruption or a bunch of dominant teams but anyways, the equality is always important.

Moreover, it's not even that one-sided in top European leagues. There is a level of parity in international competitions. Or, you can never be sure that Real or Barca will storm the league; Villarreal, Sevilla, Atletico or any other team can always tackle them and therefore make championship race more interesting. In KHL, we do not have this. In play-off, what your opponents do is totally irrelevant. 7-games series make it nearly impossible to have a surprise winner (make no mistake, I'm a big fan of 7-game series) nor have we international competitions.

I mean, there should be rules and a minimum/maximum amount of money the team can use. Amur is happy for 800K it receives from SKA because they are broke. This is the problem in first place. When there is no equality, some teams will take advantage of others just like that and render them even more uncompetitive while solidifying their position as the invincibles.

Just implement a rule like, "The maximum you can spend for contracts is 7M USD yearly and the maximum you can spend for transfers & transactions with other clubs is 1M USD" and let it go. This way, poorer teams can still get decent amount of money without being pillaged.

I'm also closely interested in Russian Premier League, which is actually fantastic for a very corrupt country. Yes there are a lot of scandals but when you look at it, many teams can actually compete for something. Rostov, Spartak, Krasnodar and even Terek or Anzhi to some degree. They have legit squads that can fight. We are just running out of "elite" teams in KHL - one or two remain at the top and the rest is lagging behind. Don't tell me you think Loko, Torpedo, Avangard or Ak Bars can win a cup against this SKA.

Anyway, I will try comforting myself with the fact that "foreseeable future" is not a long time in KHL as SoundAndFury put it. Normally, I hate NHL pillaging European players but I hope they'll do it for SKA. Give them a taste of their own medicine.

On an unrelated side note, I don't want to die before seeing Avangard and Sibir got a cup each. Unlucky me.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

Moreover, it's not even that one-sided in top European leagues. There is a level of parity in international competitions. Or, you can never be sure that Real or Barca will storm the league; Villarreal, Sevilla, Atletico or any other team can always tackle them and therefore make championship race more interesting. In KHL, we do not have this. In play-off, what your opponents do is totally irrelevant. 7-games series make it nearly impossible to have a surprise winner (make no mistake, I'm a big fan of 7-game series)

SKA has won a grand total of 1 gagarin cup

I mean, there should be rules and a minimum/maximum amount of money the team can use. Amur is happy for 800K it receives from SKA because they are broke. This is the problem in first place. When there is no equality, some teams will take advantage of others just like that and render them even more uncompetitive while solidifying their position as the invincibles.

Money transfers should be abolished.

Don't tell me you think Loko, Torpedo, Avangard or Ak Bars can win a cup against this SKA.

Again: how many cups SKA has?

Anyway, I will try comforting myself with the fact that "foreseeable future" is not a long time in KHL as SoundAndFury put it. Normally, I hate NHL pillaging European players but I hope they'll do it for SKA. Give them a taste of their own medicine.

Well, at least SKA pays well.

 

[hansomreiste]

In summer in 2011, Ludogorets Razgrad was only celebrating promotion to the highest tier of Bulgarian football. Today, just after less than six years, they have seven cups in total: five times league champions and two times Bulgarian cup winners. No need to mention that they occasionally make it to Champions League group stage.

Of course, the fact that SKA only has one cup doesn't mean they will get another 10 in next 10 years but at the same time, it doesn't mean they won't either. And the way things are going, it's more likely for them to punch everyone on their way to Gagarin Cup for multiple times.

The problem here is not SKA's success. I mean, if Avangard or MMG got three or four consecutive Gagarin cups with these rosters they have, I wouldn't mind it. Because it would not be an unfair competition where they beat their opponents not only on but also off ice. However, as an Avangard fan, I wouldn't stand a single cup won the way SKA have been going so far: unlimited supply of cash and "we do whatever we want" mentality. It's like playing the game with cheats. The problem is inequality and loss of parity, which is not really difficult to fix once you want.

Maybe in five years, "big bosses" will have enough of it and after a couple of silverware, they'll stop pumping SKA and maybe find themselves a new toy. This is the problem we need to solve: people or groups shouldn't be allowed to be so influential on hockey clubs. Basically, politics & non-sport-related ambitions out. Or, if KHL will be a race ground for rich men to compete their toys, at least make it equal for other teams as well.

I'm not asking for a 30-team play-off where every single team fights for championship. There is no such league. Everytime, there will be strong contenders, or maybe only one, and some that could follow. But the way KHL is going now... Soon, all opposition to SKA will have been eradicated if things go like that. I always favour KHL over NHL but when it comes to parity, this league is way way behind NHL. And for parity, you don't need much... Just some regulations and reliable bodies to enforce them. I mean, I know it would be extremely unrealistic for Neftekhimik to build a 20K arena and fill it regularly, but keeping things equal? Not so unrealistic, as long as KHL itself wants it.

