How High can Crosby reach in all-time Centers Ranking?

[daver]

So then you would take Malkin's Conn Smythe away and give it to Crosby? He was a better two-way player, a better leader and more disciplined.

He was an undisputed leader at the 2008 WHC, bringing Russia its first gold in 15 years.

Noticed you didn't respond to my post. Any response?

 

[Sentinel]

Noticed you didn't respond to my post. Any response?

I thought Malkin was plenty defensively responsible in his first years in Pittsburgh. Although I do remember Coach Bykov complaining about him "being turned into a more one-dimensional player in the NHL." As far as his leadership: 2012 WHC is all you need to know. I've never seen Crosby display that kind of leadership.

How exactly was Crosby "a better two-way player" in 09? In fact, I vaguely remember him not contributing much when he wasn't scoring (in the Finals, for example).

 

[MXD]

I thought Malkin was plenty defensively responsible in his first years in Pittsburgh. Although I do remember Coach Bykov complaining about him "being turned into a more one-dimensional player in the NHL." As far as his leadership: 2012 WHC is all you need to know. I've never seen Crosby display that kind of leadership.

How exactly was Crosby "a better two-way player" in 09? In fact, I vaguely remember him not contributing much when he wasn't scoring (in the Finals, for example).

Looking at usage charts are pretty revealing.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I thought Malkin was plenty defensively responsible in his first years in Pittsburgh. Although I do remember Coach Bykov complaining about him "being turned into a more one-dimensional player in the NHL." As far as his leadership: 2012 WHC is all you need to know. I've never seen Crosby display that kind of leadership.

How exactly was Crosby "a better two-way player" in 09? In fact, I vaguely remember him not contributing much when he wasn't scoring (in the Finals, for example).

Crosby was a noticably better two-way player than Malkin in 2009 and was given tougher defensive assignments, as well. Crosby's emergence as a strong two-way player around that time was given quite a bit of media attention. (He seems to have regressed since, though).

Looking at usage charts are pretty revealing.

Yes.

 

[daver]

I thought Malkin was plenty defensively responsible in his first years in Pittsburgh. Although I do remember Coach Bykov complaining about him "being turned into a more one-dimensional player in the NHL." As far as his leadership: 2012 WHC is all you need to know. I've never seen Crosby display that kind of leadership.

How exactly was Crosby "a better two-way player" in 09? In fact, I vaguely remember him not contributing much when he wasn't scoring (in the Finals, for example).

Aside from vague memories, the stats show Crosby was better in faceoffs and took 35 less in penalty minutes and is generally regarded as being the better 2-way player than Malkin (the same way Trottier and Clarke are regarded as being better 2-way players than Crosby).

So since 2-way is so important, you must feel that Crosby deserved the Conn Smythe right?

 

[Sentinel]

Aside from vague memories, the stats show Crosby was better in faceoffs and took 35 less in penalty minutes and is generally regarded as being the better 2-way player than Malkin (the same way Trottier and Clarke are regarded as being better 2-way players than Crosby).

So since 2-way is so important, you must feel that Crosby deserved the Conn Smythe right?

What are you talking about? Crosby played against Zetterberg head-to-head in those finals.
Crosby: 7GP 1G 2A 3P -3
Zett: 7GP 2G 4A 6P +3
Where is Crosby's two-way play? Two-way suckage is more like it.

 

[Hardyvan123]

What are you talking about? Crosby played against Zetterberg head-to-head in those finals.
Crosby: 7GP 1G 2A 3P -3
Zett: 7GP 2G 4A 6P +3
Where is Crosby's two-way play? Two-way suckage is more like it.

You are missing a major point here , the wings focused on shutting down Crosby more than Malkin, surely that is telling eh?

no one is making any credible argument that Malkin is even on par with Sid in their 2 way game for their careers, it's not bobby Clarke to Phil Espositio difference but it is a clear difference.

 

[Rhiessan71]

You are missing a major point here , the wings focused on shutting down Crosby more than Malkin, surely that is telling eh?

no one is making any credible argument that Malkin is even on par with Sid in their 2 way game for their careers, it's not bobby Clarke to Phil Espositio difference but it is a clear difference.

Crosby defensively to OV is noticeable, Crosby to Malkin is not so much.
Malkin is closer to Crosby than Crosby is to Dats, Toews, Bergeron or even Plekanec.
Crosby is a solid 2-way player, no more, no less. Malkin is not that far behind him and his lapses tend to surface more on inconsistent back checking.
And its not like Crosby doesn't have his own lapses like the other night vs the Stars when he let his center go off a draw, had to take a penalty and cost the Pens the game.
Crosby gets more defensive zone starts to Malkin simply because he's a better faceoff guy not because he's miles ahead of him defensively.

