How do you test a fair CBA and 30 team Parity ???

Discussion in 'Fugu's Business of Hockey Forum' started by Mess, Feb 5, 2005.

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  1. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    Now this will never happen but it theory it should work ..

    No Entry Draft at all ..

    Every player turning 19 becomes a UFA ..

    Free to go to the team of his choice .. In an hard cap world all is fair in love and War .. Big market teams have no $$ advantage and its all based on Cap room and planning..


    In a 30 team league that has a:

    Min (32 Mil) and Max(38) Hard Cap range for all teams
    Max roster size or 22 or 23 in the NHL
    Limit on players under contract by organization ie 60 .. (ex. 23 NHL, 22 AHL , 5-10 in Junor/ NCAA & 5-10 Euros)
    4 year entry level salary rookie Max 850k + 250k bonuses
    NHL waivers to move players Up and Down as now

    Isn't this whole mess about creating parity among all teams ??

    If a young player chooses his team you are darn sure you are going to get effort from an owners point of view and avoid the Lindos I am not going to play fiasco's ..

    The RJ Unberger is a perfect example .. Drafted by Vancouver .. Contract problem and traded, NYR not interested in signing him ..Sat out the year ..Umberger being a PA born player decided between Pitts and Philly and is now very happy to be with that organization and it took UFA to accomplish that ..

    Teams would have no reason to tank seasons to get draft picks

    Teams that need the young player the most would plan the best, and the young teams would have their pick of the UFA vets to build their teams that have strong cores already .. It allows teams to sign by need and not BPA ..

    Say for next draft year ... Crosby may want to play in Montreal as his first choice, or maybe pick NJ because his friend Zach Parise is there etc. or he likes LA .. Gilbert Brule may pick Vancouver .. but that is not always true .and it has to be a 2-way streets and his team of choice has to have a need and Cap room . but it certainly would increase Fan support in cities and increase revenue and the Euro's anybody guess .. The future players like Phil Kessel could pick his city to promote the game in the USA etc Kessel in Columbus would go a long way to promote Fan support in the USA verses Kessel getting drafted and playing in Montreal or Edmonton lets say.

    It would promote teambuilding throughtout the NHL ,

    Almost like making it like NCAA recruiting in the States ..You hear the prospect development cliché often enough .. now these amateur scouts could really prove their worth by securing the best talent for their teams.

    and with a complete balance for the NHL and NHLPA in a new CBA .. why would this not in theory work??
     
  2. Jester

    Jester Registered User

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    you pretty much summed up why you WOULDN'T want to see such a system developed in the NHL. NCAA recruiting violations etc... would you really want to bring that into the situation of kids coming into the league? it is common practice for teams to "woo" UFA's right now, Detroit in particular does this... do we really want the Rangers bringing in kids with the ability to show off NYC? how would teams like Columbus, Nashville, hell even here in philly, compete with that? sure some kids wouldn't be interested in that, but when you are 18 and about to make vast sums of money, NYC ain't a bad place to be.

    added to this is the issue of dispersing talent throughout the league, a major part of the whole parity thing. what the draft in theory does is give the weak teams the first chance at the best players (i know, this is obvious). that system does a much better job of creating parity than a free-for-all as they reach age.

    the draft remains the best way to create parity and dispersal throughout the league, and is also the fairest and far less complicated method of bringing in talent. "recruiting" would bring in a whole slew of problems and corrupting issues that no one would want to see...
     
  3. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    Washington funded by AOL .. Traded Jagr ,Traded Lang, Traded Gonchar etc.. drafted Ovechkin ... Is that what you call a fair system of dispersing talent fairly ??

    Is that a good example of weak teams getting better or owners selling off players to make themselves worse to get the best young talent ??
     
  4. EricBowser

    EricBowser Registered User

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    The draft should be reduced to six rounds, nine is too many. This will allow for more players to be undrafted free agents, something the NHLPA should be all for
     
  5. nomorekids

    nomorekids The original, baby

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    Yes and no. There are some teams that make a killing in later rounds(Detroit for one) and the draft is too much of a crapshoot. I was all for scaling back to nine rounds...but six is too few.
     