TL;DR My problem is inequality and loss of competitiveness in KHL, not any team in particular or how many cups they win.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

In summer in 2011, Ludogorets Razgrad was only celebrating promotion to the highest tier of Bulgarian football. Today, just after less than six years, they have seven cups in total: five times league champions and two times Bulgarian cup winners. No need to mention that they occasionally make it to Champions League group stage.

Of course, the fact that SKA only has one cup doesn't mean they will get another 10 in next 10 years but at the same time, it doesn't mean they won't either. And the way things are going, it's more likely for them to punch everyone on their way to Gagarin Cup for multiple times.

The problem here is not SKA's success. I mean, if Avangard or MMG got three or four consecutive Gagarin cups with these rosters they have, I wouldn't mind it. Because it would not be an unfair competition where they beat their opponents not only on but also off ice. However, as an Avangard fan, I wouldn't stand a single cup won the way SKA have been going so far: unlimited supply of cash and "we do whatever we want" mentality. It's like playing the game with cheats. The problem is inequality and loss of parity, which is not really difficult to fix once you want.

Maybe in five years, "big bosses" will have enough of it and after a couple of silverware, they'll stop pumping SKA and maybe find themselves a new toy. This is the problem we need to solve: people or groups shouldn't be allowed to be so influential on hockey clubs. Basically, politics & non-sport-related ambitions out. Or, if KHL will be a race ground for rich men to compete their toys, at least make it equal for other teams as well.

I'm not asking for a 30-team play-off where every single team fights for championship. There is no such league. Everytime, there will be strong contenders, or maybe only one, and some that could follow. But the way KHL is going now... Soon, all opposition to SKA will have been eradicated if things go like that. I always favour KHL over NHL but when it comes to parity, this league is way way behind NHL. And for parity, you don't need much... Just some regulations and reliable bodies to enforce them. I mean, I know it would be extremely unrealistic for Neftekhimik to build a 20K arena and fill it regularly, but keeping things equal? Not so unrealistic, as long as KHL itself wants it.

TL;DR My problem is inequality and loss of competitiveness in KHL, not any team in particular or how many cups they win.

I think that the only reasonable thing to do here is to get to a stronger roster limit. I think that the problem doesn't lie in the fact that SKA has money or that they have a lot of good players (Metallurg Mg has less? Ak Bars? I'd say that SKA's players more or less have only - in average - a bolder name), the problem is that SKA and CSKA have too many players at their disposal.

 

[malkinfan]

I dont know how the salary cap works but teams that go over should have to pay a hefty tax, say 50% which would go directly to the bottom teams. At the very least if these guys can and want to spend big money, fine but lets use some of the excess to prop up the bottom of the league.

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

I dont know how the salary cap works but teams that go over should have to pay a hefty tax, say 50% which would go directly to the bottom teams. At the very least if these guys can and want to spend big money, fine but lets use some of the excess to prop up the bottom of the league.

That would be a good idea too

 

[Milos Krasic]

I'm also closely interested in Russian Premier League, which is actually fantastic for a very corrupt country. Yes there are a lot of scandals but when you look at it, many teams can actually compete for something. Rostov, Spartak, Krasnodar and even Terek or Anzhi to some degree. They have legit squads that can fight. We are just running out of "elite" teams in KHL - one or two remain at the top and the rest is lagging behind. Don't tell me you think Loko, Torpedo, Avangard or Ak Bars can win a cup against this SKA.

Avangard, Loko, etc. are certainly > compared to Terek and Anzhi. Spartak is a traditional football power, much more than their hockey brand. Rostov basically benefitted from the mismanagement of Rubin Kazan, though I agree with your overall point on some level.

 

[alko]

Now im curious, how it all began? SKA and CSKA. Who is behind this?

 

[Atas2000]

To answer the thread title: playoffs. Their D is suspect.

 

[hansomreiste]

To answer the thread title: playoffs. Their D is suspect.

But their offense is so good that at this point, in a 7-game series, I think they could win even with an empty net. It's not like SKA is winning games only because of a powerful offense that will sooner or later slow down - like Dallas Stars of last season. They were beasts when it comes to offense but had very poor defending. SKA, though, is playing at another level for KHL. Their offense can consistently produce huge amounts of goals. All their lines are capable of destroying a potential play-off opponent, maybe only aside from CSKA or Magnitka, whom I believe SKA will beat anyways, probably losing two games and not more. As always, I'll watch Eastern games in play-off. There is no surprise in West at all and if it happens, it happens in conference finals.

Now im curious, how it all began? SKA and CSKA. Who is behind this?

