How do you feel about this team?

OvermanKingGainer

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Feb 3, 2015
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Fig said:
Speaking of moneyball, why the frick did we try and compete in 2015 instead of rebuild that season and aim for CMD/Eichel?

In fairness, I don't think 16 goals and 34pts from Lance Bouma, or 34 points and +18 from Kris Russell, or 56 pts from Dennis Wideman, or 12 goals from Josh Jooris, or 76 pts from Jiri Hudler, or a .918 SV% from Jonas Hiller, or even 60 pts from Monahan, were things anyone expected going into that season. The arrival of Gaudreau was supposed to keep fans in the seats during the tank for McEichel, while the signings of Raymond and Engelland were just supposed to keep the team from promoting a Poirier or Ferland or Wotherspoon too soon.

It happened outside of anyone's control other than Hartley, who deserves the Jack Adams.

The bigger issue was not developing and utilizing Bennett properly the next year and following years. If Monahan had never established himself as pseudo #1 center we'd have become an elite squad.
 

Nanuuk

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Nov 16, 2013
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I don't know about you guys, but the team's recent play gives me confidence. Particularly, the D Corp. I have been a big Kylington fan and I've liked Hamonic (even if he sucks playing with Hanifin), but when Andersson is playing with Hanny, they are solid. And the 3rd pair of Forbort and Gustafsson has been rock solid as well. This could be our strength going into the low scoring games that you see in the play-offs.
 
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SKRusty

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I don't know about you guys, but the team's recent play gives me confidence. Particularly, the D Corp. I have been a big Kylington fan and I've liked Hamonic (even if he sucks playing with Hanifin), but when Andersson is playing with Hanny, they are solid. And the 3rd pair of Forbort and Gustafsson has been rock solid as well. This could be our strength going into the low scoring games that you see in the play-offs.

I think Ward will put Gustafsson and Hamonic together to allow Travis to get get healthier and to make him earn the second pairing back. Looking forward to next season it is probably best Andersson moves to the Second pairing.
 
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Nanuuk

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Gee I hope not. If Hamonic is to play anything but 3rd pair, it should be with Gio. For whatever reason, he's not a good fit with Hanifin. And Forbort is excellent on the PK so I wouldn't want to sit him either. I really don't know what the solution is, but if the Flames have any interest in re-signing one of these players they'll be treated right with ice time.

Edit:

And Gustaffson looks like an older, more mature version of Kylington, but with more offensive flair and fewer mistakes. Playing on PP1 frees up Gio to make PP2 better and takes some of the load off of him.
 
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Rubi

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Feeling good about the team today. Stay tuned. My feelings may change later on.
 

Boomstick

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Just nervous about Rittich. He hasn't looked good at all in the last month.
Team needs to start games on time also. Don't understand why we let in so many quick goals at the beginning of the game.
For 2 or 3 games I like our team, then the next 2 or 3 games i hate our team.
It's still too inconsistent. We could be leading the Pacific or we could be 10 points out of the playoffs with the way this team has played. No idea who's going to show up each and every night.
 
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DFF

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1st line is not working. Only consistent guy on the line is gaudreau. The other 2 guys just standing around looking for a free shot. They need to split it up. One shooter on the line is enough. Let Lindholm drives his own line, we need more depth scoring.

Gaudreau Bennett Monahan
Takchuk back mangipanne
Dube Lindholm czarnik
Lucic Janko Ryan


No I don't think Bennett deserves it but that's the best chance to distribute the scoring. Mcdavid has kassian, why can't Johnny have Bennett?
 
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Rubi

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Haha ... Has it changed ...we are on a rollercoaster ride with a bad ending.
Feeling a little under the weather this morning. I think I caught a bad case of 24 hour Flamitus yesterday.

giphy (10).gif
 

SKRusty

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Jan 20, 2016
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1st line is not working. Only consistent guy on the line is gaudreau. The other 2 guys just standing around looking for a free shot. They need to split it up. One shooter on the line is enough. Let Lindholm drives his own line, we need more depth scoring.