 

[Offtheboard412]

Been reading this since it started agree with a lot of the "pro-crosby" posts but when it comes to defense imo there is little difference and in fact I think when Malkin is at the top of his game he is much more of a difference maker defensively than Crosby.
I think Sid is better positionally and is a bit more responsible with the puck in dangerous areas of the ice but his stick work is kinda weak. Its not terrible in the sense that he generally has proper positioning to cover passing lanes but he just doesnt seem to ever really hound the puck carrier and make it difficult for them.
Malkin on the other hand is almost the exact opposite when he really commits to it he is a huge force defensively using his reach to steal a lot of pucks and is great at knowing when to pressure the puck carrier. Its a more risky style but when it works he can impact games in a huge way. Good example would be game 4 against the red wings, before Staal's shorthanded goal Malkin made a great play to pressure the d-man at the blue line and forced a turnover which lead to a good scoring chance. Later in that period he made an almost identical play that lead to Crosby's goal. He can really be a force defensively when he wants to be he just doesn't bring it all the time which evens out the comparison in the long run.

 

[daver]

He can really be a force defensively when he wants to be he just doesn't bring it all the time which evens out the comparison in the long run.

This sounds like his offensive game. When he wants to be, he is better than Crosby.
Why isn't choosing to be a force all the time?

The simple fact he isn't most of the time and don't mistake flash for superior skills. Crosby's ability to consistently come away with pucks from the boards outweighs the occasional flashy play by Malkin.

Ask the Pens board who is better and more responsible.

 

[daver]

What are you talking about? Crosby played against Zetterberg head-to-head in those finals.
Crosby: 7GP 1G 2A 3P -3
Zett: 7GP 2G 4A 6P +3
Where is Crosby's two-way play? Two-way suckage is more like it.

I'll take your use of emoticans as an inication you don't have any else to offer to back up your views.

It's clear that two-way play is only relevant when it is applied against Crosby.

 

[daver]

Crosby defensively to OV is noticeable, Crosby to Malkin is not so much.
Malkin is closer to Crosby than Crosby is to Dats, Toews, Bergeron or even Plekanec.
Crosby is a solid 2-way player, no more, no less. Malkin is not that far behind him and his lapses tend to surface more on inconsistent back checking.
And its not like Crosby doesn't have his own lapses like the other night vs the Stars when he let his center go off a draw, had to take a penalty and cost the Pens the game.
Crosby gets more defensive zone starts to Malkin simply because he's a better faceoff guy not because he's miles ahead of him defensively.

Agree to a certain extent.

What do you think of the other poster's original POV which got us down this road that Crosby's 2008 and 2009 playoff runs weren't Conn Smythe worthy.

 

[Offtheboard412]

This sounds like his offensive game. When he wants to be, he is better than Crosby.
Why isn't choosing to be a force all the time?

The simple fact he isn't most of the time and don't mistake flash for superior skills. Crosby's ability to consistently come away with pucks from the boards outweighs the occasional flashy play by Malkin.

Ask the Pens board who is better and more responsible.

I'm a pens fan, I get to see almost every game and that's what i base it off. I do read the Pens board fairly often and outside of a few posters most never make a mention of any mistake he makes, which is understandable because the good far outweighs the bad. But i do see Crosby do a lot of circling and skate byes in his own zone. He does a good job of staying down low and not getting ahead of the play looking to head up ice but he has a tendency to get caught puck watching and loses track of his man at times.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I thought Malkin was plenty defensively responsible in his first years in Pittsburgh. Although I do remember Coach Bykov complaining about him "being turned into a more one-dimensional player in the NHL." As far as his leadership: 2012 WHC is all you need to know. I've never seen Crosby display that kind of leadership.

How exactly was Crosby "a better two-way player" in 09? In fact, I vaguely remember him not contributing much when he wasn't scoring (in the Finals, for example).

why did the comparison stop in 2009 though?

Here is the scoring for Pens forwards from the 10 season until now.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

Notice how sid has more points in less GP than Malkin?

Throw in the fact that starting in the 10 season , and still continuing this season, Malkin has had the more favorable offensive zone starts, and is worse on faceoffs as well.

No matter how one slices it Sid has been better, and by quite a bit than Malkin during their overlapping careers.

Sure Malkin, when he is on the top of his game , can be nearly as good or the equal of Sid, but consistency matters right?

For the record I saw Malkin play live at the WJHC in Vancouver and was extremely impressed with him and saw him as a more complete version of Mario but sadly he has the Mario tendency to sometimes just be a scorer and ignore other parts of the game and at least Mario was extremely consistent in his scoring.

Also sure Malkin was impressive at the WHC in 12 but so was Sid in the only season he went to the WHC in 06 as an 18 year old player.