Pretty much everything in Russia is toys for oligarchs. Obviously, SKA and CSKA are very important teams both because of their traditions, fans and the fact that they are from the two biggest and most important cities in Russia. So the investment they get and "ambitious rich guys" they are supported by differ significantly from the others. I mean, if I was a billionaire, I'd buy (not sure if this is correct term) Avangard and then put a team in Krasnoyarsk as well and just make another SKA out of them. With money, you can do this since nobody gives a ***** about regulations in KHL.

So basically, it's that rich men care more about SKA and this is quite understandable. They have fans, reputation, environment to grow etc... If you had the chance, would you invest in Khanty-Mansiysk or St. Petersburg to create a "winner" team making headlines everywhere? Owning a club is actually more than success on ice/field. There is a huge difference between, "Hi, I am alko. I have 55 million USD net worth" and "Hi, I am alko, the owner of SKA. I have 5 million USD net worth" when it comes to making business. Owning or investing in in a sports club is a way to make a name. It gives you reputation. So the rich people of western Russia, naturally, go for SKA or CSKA. Also keep in mind that Rosneft and Gazprom are very supportive of SKA/Zenit and CSKA. I mean, if Rosneft was my sponsor, I could singlehandedly be a KHL team. The money and power they have is not even comparable to what most others have. Yeah, it's not like Avangard are run by a bunch of clowns (actually, if I'm not mistaken, Gazprom also sponsors us) but still the options and investment CSKA & SKA can get is off the charts.

Personally, I'd love to see a powerhouse in a bigger, more populous & significant Siberian city than Magnitogorsk. Maybe some miracle man like Kolesnykov will come up and bring Gagarin Cups to Omsk, Novosibirsk, Vladivostok or Khabarovsk.

 

[forp]

To answer the thread title: playoffs. Their D is suspect.

watched the SKA vs KRS game, had the same feeling. KRS had quite some opportunities front of the net, not that the KRS generated most of them, but the SKA presented them either due to turnovers or something. While in regular season, these turnovers are not that fatal like how KRS failed to generate goals off them, it could be deadly in playoffs.

Given the performance that night, I was actually wondering how they had so few GA so far, was it because their lines gave too much pressure offensively or their goalies were simply unbeatable? or it was because they traveled too far to play the KRS and underperformed that night?

 

[SoundAndFury]

Given the performance that night, I was actually wondering how they had so few GA so far, was it because their lines gave too much pressure offensively or their goalies were simply unbeatable? or it was because they traveled too far to play the KRS and underperformed that night?

Exactly. They were playing 7 hours away from their time zone for a week, how do you think people feel under those circumstances?

 

[alko]

Pretty much everything in Russia is toys for oligarchs. Obviously, SKA and CSKA are very important teams both because of their traditions, fans and the fact that they are from the two biggest and most important cities in Russia. So the investment they get and "ambitious rich guys" they are supported by differ significantly from the others. I mean, if I was a billionaire, I'd buy (not sure if this is correct term) Avangard and then put a team in Krasnoyarsk as well and just make another SKA out of them. With money, you can do this since nobody gives a ***** about regulations in KHL.

So basically, it's that rich men care more about SKA and this is quite understandable. They have fans, reputation, environment to grow etc... If you had the chance, would you invest in Khanty-Mansiysk or St. Petersburg to create a "winner" team making headlines everywhere? Owning a club is actually more than success on ice/field. There is a huge difference between, "Hi, I am alko. I have 55 million USD net worth" and "Hi, I am alko, the owner of SKA. I have 5 million USD net worth" when it comes to making business. Owning or investing in in a sports club is a way to make a name. It gives you reputation. So the rich people of western Russia, naturally, go for SKA or CSKA. Also keep in mind that Rosneft and Gazprom are very supportive of SKA/Zenit and CSKA. I mean, if Rosneft was my sponsor, I could singlehandedly be a KHL team. The money and power they have is not even comparable to what most others have. Yeah, it's not like Avangard are run by a bunch of clowns (actually, if I'm not mistaken, Gazprom also sponsors us) but still the options and investment CSKA & SKA can get is off the charts.

Personally, I'd love to see a powerhouse in a bigger, more populous & significant Siberian city than Magnitogorsk. Maybe some miracle man like Kolesnykov will come up and bring Gagarin Cups to Omsk, Novosibirsk, Vladivostok or Khabarovsk.

That means, that one very rich company (Gazprom, Rosnef ...) are behind more than 1 KHL teams?

 

[Alessandro Seren Rosso]

That means, that one very rich company (Gazprom, Rosnef ...) are behind more than 1 KHL teams?

