How did the Red Wings lose in 2009?

[daver]

Doesnt take a genius to connect the dots if one feels so inclined daver.

Are the dots are the NHL decisions -----------> Pens Cup win?

 

[Killion]

Are the dots are the NHL decisions -----------> Pens Cup win?

... tryin' to get me to commit to a massive conspiracy theory are ya daver?... in this case I think it was simply a total lack of critical thought & incompetence by the League however.... I can understand why some might take the next step & suspect deliberate gerrymandering, rigged. Absolutely. It is possible & I wouldnt put it past that small coterie at the top of the league but no, I dont believe so in this case. Just dumb opportunism as per usual.

 

[Big Phil]

Do Wings fans feel the 1998 Stars had a bad shake just as well as they did in 2009? Nieuwendyk wasn't hobbled, Marchment gave him a cheap shot on his knee in the 1st round. This meant Dallas was playing without their 2nd line center vs. Detroit in a series that went 6 games. Hey, I am just saying, if you want to complain you should be accurate and call it what it is by saying the Wings caught a lucky break in 1998 too.

 

[danincanada]

Do Wings fans feel the 1998 Stars had a bad shake just as well as they did in 2009? Nieuwendyk wasn't hobbled, Marchment gave him a cheap shot on his knee in the 1st round. This meant Dallas was playing without their 2nd line center vs. Detroit in a series that went 6 games. Hey, I am just saying, if you want to complain you should be accurate and call it what it is by saying the Wings caught a lucky break in 1998 too.

Nieuwendyk being injured for that series definitely hurt the Stars and benefited the Wings, no question. He won the CS the next year, too. If one is going to talk about that '98 series or ask why the Stars lost it has to be brought up and questioned.

But... there are many differences between those two situations. That '98 series only went 6 games so it wasn't as close, I don't recall the Stars having several other key players trying to play through injuries or being rushed into the series after surgery cause the league wanted to try something new last second. Missing one key player is far easier to overcome then having 1/3 of your lineup on the mend before a series even starts, and then having to deal with 3 games in 4 nights right off the bat.

 

[Sadekuuro]

That '98 series only went 6 games so it wasn't as close

It might well have ended in 5 if not for the worst playoff OT goal ever surrendered

 

[Big Phil]

Nieuwendyk being injured for that series definitely hurt the Stars and benefited the Wings, no question. He won the CS the next year, too. If one is going to talk about that '98 series or ask why the Stars lost it has to be brought up and questioned.

But... there are many differences between those two situations. That '98 series only went 6 games so it wasn't as close, I don't recall the Stars having several other key players trying to play through injuries or being rushed into the series after surgery cause the league wanted to try something new last second. Missing one key player is far easier to overcome then having 1/3 of your lineup on the mend before a series even starts, and then having to deal with 3 games in 4 nights right off the bat.

Look, I think with Nieuwendyk the Wings still win. I was just making a point. The Wings at that time had everything going for them and won a Cup when Osgood let in three goals from outside the blue line that spring. So with Nieuwendyk, they still win I think. But I was just pointing out the fact that he wasn't 80% or anything, he was completely out. That's worse than having a bunch of players hobbled, I think at least.

And yes we can always play the "what if" thing. We do it all of the time, it is what this board is all about. But I wouldn't downgrade the Wings' Cup win in 1998 either just because of Nieuwendyk. I think this is what the complaints people have of the sour grapes of Wings fans in 2009. It isn't just "Oh man, I wish so and so was playing at his best" it is more like "You never would have won and there should be an asterisk on that Cup win". See the difference?

 

[Syckle78]

I wish my fellow wings fans would let this go. We made 6 finals winning 4. We got thoroughly beaten in one and lost a close one with the bad luck of injuries against us. It happens, we experienced more success than most sports fans do in their entire lives across all sports. I can understand fans not letting go over losing a close series with some key injuries if they've never won,nuck fans for example. But,man,I just don't feel any disappointed or care about the leagues decision too much. We got ours.

 

[Big Phil]

I wish my fellow wings fans would let this go. We made 6 finals winning 4. We got thoroughly beaten in one and lost a close one with the bad luck of injuries against us. It happens, we experienced more success than most sports fans do in their entire lives across all sports. I can understand fans not letting go over losing a close series with some key injuries if they've never won,nuck fans for example. But,man,I just don't feel any disappointed or care about the leagues decision too much. We got ours.

The thing is, they weren't even as depleted with injuries in 2009 as the Pens are in this current postseason in 2017. Lidstrom, Hossa, Rafalski, and then for the most part Datsyuk all were at least playing. You are telling me the Pens wouldn't want Kris Letang on the ice even if he is half as good? Of course. But they don't. I think there is a difference between having players play with big injuries and being hobbled than having them not play at all. I'll take the former. I don't know if the Pens will still win the Cup - because it still wouldn't shock me - but either way it is worse not having players than having them hurt. Schultz, Rust and Hornqvist are among the names not playing in Game 3 tonight. Throw in the already injured Pens watching from the box seats and you have a lot of players not in the line up. At least the Wings were playing in 2009 with a full line up.

