How good was Rod Langway?

[Dennis Bonvie]

Not many D did shut down Gretzky. I should of stated he could shut down most anybody.

Even big Langway had problem clearing out Tim Kerr. Could anyone D at that time move Tim Kerr out from in front of the net.Sometimes, again let me point out the word sometimes, that stats can be misleading.
I'm just going on my memory as I don't have a video library of the Cap's games back in those days. Do you?

Kerr said that 5'9" Mike O'Connell gave him the hardest time in front of the net. He said no matter what he did, O'Connell always managed to tie up his stick.

 

[BraveCanadian]

You are right of course, but Gretzky did score more per game against Langway than he usually did. (of course this is really too small a sample size to conclude anything. It's possible Langway dominated Gretzky, and Gretzky got a bit lucky, or got some points on shots that shouldn't have gone in)

We should dig out Gretzky's stats against the Bruins for the same time and see how he did against Ray.

But you're right, goaltending could figure into that or just the fact that they are a few games across multiple seasons.. maybe he was just hot.

edit - oh yeah.. some of these dates are in the 51 game streak right? Gretz was a little hot at the time. Averaged 3 points per game during that time after all.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I wonder if there is some weird stat out there of any Dman who had any type of success against Wayne? Jack Slater makes some really good points about Langway and the way he was perceived as well IMO.

Bourque had some success against Gretzky, but only when Steve Kasper was playing for the Bruins.

 

[JackSlater]

Jack:
http://www.puckprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=191 was my source for the 08-09 GVT. I do recall there being discussion about Wideman being ahead of Chara for GVT on their team that season, though. Where are your GVT numbers from?

I was using the GVT document that they put out that goes back to 1944 or so. I don't really know why there would be different numbers for 2009...

As far as the question of qualteam/qualcomp and the situations in which they played; if they all received equal TOI, and Langway wasn't playing on the PP while the others were, he would have more ES/SH minutes, which could influence numbers (particularly since only ES minutes really have a substantial consequence on +/-), and he could be playing more 'clutch' defensive minutes (defensive draws/whatever) which would be more likely to have a negative impact on his +/-, compared to 'clutch' offensive minutes played by the others -- which is part of the issue of using +/- to rate players; it doesn't mean that Langway had less of an impact, just that it was less measurable and DGVT relies on +/- and shots. (shots are also largely a symptom of the system, do they give up a lot of perimeter shots? fewer but higher quality shots? etc)

The way that each player was used is clearly important, but overall they would have been used in pretty similar situations, at least defensively. Langway was placed in fewer offensive situations, which would negatively impact his numbers here, but the reason that he was hardly placed in those situations was because he was poor offensively. In this way it is a reflection of him as a player.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on popular opinion and GVT, again, however -- a lot of folks around here were strong believers in the "chara was the best dman" argument, and Chara was far behind the other two finalists in GVT.

Just from looking over GVT results from the last several decades, the skaters perceived to be the best players are routinely the highest ranked by the metric. This does not necessarily mean that they are ranked in the exact proper order, but players thought to be close are generally shown as such. As far as I can see Langway is the major award winner who is furthest behind his competitors. It should be noted I suppose that mainly defensive players are not ranked very highly by this metric.

 

[blogofmike]

We should dig out Gretzky's stats against the Bruins for the same time and see how he did against Ray.

But you're right, goaltending could figure into that or just the fact that they are a few games across multiple seasons.. maybe he was just hot.

edit - oh yeah.. some of these dates are in the 51 game streak right? Gretz was a little hot at the time. Averaged 3 points per game during that time after all.

Gretzky vs Bruins

Date | Score | G | A | PTS
October 16, 1982 | Bruins 6, Oilers 6 | | 2 | 2
October 21, 1982 | Bruins 5, Oilers 3 | | 1 | 1
March 6, 1983 | Oilers 2, Bruins 5 | 1 | | 1
December 30, 1983 | Bruins 0, Oilers 2 | | 1 | 1
February 11, 1984 | Oilers 1, Bruins 4 | D | N | P
February 17, 1984 | Bruins 2, Oilers 5 | | 1 | 1
6 Games, 4 for Bourque | Edm 2-3-1 | 1 | 5 | 6

Bourque missed the first two games with a broken jaw, or softball injury, or puck to the face, or whatever stupid thing happened to him near the beginning of seasons in the early 80's. Gretzky missed Feb 11 1984 with a shoulder injury. I am fairly certain they faced each other Dec 30 and Feb 17, reasonably sure about March 6.

Oilers were 2-2 v Bourque
Oilers were 2-2-1 w/ Wayne (1.67 PPG)
Wayne was 2-1 vs Bourque (1 PPG)

3 games is a small sample. Bourque may have an advantage over Langway as his team did okay without him playing in October 82.

So long as the sample doesn't include the 88 Finals (13 pts in 4.5 games), I think Bourque may have done a reasonable job vs Wayne.

 

[seventieslord]

I wonder if there is some weird stat out there of any Dman who had any type of success against Wayne?

Jack Slater makes some really good points about Langway and the way he was perceived as well IMO.

If you ran the statistics in the years Gretzky was averaging 2.5 PPG, statistically you would expect there would be some he got 4 PPG against and some he had "only" 1 PPG against. With the small sample sizes, I'd still hesitate to conclude much from it.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Oilers were 2-2 v Bourque
Oilers were 2-2-1 w/ Wayne (1.67 PPG)
Wayne was 2-1 vs Bourque (1 PPG)

3 games is a small sample. Bourque may have an advantage over Langway as his team did okay without him playing in October 82.

So long as the sample doesn't include the 88 Finals (13 pts in 4.5 games), I think Bourque may have done a reasonable job vs Wayne.

Yeah I suppose with sample sizes this small it obviously doesn't say much. Pretty wild variations within that amount of games.

Interesting to look at though.

 

[Hardyvan123]

If you ran the statistics in the years Gretzky was averaging 2.5 PPG, statistically you would expect there would be some he got 4 PPG against and some he had "only" 1 PPG against. With the small sample sizes, I'd still hesitate to conclude much from it.

Sample sizes would be a problem, I do know that he absolutely feasted on Vancouver, La and Winnipeg.

Boston and Philly had the best success against him in the time he was in Edmonton.

 

[blogofmike]

Sample sizes would be a problem, I do know that he absolutely feasted on Vancouver, La and Winnipeg.

Boston and Philly had the best success against him in the time he was in Edmonton.

Maybe, but Gretzky-related scoring chances were not diminished in the 1985, 1987 and 1988 Stanley Cup Finals.