Yeah. Gazprom alone could finance the whole KHL (actually Fetisov proposed it a few years ago)

 

[alko]

Yeah. Gazprom alone could finance the whole KHL (actually Fetisov proposed it a few years ago)

Then the solution for Slovan Bratislava is very easy. Gazprom should buy it.

 

[Rigafan]

But their offense is so good that at this point, in a 7-game series, I think they could win even with an empty net. It's not like SKA is winning games only because of a powerful offense that will sooner or later slow down - like Dallas Stars of last season. They were beasts when it comes to offense but had very poor defending. SKA, though, is playing at another level for KHL. Their offense can consistently produce huge amounts of goals. All their lines are capable of destroying a potential play-off opponent, maybe only aside from CSKA or Magnitka, whom I believe SKA will beat anyways, probably losing two games and not more. As always, I'll watch Eastern games in play-off. There is no surprise in West at all and if it happens, it happens in conference finals.




Pretty much everything in Russia is toys for oligarchs. Obviously, SKA and CSKA are very important teams both because of their traditions, fans and the fact that they are from the two biggest and most important cities in Russia. So the investment they get and "ambitious rich guys" they are supported by differ significantly from the others. I mean, if I was a billionaire, I'd buy (not sure if this is correct term) Avangard and then put a team in Krasnoyarsk as well and just make another SKA out of them. With money, you can do this since nobody gives a ***** about regulations in KHL.

So basically, it's that rich men care more about SKA and this is quite understandable. They have fans, reputation, environment to grow etc... If you had the chance, would you invest in Khanty-Mansiysk or St. Petersburg to create a "winner" team making headlines everywhere? Owning a club is actually more than success on ice/field. There is a huge difference between, "Hi, I am alko. I have 55 million USD net worth" and "Hi, I am alko, the owner of SKA. I have 5 million USD net worth" when it comes to making business. Owning or investing in in a sports club is a way to make a name. It gives you reputation. So the rich people of western Russia, naturally, go for SKA or CSKA. Also keep in mind that Rosneft and Gazprom are very supportive of SKA/Zenit and CSKA. I mean, if Rosneft was my sponsor, I could singlehandedly be a KHL team. The money and power they have is not even comparable to what most others have. Yeah, it's not like Avangard are run by a bunch of clowns (actually, if I'm not mistaken, Gazprom also sponsors us) but still the options and investment CSKA & SKA can get is off the charts.

Personally, I'd love to see a powerhouse in a bigger, more populous & significant Siberian city than Magnitogorsk. Maybe some miracle man like Kolesnykov will come up and bring Gagarin Cups to Omsk, Novosibirsk, Vladivostok or Khabarovsk.

hansomreiste - I like the topics you bring up, you are obviously very passionate about hockey and the KHL which is very nice to see

I think you are thinking to deep into this SKA situation though? It doesn't matter who's funding the teams really, sure SKA will always have an unlimited stream of cash, however they are one of the few teams that actually put an effort in to establish their brand, get their name out, get people in the arena, put on a nice show in the arena ect this is why, I believe, the league told teams to look to them to better improve their marketing!

With the dominance, its the guys on the ice not the ones in the boardroom that make results. Look back in.. 2010 or so. Dinamo Riga were a serious team! We usually have a budget around €8-11m and we competed with the big teams. Yes its all falling apart now but that is to bad management and VERY bad recruiting, also a reliance on using 99% Latvian players

Its the guys on the ice that have to put in the effort to beat teams like SKA. There are always teams like SKA. Growing up for me it was AK Bars, they were THE Russian team, everybody knew they and knew they were good. Then Magnitka had their day. I'd highly suggest, if you haven't already, to read

https://www.amazon.com/King-Russia-Russian-Super-League/dp/0771095708

In 2005 Metallurg under Dave King lost only 4 games, In 1998 they only lost 2 games! You see each team has it's day.

I do agree the KHL needs its regulations, but it's only born in 2008!

 

[SoundAndFury]

With the dominance, its the guys on the ice not the ones in the boardroom that make results. Look back in.. 2010 or so. Dinamo Riga were a serious team! We usually have a budget around €8-11m and we competed with the big teams. Yes its all falling apart now but that is to bad management and VERY bad recruiting, also a reliance on using 99% Latvian players

Well recruiting is bad because the budget dropped massively. When MOL league goalie is your starter you know things are bad with the money. Also Dinamo is using pretty much as many foreigners as they used to, the problem is that good Latvian players are going away instead of staying which has already been talked about.

 

[Rigafan]

Well recruiting is bad because the budget dropped massively. When MOL league goalie is your starter you know things are bad with the money. Also Dinamo is using pretty much as many foreigners as they used to, the problem is that good Latvian players are going away instead of staying which has already been talked about.

Yes, very true! Local players usually costs more as well though, So mixing up the nationalities might help but I don't see it ever happening.