How does Euro soccer successfully have big league teams in small towns?

[End on a Hinote]

Simple question, really.

Pro leagues in Europe, like the Premier League in England, have teams successfully run in towns of less than 150,000 (ie, Blackburn).

So how do they do it? And why can't we do that in NA?

Click to read more...

 

[famicommander]

The population density of the European Union is almost 4X that of the United States, first of all. The UK's density is about 8X that of the US. Not even gonna look up comparisons to Canada but you can imagine the gap is massive.

Second, soccer is the only team sport that is on the level of "major league" popularity throughout Europe. Basketball and hockey are fairly popular in certain parts of Europe; baseball and gridiron football aren't even a blip on the radar. Cricket is big in the UK. But nothing is close to the support of soccer across Europe as a whole.

In the US/Canada you have football, baseball, basketball, hockey, and soccer all competing for attention and support. Even stuff like lacrosse is as popular in North America as many team sports besides soccer are in Europe, and people here don't think of lacrosse as a major sport.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Because in Soccer the clubs came first, then the leagues which are pyramids. The clubs are teams that have built up and been able to stay in the top division. It is not a franchise model. If a club is able to build up their club and maintain the finances, they are able to be in the top divison, if not, they are replaced by a different team. NHL operates off franchise values, the league is owned by the 32 franchises and grants franchise their right to exist (i.e., the other 31 teams grant a new franchise which becomes a co-owner of the league)

Many clubs in top divisions of their respective countries would be valued at much smaller than the average NHL franchise even though the sport is much more popular in their countries and bigger globally.

 

[Vegan Knight]

Promotion and relegation.

The small town clubs can get promoted to the top league and struggle to avoid relegation for a few seasons before dropping back down. They don't usually make any dent really and are little different than if an AHL team played league games against NHL teams.

Beyond that, population density plays a role, as does, for English clubs that make it to the Premier League, a ton of money in worldwide TV deals that they split yearly.

Combine with that team being the only thing in town playing a sport that is king throughout the continent and you have something that can survive, and occasionally play in the top league for a few years every now and then. Especially as clubs also get actual massive amounts of cash for selling potentially good players.

The example you gave haven't been in the Premier League for over a decade and even fell to the third division.

 

[oknazevad]

Plus time zones play into it. Namely, all those European domestic leagues are entirely in one time zone, whereas the US and Canada stretch across a continent and include half a dozen time zones between them. Promotion and regulation don't really work well when you cannot guarantee that nearly all time zones have teams for television purposes. (Same reason North American leagues have geographic divisions, too, something also missing from European domestic leagues, though to some extent those leagues are divisions of UEFA, in a fashion.)

 

[KevFu]

Because in Soccer the clubs came first, then the leagues which are pyramids. The clubs are teams that have built up and been able to stay in the top division. It is not a franchise model. If a club is able to build up their club and maintain the finances, they are able to be in the top divison, if not, they are replaced by a different team. NHL operates off franchise values, the league is owned by the 32 franchises and grants franchise their right to exist (i.e., the other 31 teams grant a new franchise which becomes a co-owner of the league)

Many clubs in top divisions of their respective countries would be valued at much smaller than the average NHL franchise even though the sport is much more popular in their countries and bigger globally.

This.

It's entirely the difference between OPEN and CLOSED leagues. I'm from Rochester, NY. I learned very early that my teams were minor league, and were always going to be minor league, and no amount of success would matter.

So I picked an NHL and MLB team that played in the closed major leagues; I got Islanders and Mets on SportsChannel and those are my teams, even though I'm seven hours from their home venues.

In Europe, my devotion to my hometown club affects their chances of success. The club uses the money I give them to try and win promotion. My devotion to, and spending on the Rochester Red Wings wouldn't keep Cal Ripken from being promoted to the Baltimore Orioles. But in Europe it can.

Rochester was really into soccer when we got a team, because we thought that our devotion COULD get us a Major League team in that sport. And then once MLB bypassed us for TV markets like the other closed leagues, support fell to pieces.

There's no reason to be a die-hard, devoted, high spending fan of a minor league city when there's no upward mobility. When you're in an open system, there's every reason to support your town.

 

[Barnum]

The population density of the European Union is almost 4X that of the United States, first of all. The UK's density is about 8X that of the US. Not even gonna look up comparisons to Canada but you can imagine the gap is massive.

Second, soccer is the only team sport that is on the level of "major league" popularity throughout Europe. Basketball and hockey are fairly popular in certain parts of Europe; baseball and gridiron football aren't even a blip on the radar. Cricket is big in the UK. But nothing is close to the support of soccer across Europe as a whole.

In the US/Canada you have football, baseball, basketball, hockey, and soccer all competing for attention and support. Even stuff like lacrosse is as popular in North America as many team sports besides soccer are in Europe, and people here don't think of lacrosse as a major sport.

I dunno about all this but I think you have one part of it right. There’s only one major sport’s league in this country and it’s the Premier League.