 

[GMR]

Do Wings fans feel the 1998 Stars had a bad shake just as well as they did in 2009? Nieuwendyk wasn't hobbled, Marchment gave him a cheap shot on his knee in the 1st round. This meant Dallas was playing without their 2nd line center vs. Detroit in a series that went 6 games. Hey, I am just saying, if you want to complain you should be accurate and call it what it is by saying the Wings caught a lucky break in 1998 too.

Look, I think with Nieuwendyk the Wings still win. I was just making a point. The Wings at that time had everything going for them and won a Cup when Osgood let in three goals from outside the blue line that spring. So with Nieuwendyk, they still win I think. But I was just pointing out the fact that he wasn't 80% or anything, he was completely out. That's worse than having a bunch of players hobbled, I think at least.

And yes we can always play the "what if" thing. We do it all of the time, it is what this board is all about. But I wouldn't downgrade the Wings' Cup win in 1998 either just because of Nieuwendyk. I think this is what the complaints people have of the sour grapes of Wings fans in 2009. It isn't just "Oh man, I wish so and so was playing at his best" it is more like "You never would have won and there should be an asterisk on that Cup win". See the difference?

Nothing was stopping the Wings from winning the Cup in 1998. Not even Chris Osgood.

 

[Big Phil]

Nothing was stopping the Wings from winning the Cup in 1998. Not even Chris Osgood.

In retrospect, probably not. But when you look at their postseason in 1998 it wasn't as sure a thing as you think. I think they were the best team but they struggled with Phoenix. They were down 2-1 in the series and in Game 4 were down 1-0. Yes they deserved it and were by far the better team. Sometimes even great teams stumble before they recover (1982 Isles vs. Pittsburgh). And I think Detroit wins whether Nieuwendyk is playing in the Dallas series or not. But I am just saying, the way this thread has gone it would fit in perfectly well if you thought a 39-goal scorer and future Conn Smythe winner a year later could change things. Imagine if Stars fans said "Well, that Cup should have been ours as you got lucky Nieuwendyk was injured."

 

[GMR]

In retrospect, probably not. But when you look at their postseason in 1998 it wasn't as sure a thing as you think. I think they were the best team but they struggled with Phoenix. They were down 2-1 in the series and in Game 4 were down 1-0. Yes they deserved it and were by far the better team. Sometimes even great teams stumble before they recover (1982 Isles vs. Pittsburgh). And I think Detroit wins whether Nieuwendyk is playing in the Dallas series or not. But I am just saying, the way this thread has gone it would fit in perfectly well if you thought a 39-goal scorer and future Conn Smythe winner a year later could change things. Imagine if Stars fans said "Well, that Cup should have been ours as you got lucky Nieuwendyk was injured."

I see what you're saying, but this thread hasn't gone 10 pages just because of injuries. There's been a lot of talk about officiating and scheduling as well.

 

[daver]

I see what you're saying, but this thread hasn't gone 10 pages just because of injuries. There's been a lot of talk about officiating and scheduling as well.

This thread has gone 10 pages because a few posters keep repeating that injuries cost the Wings their Cup or the scheduling was unfair because the Wings were injured.

If the Wings don't have injuries or the NHL did not release a tentative SCF start date then change it, this thread doesn't exist.

 

[daver]

Interested to hear from Red Wings fans whether this year's ECF should have started later given the Pens' injury issues.

 

[Big Phil]

Interested to hear from Red Wings fans whether this year's ECF should have started later given the Pens' injury issues.

would have been nice for the Pens, but no, they started pretty quickly as they usually do. The Ducks started 2 days after Game 7 vs. the Oilers while the Pens started three days later. They don't get Letang back either way of course but man is this team ever snake bit with injuries. By that I mean players actually not playing and out of the lineup, not ones who are hobbled but still good enough to play.

 

[GMR]

This thread has gone 10 pages because a few posters keep repeating that injuries cost the Wings their Cup or the scheduling was unfair because the Wings were injured.

If the Wings don't have injuries or the NHL did not release a tentative SCF start date then change it, this thread doesn't exist.

Scratch that, this thread has actually gone 20 pages. I don't know if anything needs to be repeated. I said my peace early on in this thread, but it's definitely kicking a dead horse by now. No one will change their mind.

 

[daver]

Interested to hear from Red Wings fans whether this year's ECF should have started later given the Pens' injury issues.

Just came back to hear the sounds of the crickets.

 

[Epsilon]

Just came back to hear the sounds of the crickets.

Did the NHL abruptly change the start dates of any series this year? No? You're question is an irrelevant red herring, like most of your posts.

 

[danincanada]

Did the NHL abruptly change the start dates of any series this year? No? You're question is an irrelevant red herring, like most of your posts.