Gaudreau Bennett Monahan
Takchuk back mangipanne
Dube Lindholm czarnik
Lucic Janko Ryan


No I don't think Bennett deserves it but that's the best chance to distribute the scoring. Mcdavid has kassian, why can't Johnny have Bennett?

Clearly you did not watch any of last nights game. The most effective Calgary player last night was Lucic. Yes people in playoff games where the games get clogged up it is a player like Milan that creates space.

That line-up is moronic. 12 Point player centering the first line. pfft Some people here have drank way too much Kool Aid being sold on a player that has never delivered despite being given numerous opportunities.
 

DFF

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Clearly you did not watch any of last nights game. The most effective Calgary player last night was Lucic. Yes people in playoff games where the games get clogged up it is a player like Milan that creates space.

That line-up is moronic. 12 Point player centering the first line. pfft Some people here have drank way too much Kool Aid being sold on a player that has never delivered despite being given numerous opportunities.

Did you bother to read my post?

I said reason was to get 1st line going and distribute the scoring.

Lucic one good game of the month doesn't change my opinion, sorry

Also when lucic is your most effective player you are f***ed.

You sound like Ward with this lucic thing btw

Also I like Bennett but nobody accused me of drinking koolaid... everyone here know that lol
 
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Fig

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I wasn’t taking a shot at Fig, he’s an awesome poster and I love how he breaks things down. Unfortunately I don’t have the free time I used to.

I am acutely self aware my walls of texts are daunting and not always befitting of a casual forum chat. But I fear being misunderstood more than being known as the guy who talks way too damn much to shorten them. No offense taken for skipping over that entry.

It's a problem I struggle with at times in real life as well. I just can't find the sweet spot between concise and effective communication as a skill even though I have read a ton of material about how to attempt to bridge the gap.
 
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super6646

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Brodie-hamonic back...

They’re gonna shoehorn the later with Hanifin when he gets back. Go f*** yourself ward, I’m actually livid rn.
 

Fig

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In fairness, I don't think 16 goals and 34pts from Lance Bouma, or 34 points and +18 from Kris Russell, or 56 pts from Dennis Wideman, or 12 goals from Josh Jooris, or 76 pts from Jiri Hudler, or a .918 SV% from Jonas Hiller, or even 60 pts from Monahan, were things anyone expected going into that season. The arrival of Gaudreau was supposed to keep fans in the seats during the tank for McEichel, while the signings of Raymond and Engelland were just supposed to keep the team from promoting a Poirier or Ferland or Wotherspoon too soon.

It happened outside of anyone's control other than Hartley, who deserves the Jack Adams.

The bigger issue was not developing and utilizing Bennett properly the next year and following years. If Monahan had never established himself as pseudo #1 center we'd have become an elite squad.

Plenty of things unexpectedly failed but more things went right than wrong.

- Baertschi was supposed to be the top prospect to graduate that season. He was close, but essentially narrowly lost his spot to Gaudreau as he really wasn't performing in pre-season IIRC.
- TSpoon not claiming the spot as he was supposed to.
- Losing Cammy our prior season high scorer.
- Smid injury issues
- No right handed shots, especially on RW.
- Most of the prospects deemed not ready for the bigs after watching them in camp.
- Matt Stajan 1C
- Mikael Backlund. Non-mesh injury prone version.
- Smaller and younger roster that was often bullied and grit was deemed required.
- Goalies a major problem post Kipper era.
- Playoff mandate with a rebuilt roster and some excellent players for the 2015 draft

- Gaudreau was extremely close to be demoted early in the season. Burke told him if he changed he game, he should pack his bags. The rest is history as he developed great chemistry with Monahan and challenged for the Calder.
- A crap ton of rookies came out and contributed in a middle 6 manner. (Jooris, Granlund, Ferland etc.)
- Cardiac kids and lunch pail group.
- Goal tending was solid.