Population density has very little to do with it. It’s more loyalty to a team through family and history more than it has to do with regional population sizes. For example, I know more Liverpool fans in my area than any other team and I don’t live anywhere close to Liverpool. No where close to Liverpool.

Another factor is every single little pissant town and city in the UK has a team and that is no exaggeration, so they root for their local team but they pick and choose a Premier Team from anywhere in the country.

Cricket = popular? Dunno know about that either. It is the second most popular sport in the UK but recent polling has as many people disliking Cricket as liking Cricket. It’s also not saying much that it is the 2nd most popular sport.

For a country with 70 million peeps, they don’t really have a lot of fans.

13 million people describe themselves as fans of cricket, including 11.8 million adults and 1.2 million children. 1.5 million more people played, attended or followed cricket in 2022 compared to the launch of the ECB’s Inspiring Generations strategy in 2020.

 

[famicommander]

Population density has a ton to do with it.

The state I live in has roughly the same land area as the entire UK, but the UK has over 10X the population.

There's a big difference between being a town of 150,000 with another town of 150,000 a few miles down the road versus the next closest town being a two hour drive away. Especially in the Western US, cities are like islands out in the ocean.

If I wanted to attend a road game at the next closest city for one of my home teams that would literally entail driving hundreds of miles and crossing the Rocky Mountains.

 

[BKIslandersFan]

Soccer doesn't really have competition from other sports like in US and Canada.

For example, in England, yes there is rugby, but you compare attendance and revenue of club rugby and club football, on average, and its not even close.

 

[tucker3434]

Kinda like college football here, isn’t it?

Many times it’s taken 100+ years to build that type of following. Plus, having a game only once a week helps.

 

[GrumpyKoala]

I recommend the netflix show call

Sunderland til I die
2 season and potentially a 3rd on the way.

It depict the up and down of a fairly small team going through the relegation system. Where you understand quite clearly the unconditional attachment the fan have for theirs club.

 

[Barnum]

Population density has a ton to do with it.

The state I live in has roughly the same land area as the entire UK, but the UK has over 10X the population.

There's a big difference between being a town of 150,000 with another town of 150,000 a few miles down the road versus the next closest town being a two hour drive away. Especially in the Western US, cities are like islands out in the ocean.

If I wanted to attend a road game at the next closest city for one of my home teams that would literally entail driving hundreds of miles and crossing the Rocky Mountains.

Fans of Premier teams become fans of that team because of family history or when they are a kid they liked a certain player like Beckham. It has very little to do with location of a person or where someone lives.

I live about 45min/1 hr away from a long standing Premier team, you wouldn’t know It because all I see is Man U, Liverpool and Arsenal jerseys everywhere.

 

[CharasLazyWrister]

North American pro sports leagues have been allowed to behave like monopolies since at least the 1920s when the US Supreme Court ruled that MLB could essentially own the sport of baseball and didn’t have the abide by any antitrust measures which every other sector of the economy was tied to.

Subsequently, the major pro sports leagues have reached a size to where they are essentially impossible to compete with. The leagues are closed (no relegation/promotion), and all of the “competing” owners are allowed to openly collaborate to tighten their grip on the league. It’s a completely rigged game.

Shameless plug, but I actually did a video essay on this exact topic if you care to watch.

 

[tarheelhockey]

It’s easier to understand this comparison if you think of college sports as “professional sports”, which it is.

Ruston, LA has 22K residents and a football stadium that seats 28K. They average a solid 15K, the equivalent of every single undergraduate student and a quarter of the local population on average.

Put a pro team in a town like that, and it would fail instantly. The football team thrives because its cheap, only plays occasionally, is integrated with the local culture, and is competing against other small-time programs in a limited market… but still with a lot of local pride on the line and a semblance of connection to the big time. That’s the formula in Euro football as well.

 

[Tawnos]

Simple question, really.

Pro leagues in Europe, like the Premier League in England, have teams successfully run in towns of less than 150,000 (ie, Blackburn).

So how do they do it? And why can't we do that in NA?

Successfully run as in being kept afloat by wealthy investors? The owners of Blackburn Rovers FC has apparently lost the equivalent of $195m in the first 12 years of owning the team. They don’t seem to care much if they lose money, so there aren’t worries about the team folding or anything… but successful in the business sense they are not.

 

[Vegan Knight]

North American pro sports leagues have been allowed to behave like monopolies since at least the 1920s when the US Supreme Court ruled that MLB could essentially own the sport of baseball and didn’t have the abide by any antitrust measures which every other sector of the economy was tied to.

Subsequently, the major pro sports leagues have reached a size to where they are essentially impossible to compete with. The leagues are closed (no relegation/promotion), and all of the “competing” owners are allowed to openly collaborate to tighten their grip on the league. It’s a completely rigged game.

Shameless plug, but I actually did a video essay on this exact topic if you care to watch.

European leagues are completely rigged for the very few big teams, and even some of them need to have ownership with over 100 billion dollars who don't care about profit to compete.