Exactly, and every finals schedule that has come after '09 just displays how strange it was. In '09 there were 16 days from after the CF's finished to game 7 of the finals due to a heavily front loaded first 3 or 4 games. This year it will be 20 days if the finals goes 7. So basically the beat up Red Wings in '09 were "rewarded" this changed schedule for finishing off the Hawks early, and got to play a fresher team with far less injuries. The beat up Pens in '17 get 4 more days off for going 7 against the Sens (they are also fortunate that the Preds have their own injury issues). Makes no sense and never will. It's not how things have worked before or after '09, which makes it a very strange and unique schedule revision by the NHL. Being disingenuous about what actually happened won't change that fact.

 

[GMR]

Games 1 and 2 of the 2017 Finals should be on Saturday and Sunday. I'm sure that won't affect a beat up and battered Pens team if the series is a long one.

 

[member 51464]

Games 1 and 2 of the 2017 Finals should be on Saturday and Sunday. I'm sure that won't affect a beat up and battered Pens team if the series is a long one.

If the Pens were guaranteed to be up 2-0 in the series following this weekend, then I imagine they'd take that.

 

[GMR]

If the Pens were guaranteed to be up 2-0 in the series following this weekend, then I imagine they'd take that.

Of course they would, though the problem is that fatigue eventually sets in. It's like getting into a fight at the end of your shift. You may do all right in the beginning, but if it's a long fight, you're going to gas out.

As I remember it, the Wings largely won games 1 and 2 because of Chris Osgood and some timely goals from Justin Abdelkader. However, as the series went on, I think the back to back games at the beginning became a problem for the Wings. They didn't have much left in the tank.

 

[daver]

Did the NHL abruptly change the start dates of any series this year? No? You're question is an irrelevant red herring, like most of your posts.

So you are still holding onto the conspiracy theory then.

Scheduling aside, can we also blame a potential Pens SCF loss on injuries?

Or if they win, can we put to bed the Wings injury excuse? Seems like the Pens reaching SCF on its own is proof that champions overcome adversity.

 

[Big Phil]

So you are still holding onto the conspiracy theory then.

Scheduling aside, can we also blame a potential Pens SCF loss on injuries?

Or if they win, can we put to bed the Wings injury excuse? Seems like the Pens reaching SCF on its own is proof that champions overcome adversity.

Red Wings fans will hate to see that, but yeah, if they win the Cup in which they are still heavily favoured despite injuries then I would like to see that idea put to bed. They don't have a Norris-caliber defenseman in Letang for the entire playoffs. They are doing well with the "defense by committee" aspect though and their stars such as Malkin, Crosby and Kessel have stepped up, and then either one of Fleury or Murray. But I can't tell you how many times I've said to myself "Boy do they ever need Letang right now!" You can't replace him, and he's at 0% effectiveness right now because he isn't even in the line up. It isn't as if he is nursing an injury and still playing.

You just don't hear this stuff from the eventual champions. Would we even know how battered the 1983 Islanders were if we never heard that Gretzky/Lowe story about them walking past the dressing room? Probably not. With the losing teams you hear it, the winning teams you don't.

 

[Epsilon]

So you are still holding onto the conspiracy theory then.

I didn't say anything about a conspiracy theory. I pointed out something that actually happened in one situation and has not happened in another which renders the two incomparable.

Scheduling aside, can we also blame a potential Pens SCF loss on injuries?

Sure, if you want to. Just like some Pens fans were doing during the Washington series after the hit on Crosby. And after game 6 of the Ottawa series. I don't really see the value in setting up pre-excuses to things that haven't happened yet, but to each his own.

Or if they win, can we put to bed the Wings injury excuse? Seems like the Pens reaching SCF on its own is proof that champions overcome adversity.

Something that happens in 2017 is more than a bit irrelevant to things that happened in 2009 in my opinion, but YMMV.

 

[GMR]

Red Wings fans will hate to see that, but yeah, if they win the Cup in which they are still heavily favoured despite injuries then I would like to see that idea put to bed. They don't have a Norris-caliber defenseman in Letang for the entire playoffs. They are doing well with the "defense by committee" aspect though and their stars such as Malkin, Crosby and Kessel have stepped up, and then either one of Fleury or Murray. But I can't tell you how many times I've said to myself "Boy do they ever need Letang right now!" You can't replace him, and he's at 0% effectiveness right now because he isn't even in the line up. It isn't as if he is nursing an injury and still playing.

You just don't hear this stuff from the eventual champions. Would we even know how battered the 1983 Islanders were if we never heard that Gretzky/Lowe story about them walking past the dressing room? Probably not. With the losing teams you hear it, the winning teams you don't.

It won't be put to bed because of the scheduling difference between 2009 and 2017 and because the Penguins have not faced anyone as good as the 2009 Ducks or the 2009 Penguins during this playoff run. Mostly underdog teams that came out of nowhere and a perennial underachiever in Washington.