Bennett's development is an odd one to me. I can't tell if it's more unfortunate circumstances or horrible development/deployment. Does he continue to develop way better with Backlund and Frolik Tkachuk wasn't drafted (ie: The rumored attempt at a 3 way trade for us to nab Pulujarvi at the draft)? But I think I had a totally different view of Bennett than most remember when he was drafted. In his draft year in the pre-season, I watched him do things with confidence in a way that made me believe he would quickly surpass Gaudreau as our most skilled forward. Somewhere along the lines, he sealed that off Baertschi style. I really don't think he is completely lacking hockey IQ. I think he can think at a fast pace, but has learned to second guess all of his instincts which slows things down, makes him seem like he processes things slowly and paint him into a corner decision making wise. I think he is seriously lacking guidance in bringing a vast skill set to NHL speed. Because he didn't get that either from line mates or coaching, his skills never were brought to NHL speed and still aren't. He easily showed something that should have been a superior version of 2C level Kadri or an interesting version of current hot streak Backlund. He needs better coaching and confidence to bring that out and I do think he will be able to achieve 1C in his career.
 

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/RANT

Flames are constantly shaking things up or dealing with some weird instability. Off the top of my head (hopefully I don't mix up a few years):

2016-2017: Hartley out, Gulutzan in. Medium shake up of roster (New goalies). Dennis Wideman debacle.

2017-2018: HC unchanged. Major shake up of roster (roster and goalies). Gulutzan completely redesigns system to play around a puck moving goalie in Mike Smith (might as well have been a new HC).

2018-2019: Gulutzan out, Peters in. Major shake up of roster (Roster mainly, goalies unchanged). Playoff collapse which seemed to start around the All Star break (Players don't escape criticism, but I think Peters also tried getting cute and messed up his relationship with the team). Treliving extended, as part of his extension negotiations, he specifically demands more autonomy.

2019-2020: Quiet off season, roster essentially unchanged (back up and Neal/Lucic and quiet TDL). HC change mid season as Peters resigns due to racism debacle. Ward thrown in the hot set with no time to prep. Brodie collapses during practice. Reports that Lucic was so unhappy he considered retiring. Flames AGM diagnosed with ALS. Gaudreau's grandpa passes away...


Also we Flames fans have been having much more serious discussions about ownership meddling. There's a ton of rumblings that Treliving had deals in place to acquire Ben Bishop twice and combinations of ownership being unavailable and vetoing made that fall through twice. It is also reported that a trade was in place for Zucker last year TDL that was essentially a fleecing (Frolik + super late 1st) but smoke is showing up that essentially stated that ownership vetoed the deal because they didn't want to pay the cash salary.

Flames ownership also is willing to spend to the cap, doesn't seem to want to pay for management. TBH, I'd rather a situation like Anaheim where they have an internal budget below the cap and allows the GM to do things as he sees fit as long as he's within that internal budget. The opposite seems to be true for the Flames. Treliving can suggest whatever he wants, but ownership seems to always want to have input on exactly how that unfolds. For quite a while, an ownership representative had to review every single transaction and approve it.

This shows up in things like: Refusing to pay a reasonable amount for both coaching and GM. This has manifested in Sutter/Feaster/Burke*/Treliving as GM in the last 14 years and IIRC, all guys were kinda underpaid per league average. Sutter was GM/Coach. Coaching wise, they also refuse to pay. This manifested as D.Sutter dual role/Playfair/Keenan/B.Sutter/Hartley/Gulutzan/Peters/Ward in the last 14 years. Flames fans would desperately love someone respectable like Lavi, Galant, Boudreau etc. but we aren't confident that ownership will be willing to pay them at all (Rumors were that Gulutzan made $700K as a HC and Peters 1.5 Mil).

Ownership also refuses to pay for players not on the NHL roster and they'd rather give away assets rather than pay real cash. This ended up as things like giving away Regehr for a pittance to get rid of Kotalik were the past. Salary retention has not been done by the Flames for... ever. Before Treliving, we hadn't even seen buyout occur for at least up to Sutter as GM (though we always were confused why buyouts over salary retention was allowed by Treliving).

I mean, everyone laughs at Vancouver, Phoenix, Edmonton and Ottawa for having some of the worst management/ownership handicaps out there. But seriously speaking, Calgary is right up there, but somehow the ownership group is very good avoiding criticism. It's like a Scooby Doo meddling kids situation. I think the Calgary situation is on par with the Phoenix situation back when Maloney and Treliving were the GM/AGM in Phoenix. But at least they had the freedom to choose how to do things, even if they knew they were essentially playing money ball with essentially one of the lowest internal budgets in the league. Speaking of moneyball, why the frick did we try and compete in 2015 instead of rebuild that season and aim for CMD/Eichel? What was the reasoning for ownership for that type of mandate??? I loved 2015... but was it the best way to approach the move away from the old core?