  6. CarlRacki

    CarlRacki Registered User

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    If Washington is funded by AOL, there's a shareholder lawsuit coming soon.
    Washington, in reality, is funded (primarily) by Ted Leonsis, the vice chairman of AOL, with his personal fortune. There's a big difference.

    Regardless, what if Washington were funded by AOL? Does this mean the team doesn't have a right to expect a profit? It doesn't work that way. Corporations, or wealthy individuals for that matter, don't invest millions of dollars into something with the intent to lose money.

    As for last year's trades, they had nothing to do with Washington trying to get the best young talent. They had everything to do with breaking up an underachieving teams that was losing millions of dollars every month.
     
  7. Jester

    Jester Registered User

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    ah... isn't as if they had a great team when they had those guys. and if owners want to send their talent elsewhere... then the team is weaker and will LOSE thus enabling them to draft a good player. there is also a lottery, isn't as if you are guaranteed of the top pick or anything.

    so yeah, jagr to NYR, gonchar to Boston, and Lang to Detroit... in a salary cap world different teams would have gotten jagr, and lang most likely... or the trade would have had to involve players getting paid more.

    that is the other thing that will happen in a salary cap world, it will be MUCH harder to impossible to make "salary" dump trades since teams won't have the space to take on hefty contracts like they do now.
     
  8. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    Well the teams like Atlanta and Pittsburgh and Florida have picked early for a while now .. They have good young cores to build around ..

    In the past with no CAP and no Equality the big money teams would get in bidding wars over the best talent while these teams would draft early ..

    In my suggesting its the Atlanta's that already have the Kovalchuk, Heatley, Lehtonen, and Coburns that now are front and center for the Prongers and Kovalevs that it needs more then hisg draft picks that are years away form helping ..

    With this new system the Big Market teams are going to be broken up if say Colorado loses Forsberg , and has to pick between Blake or Foote .. They are the ones in the Near Future that need the younger players

    The young teams now will have little to no comp from Big Market teams for UFA and still get the best youth ..

    In a free system all is fair for all 30 teams NO..
     
  9. Epsilon

    Epsilon #basta

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    I for one like Messenger's idea. I think if there is going to be a change towards a salary cap environment, I'd rather see a totally new system, something that hasn't been tried before, rather than the status quo with a salary cap glued on top.
     
  10. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    Well the thread is all about fairness in an 30 team egual league .. Teams will always be at different stages all the time ..

    In theory teams would all be looking for what they need not what they draft ..

    and it should really all balance out ..

    That is what makes it an interesting idea ..
     
  11. Jester

    Jester Registered User

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    you are describing growing pains. yeah, they will happen, but within the next 3 years equilibrium is going to set in as contracts from prior to the CBA are all pretty much expired.

    yeah, teams will have to make some tough choices when it comes to talent -- note what happens in the NFL -- and the teams that manage their roster under the cap are going to be the most successful.

    personally i look forward to the game at the higher level that is going to take place there. management is truly going to matter in the salary cap. the guys that make the tough decisions are going to be at a premium. now it will be a combination of good talent, good coaching, and good team management... rather than who has the most cash to go with the coach.

    i'm a flyers fan... we going to have to make some tough choices (as will all teams... you don't think ottawa, tampa, etc. are going to run into cap problems with their young talent?), but that is the fun of the cap. that is why the NFL is such a media beast year round, it truly matters what you do in the offseason because it is much harder to save yourself with some deadline trade from a non-contender. that's all great stuff.

    the problem previously was that these small market teams had a few things going against them.

    drafting: they could draft excellently but due to the lack of cap, they would have problems keeping their talent long term. thus their drafting no longer mattered down the road...