One might like Malkins skill set or whatever but any argument that his career or his career value is as high as Sid's is right now simply doesn't hold water.

 

[Big Phil]

Just looking at their Selke finishes, here they are, this is how the voters thought:

Malkin - 46th (2009)
Crosby - 30th (2010), 15th (2013), 18th (2014)

Neither player has come anywhere near winning it. The Selke votes can be a little bit of a crapshoot after 10th or so. Is it really all that significant that you finished 10th or 20th in Selke voting? It isn't like the Hart. You could still have a fantastic season despite finishing 10th in Hart voting. 10th in Selke voting probably means the odd writer thinks you're good defensively (enough) and gave you a vote here and there.

Here is Gretzky with the Selke:

Gretzky - 24th, 25th, 26th

Mario finished 17th for the Selke in 1997

So really, is there a difference with these stars? They all had what amounts to pretty useless finishes in the Selke voting. People recognized that they COULD be responsible defensively and I think that's where it ends. Crosby is responsible defensively, not great. I think he gets more marks for faceoffs and such.

Messier is a guy who is recognized a lot more than any of these guys as being great defensively:

Selke voting for Messier: 8, 9, 14, 15, 16, 16, 17, 28

There's a player I would say is a lot better two-way player and is recognized as such.

And Messier still didn't even get the same recognition as the likes of Clarke, Trottier, Fedorov, Datsyuk, etc. Trottier finished as high as 2nd. Fedorov won it twice. Datsyuk three times. Clarke had high finishes and won it once yet the award didn't exist for half of his career and missed a few years of Trottier's as well. Guys like that are all over the map when it comes to the Selke, they are among the first players the voters think of, Crosby isn't. It doesn't mean he isn't good defensively, it just means he isn't irresponsible. Either way he still trumps someone like Zetterberg or Datsyuk as a better player. But I don't know if his defense is that much better than just what you expect a normal superstars to be.

Toews and Bergeron you use their defensive play as more of a plus in their favour. It is a bigger part of their game. Kovalchuk and Ovechkin you would actually use it against them. Crosby is neither of those options, he's just what I would call "responsible" defensively. Nothing wrong with that, but not a Selke threat either.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Agree to a certain extent.

What do you think of the other poster's original POV which got us down this road that Crosby's 2008 and 2009 playoff runs weren't Conn Smythe worthy.

Either of them could've been Conn worthy...IF his Finals were better.
If he could have even been equal to Zetts in 08 but Zetts smokes him on both sides of the puck.
And if he had have done really anything in the 09 finals.
Crosby was IMO, ahead of Malkin for the Conn going into the Finals in 09 but Malkin clearly earned it when all was said and done.

 

[Noldo]

Either of them could've been Conn worthy...IF his Finals were better.
If he could have even been equal to Zetts in 08 but Zetts smokes him on both sides of the puck.
And if he had have done really anything in the 09 finals.
Crosby was IMO, ahead of Malkin for the Conn going into the Finals in 09 but Malkin clearly earned it when all was said and done.

Although one has to admit that match-ups dictated that narrative. Did Pens try to put Malkin against Zetterberg when thry had the chance or were they happy with relative status quo, trusting that their dept (i.e. Malkin and Staal) would be able to push them through if Crosby does not manage to light DET with Z on his back?

Crosby's trajwctory is quite difficult to predict. Last year he was vlearly the best player on the league, but numberwise still clearly behind the pace he attaibed during his partial years. At times in the before the injury woes Crosby appeared to have a change even to break into Big-4 (to make it Big-5), but now it seems all but certain that he won't achieve such a career.

Had Pens not won the cup i n 2009, Crosby would be among major choke artista, having failed to ever bring his team to promised land. And even though one cannot just count cups, the fact that the five cups awarded afters Pen's cup have be shared between three teams does make Crosby's Pens failure to even reach another final look bad, even though some of it could be attributed to the injuries.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Although one has to admit that match-ups dictated that narrative. Did Pens try to put Malkin against Zetterberg when thry had the chance or were they happy with relative status quo, trusting that their dept (i.e. Malkin and Staal) would be able to push them through if Crosby does not manage to light DET with Z on his back?

Crosby's trajwctory is quite difficult to predict. Last year he was vlearly the best player on the league, but numberwise still clearly behind the pace he attaibed during his partial years. At times in the before the injury woes Crosby appeared to have a change even to break into Big-4 (to make it Big-5), but now it seems all but certain that he won't achieve such a career.

Had Pens not won the cup i n 2009, Crosby would be among major choke artista, having failed to ever bring his team to promised land. And even though one cannot just count cups, the fact that the five cups awarded afters Pen's cup have be shared between three teams does make Crosby's Pens failure to even reach another final look bad, even though some of it could be attributed to the injuries.