I honestly don't know if the Flames can win anything at all unless ownership mandate changes. It to me seems like combinations of too much off ice distractions behind the scenes that most fans will never notice and putting together a really damn nice machine, but cheaping out on the crew to maintain and fine tune it. It's really frustrating.

This is the best Flames roster we have seen since 2015. But I honestly don't feel any confidence in it. I think a bunch of Flames fans aren't too sure about things right now and some of the opinions are either the core is highly flawed and rotten OR the core somehow doesn't have the proper support to play to its full potential and thus is playing well below its potential. We've seen insane fluctuations of what this team/players plays like with the same core but different coaches and different surges and slumps over several years now with the most jarring examples in the play from guys like Gio and Brodie. That's super weird and crazy. I think this is a coaching and mandate situation. It's not the core and the first season under Peters should be an indication it's not a pure talent or players fitting issue. It's outside of that.

QFT. Calgary's ownership is f***ing terrible, and their weird penny pinching strategies are a big reason why mediocrity is synonymous with Calgary Flames.
 

JPeeper

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Flames have been a cap team for the past 2 decades, have a fairly large scouting department and aren't afraid to sign our stars long term contracts as well as signing free agents.

How can anyone say our ownership group is penny pinching.

Some of you have no idea what you're talking about.
 

Calculon

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They do penny pinch though on both coaching and in their peculiar principled stance of not wanting to pay players to not play for them, which means no salary retention. Yes, they spend to the cap but in this competitive environment, that's not enough by itself.

All in all, they're probably average or maybe a little below as far as NHL owners go. Nowhere near as bad as say Melnyk, but also nowhere near as good as someone like Vinik.
 

Fig

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Flames have been a cap team for the past 2 decades, have a fairly large scouting department and aren't afraid to sign our stars long term contracts as well as signing free agents.

How can anyone say our ownership group is penny pinching.

Some of you have no idea what you're talking about.

Actually, we barely had any scouting staff when Sutter was on board which was why we liked the WHL boys. He requested we expand the scouting group. Feaster did the same and specifically expanded to the NCAA. Treliving has expanded European scouting.

I will agree they have started loosening the belt in the last few seasons, but there are still major sections where they are oddly restrictive on spending and there are still facets to those restrictions that handicap our current roster.
 

Body Checker

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Team is just not fast enough throughout lineup - Line 1 - Monahan, Line 2 - Tkachuk, Line 3 - Lucic, Line 4 - Jankowski......when we play top teams we cannot consistently enough create separation or attack in waves as the few faster guys we have can be shutdown.

I cannot understand how Treliving thought a top 6 with Monohan, Tkachuk and Neal was going to cut it.
 

Dack

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Team is just not fast enough throughout lineup - Line 1 - Monahan, Line 2 - Tkachuk, Line 3 - Lucic, Line 4 - Jankowski......when we play top teams we cannot consistently enough create separation or attack in waves as the few faster guys we have can be shutdown.

I cannot understand how Treliving thought a top 6 with Monohan, Tkachuk and Neal was going to cut it.
Even our "fast" guys aren't that fast. Outside of Rieder the fastest forward on the team is??? Gaudreau maybe? Bennett? Mangiapane?

All decent skaters but no one really fast.
 

Fig

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Team is just not fast enough throughout lineup - Line 1 - Monahan, Line 2 - Tkachuk, Line 3 - Lucic, Line 4 - Jankowski......when we play top teams we cannot consistently enough create separation or attack in waves as the few faster guys we have can be shutdown.

I cannot understand how Treliving thought a top 6 with Monohan, Tkachuk and Neal was going to cut it.

This one I am a little curious about. Under Hartley, the speed thing never seemed to be a concern. It was only after the later coaches that we would complain that almost everyone is slow. Is the speed thing compounded by a systems issue where the players?
 

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