    UFA's: small markets couldn't compete for free-agents to fill in the holes on their teams. thus they would have some really solid high-end talent, but no supporting cast long-term.

    sustainability: note the two problems above. both florida and tampa have been good... just unable to keep their talent together in the current world. this is a further issue for the league since winning breeds popularity and these teams couldn't win consistently due to the fact that they couldn't keep their teams together.

    management: it sux to be a GM in a place that can't afford to make moves, you're hamstrung. look at a guy like sather going from edmonton to nyc... not that he's done a good job with the money. most of these small market teams have struggled to get good management groups operating their teams, which is another reason they've struggled. florida had clarke, but he left to come back to the flyers (though money prolly had nothing to do with that).

    cap solves a lot of these problems. crappy teams will draft good players and be able to keep them. UFA field will be leveled and they will have a fair shot at getting depth on their roster, which was previously tough to do through the open market for a lot of these teams.

    look at the NFL... is the draft bad in that?
     
  12. Jester

    Jester Registered User

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    a good management group gets what they need from the draft... it isn't as if they are forced to make the pick that they end up making. if you don't like what is there, trade down... get more picks. so on and so forth.

    most teams go into the draft with a targeted position and go about getting talent depth there, are they really constrained by the fact that they pick wherever they do? not really.

    you're idea is interesting, but it opens up absolute chaos for the process of bringing players into the league. not to mention if a kid is a UFA at 18 do you really think these NHL teams wouldn't be ALL OVER kids that showed promise when they are 12? do you really want that situation taking place? and sure you can put in a rule saying they can't do that, but then you are starting to deal with this policy of policing the league all over the world... that's not really feasible.

    it really wouldn't work "nicely" at all. it would be a mess. there would be corruption, bribes, feeder systems like what goes on in baseball in Latin America (which they are trying to reform cuz it is a complete joke).

    yeah.. as to the never been done before, this is EXACTLY what baseball is like outside the US, and it sux.
     
  13. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    Good post .

    On the NFL note .. We are talking older player now 22-23 that make an immediate impact in the NHL dfrating 17 year old just turning 18 means you wait 5 years on average to see the fruits of your draft ... That is not help at all to poor teams till years down the road ..

    Also this whole system is about the big market teams revenue sharing with the small to keep all around .. That implies that logically you want the big market teams to be competitive in the future ..

    This adjustment period that forces them to lose their current stars in Cap moves weakens them by default .. That is still fine to bring Salaries into balance .. but now these teams are not going to be the front runners for UFA talent as that will got to the Florida's Atlanta and Pittsburgh that need add 20 million to get up to 30+ million.. Leaving the only dirrection for the Big Market teams to go down ...

    Are they now expected to spend 5 years near the bottom of the league rebuilding and drafting early to once again move forward .. That can't be what the NHL intends is it.. but that is what would happen .. or you will have these teams constanly losing a 30 year old to UFA and snapping up a different one only to be average year after year .. That is not Parity either ..
     
  14. Mess

    Mess Global Moderator

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    Well I had suggest 19 years old and recruiting could be only during the off season .. These things could be address just like the NCAA rules they are not recuiting 12 year old either ..

    Those are easily solved .. but its all intended for marketing the NHL ,, If Vancouver wants Brule to replace the departed Naslund in the Future .. Vancouver would be a obvious team for him and it keeps fans going through these departures .. and more revenue etc .. Now Vancouver would have to fall to the bottom of the league to replace its former star and have a chance at Brule and drafting another young kid in mid to late 20's of the first round and then waiting 5 years to have him join the Nucks if he does not bust in the meantime .. When Naslund could be gone now or in a year or two .. I really see nothing wrong with that as my suggestion would play right into that scenario ..

    What would be the use of Atlanta with a good young core drafting him?? for the good of the league .. and even with him he will not make an immediate impact and then next year they are drafting Phil Kessel from the draft and so on ..

    That is my whole concept you are balancing all teams to a 32 -38 mil Cap figure and why not balance the talent young and old across the league in the same manner and rather then a draft .. Let the teams recruit the players they want to fill holes ..
     
  15. Jester

    Jester Registered User

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    NCAA is an absolute mess... check Ohio St. for an example of it... they are not alone.
     
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