Do you mean the big 4 players overall which includes Howe and Orr or the top 4 or 5 centers of all time?

If it is centers he has a chance at everyone but Wayne still.

 

[Rhiessan71]

Although one has to admit that match-ups dictated that narrative. Did Pens try to put Malkin against Zetterberg when thry had the chance or were they happy with relative status quo, trusting that their dept (i.e. Malkin and Staal) would be able to push them through if Crosby does not manage to light DET with Z on his back?

There was another guy named Datsyuk that got the Malkin assignment. An assignment Dats won in '08 but Malkin clearly overcame and won in '09.

Crosby's trajwctory is quite difficult to predict. Last year he was vlearly the best player on the league, but numberwise still clearly behind the pace he attaibed during his partial years. At times in the before the injury woes Crosby appeared to have a change even to break into Big-4 (to make it Big-5), but now it seems all but certain that he won't achieve such a career.

Had Pens not won the cup i n 2009, Crosby would be among major choke artista, having failed to ever bring his team to promised land. And even though one cannot just count cups, the fact that the five cups awarded afters Pen's cup have be shared between three teams does make Crosby's Pens failure to even reach another final look bad, even though some of it could be attributed to the injuries.

That's just it right, Playoffwise, Crosby seems to have already peaked 5 years ago and has been a straight plummet every year since culminating in a horrible performance last season.
And as you mentioned, he has not come close to matching his partial season performances over a FULL season.

Do you mean the big 4 players overall which includes Howe and Orr or the top 4 or 5 centers of all time?

If it is centers he has a chance at everyone but Wayne still.

Just stop Hardy, barring putting up about a half a dozen 140+ point seasons and a couple of Conn Smythes, he has no hope in hell of reaching Mario period, that ship has sailed, move on already, no one is buying it.
He has a slim outside shot at Messier and/or Beliveau but that's going to take another 8-9 years almost the same as his first 8-9 years and the signs, especially in the PO's, are already looking against that.

 

[K Fleur]

There was another guy named Datsyuk that got the Malkin assignment. An assignment Dats won in '08 but Malkin clearly overcame and won in '09..

Datsyuk missed the first 4 games of the 09 finals. In the three games Datsyuk played Malkin had 0 goals 1 assist a 0+/- and 8 PIM. So yes he clearly overcame an absent Datsyuk.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Although one has to admit that match-ups dictated that narrative. Did Pens try to put Malkin against Zetterberg when thry had the chance or were they happy with relative status quo, trusting that their dept (i.e. Malkin and Staal) would be able to push them through if Crosby does not manage to light DET with Z on his back?

Crosby's trajwctory is quite difficult to predict. Last year he was vlearly the best player on the league, but numberwise still clearly behind the pace he attaibed during his partial years. At times in the before the injury woes Crosby appeared to have a change even to break into Big-4 (to make it Big-5), but now it seems all but certain that he won't achieve such a career.

Had Pens not won the cup i n 2009, Crosby would be among major choke artista, having failed to ever bring his team to promised land. And even though one cannot just count cups, the fact that the five cups awarded afters Pen's cup have be shared between three teams does make Crosby's Pens failure to even reach another final look bad, even though some of it could be attributed to the injuries.

No, the Penguins coach didn't believe in line matching.

 

[Sonic Disturbance]

There was another guy named Datsyuk that got the Malkin assignment. An assignment Dats won in '08 but Malkin clearly overcame and won in '09.

Datsyuk missed the first 4 games of the 09 finals. In the three games Datsyuk played Malkin had 0 goals 1 assist a 0+/- and 8 PIM. So yes he clearly overcame an absent Datsyuk.

I don't remember the matchups for 2008, but like the poster above said, Datsyuk missed the first four games of the series. Furthermore, I remember specifically that Babcock put Datysuk on Zetterberg's wing for Game 5, so Crosby actually had to deal with Datysuk + Zetterberg that game. Don't remember his deployment for Game 6/7. Also, Crosby got the Lidstrom/Rafalski pairing in his face while Malkin got the second D-pairing.

 

[DisgruntledGoat*]

My list is there for the public record and a simple look you would know Feds wasn't top 5 so why ask?

My mistake. Top ten.

The point remains.

 

[Son Goku]

Do you mean the big 4 players overall which includes Howe and Orr or the top 4 or 5 centers of all time?

If it is centers he has a chance at everyone but Wayne still.

He'll never catch mario IMO. Maybe as far as points he'll surpass him but not as a player.

 

[Regal]

He'll never catch mario IMO. Maybe as far as points he'll surpass him but not as a player.

He doesn't consider Mario the second best center though, so if you think he can pass the others it makes more sense.