The Premier League having maybe seven teams with any realistic shot of winning the league any year is a rarity in most European countries.

 

[CharasLazyWrister]

European leagues are completely rigged for the very few big teams, and even some of them need to have ownership with over 100 billion dollars who don't care about profit to compete.

The Premier League having maybe seven teams with any realistic shot of winning the league any year is a rarity in most European countries.

How is it actually rigged though? I understand owners with deep pockets inherently gives you a massive advantage. But how is it structurally rigged?

Not asking because I am disputing it. Genuinely curious what goes on at a league level as you mention.

 

[Jussi]

I recommend the netflix show call

Sunderland til I die
2 season and potentially a 3rd on the way.

It depict the up and down of a fairly small team going through the relegation system. Where you understand quite clearly the unconditional attachment the fan have for theirs club.

Welcome To Wrexham as well. Not only do they cover Wrexham AFC but they also shine the spotlight on other teams in their league. Just a couple of weeks ago they highlighted Dorking Wanderers, who came away looking like money from their time on the screen.

 

[GrumpyKoala]

Welcome To Wrexham as well. Not only do they cover Wrexham AFC but they also shine the spotlight on other teams in their league. Just a couple of weeks ago they highlighted Dorking Wanderers, who came away looking like money from their time on the screen.

Thanks for that!
I don't own FX and am an obedient sheep that shun at the idea of pirating stuff so unfortunately I don't see a way I get to watch it.

But the wiki page was facinating how the first serie seem to influence the second.
The series is said to be inspired by Sunderland 'Til I Die, which prompted McElhenney to be interested in buying an association football club,[7] as well as the influence of Humphrey Ker, who was also interested in purchasing a club.[13] Ker was said to have been always watching association football in the writer's room of McElhenney's show Mythic Quest, causing McElhenney to become interested as well, particularly "the idea of promotion and demotion",

 

[Albatros]

Successfully run as in being kept afloat by wealthy investors? The owners of Blackburn Rovers FC has apparently lost the equivalent of $195m in the first 12 years of owning the team. They don’t seem to care much if they lose money, so there aren’t worries about the team folding or anything… but successful in the business sense they are not.

There are also teams like Heidenheim (pop. 50,000) in the German Bundesliga, sustainable finances built on several local corporate sponsors and a stadium provided by the municipality.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Simple question, really.

Pro leagues in Europe, like the Premier League in England, have teams successfully run in towns of less than 150,000 (ie, Blackburn).

So how do they do it? And why can't we do that in NA?

The same reason college football does. Fanbase built over generations in markets with no other sports competition and fans that are conditioned to root for the laundry not the player.

 

[Jussi]

Thanks for that!
I don't own FX and am an obedient sheep that shun at the idea of pirating stuff so unfortunately I don't see a way I get to watch it.

But the wiki page was facinating how the first serie seem to influence the second.
The series is said to be inspired by Sunderland 'Til I Die, which prompted McElhenney to be interested in buying an association football club,[7] as well as the influence of Humphrey Ker, who was also interested in purchasing a club.[13] Ker was said to have been always watching association football in the writer's room of McElhenney's show Mythic Quest, causing McElhenney to become interested as well, particularly "the idea of promotion and demotion",

If you live outside the US, then it's on Disney+.

 

[robertmac43]

Brighton fan here. The clubs are much more ingrained in local communities across the pond. Brighton has around 275k population and most of those people would feel some kind of connection with the local club.

 

[Barnum]

How is it actually rigged though? I understand owners with deep pockets inherently gives you a massive advantage. But how is it structurally rigged?

Not asking because I am disputing it. Genuinely curious what goes on at a league level as you mention.

I looked into this once. So, there’s 20 teams in the Premier League. Obviously, the bottom 2 teams are regulated every season but realistically, the top 15-16 teams have been in the Premier League for so long, it’s basically an outright monopoly. Chances of those 16 teams ever being regulated are nil to none.

Anecdotal I know but looking at my area, there’s 3 league teams that I could figuratively walk to their stadium if I wanted. 1 of the teams is tier 4 and at one time they were in the Premier League back in the 60s. I live near a town that’s comparable to Oceanside California in size even though I am rural by US standards. Those three teams have zero chance of ever making it back in the Premier League with the stadium capacity is about 6,000 seats for the tier 4 team. So, for that team to make it into the Premier League, they have to place top 2 for 4 years in row working on a budget that can seat 6k in the seats. Now compare that to the top 16 teams in the PL and their deep pockets to bring in the top players of the world. It’s never going to happen And thats case for the 100s of teams out there with a chance to make into the PL. The stranglehold by the top teams is real.

 

[Tawnos]

There are also teams like Heidenheim (pop. 50,000) in the German Bundesliga, sustainable finances built on several local corporate sponsors and a stadium provided by the municipality.

I don't know if I see that as materially different. Their sponsors subsidize what would otherwise be a losing financial proposition for their own reasons.

In other words, their finances might be sustainable, but they aren't self-sustaining. They require outside help.