How can a guy be 15 times a Norris trophy finalist and never win a Hart?

[Crosby2010]

I guess you can look at his closest years. 1987, 1990 and 1991.

1987 he finishes 2nd. I think we all agree this was Gretzky's in a cakewalk. It was the last season where his assists alone would win the scoring title, and he still led the NHL in goals, all while on the best team in the NHL. Bourque was a distant 2nd, but a legit 2nd, and well ahead of Mike Liut who was 3rd. 1991 he finishes 4th. This was Hull's year and you can argue Gretzky deserved it just as much. Belfour comes out of nowhere to finish 3rd. There were just some storylines that gained attention and Bourque wasn't it. But he also didn't have the better year than those guys. Maybe Belfour.

Onto 1990. You can say he was robbed because the Oilers writer that inexplicably didn't have him on the ballot (if I recall). I can understand that, but let's not discount Messier's season. 129 points on a post-Gretzky Oilers team. Did Moose get more votes than he should have? I don't know, they loved the storylines around him, same as 1992 with the Rangers. Strange how they had the same 1st place votes and Bourque had more 2nd place votes but Messier had more 3rd place votes. That's just how it shook down.

1994 is another year that it wouldn't have been outlandish to see him win - he finished 6th - but again you have Fedorov's big year and two insane years by goalies with Hasek and Beezer. This was a good chance for him to do it without Gretzky or Messier or Lemieux in the way but there just was someone better and more fitting that year.

Paul Coffey never won the Hart. Robinson, Potvin, Kelly, Lidstrom never did either. How about this? Neither did Harvey.

 

[The Panther]

Onto 1990. You can say he was robbed because the Oilers writer that inexplicably didn't have him on the ballot (if I recall).

Just to be clear, six writers left Bourque off the ballot. (There were three total voters from the Edmonton area.)

 

[Crosby2010]

Just to be clear, six writers left Bourque off the ballot. (There were three total voters from the Edmonton area.)

All I can ask is why? How is the Norris winner not considered top 10? Especially the well rounded game he had. That year in 1990 didn't have a lot of guys that were clear Hart contenders. Mario missed enough time to not get consideration. Gretzky "only" had 142 points and the Kings regressed that year. Yzerman had a great year but the Wings missed the playoffs. Roy had a great year too but not quite Hart-worthy. Hull scored 72 goals but had Oates too. So really it was a two-horse race with Messier and Bourque. They both checked off all of the boxes that year. How does the Norris winner on the 1st place team not get on literally every ballot?

 

[WingsFan95]

Honestly though Orr should have won at least two more Harts himself. It's rather more justifiable to me seeing as how he lost to Gretz, Mario, Fedorov in his Golden year and Brett Hull in his 86 goal season no?

This had me looking up his non-Norris winning seasons where Gretzky wasn't a factor.

Unfortunately there aren't any to choose from in the later 90s as even in 95-96 you have Mario again. It is what it is, circumstantial. Although in terms of value I DO think Bourque could have been argued over Gretzky considering again, value to the team.

 

[The Panther]

All I can ask is why? How is the Norris winner not considered top 10? Especially the well rounded game he had. That year in 1990 didn't have a lot of guys that were clear Hart contenders. Mario missed enough time to not get consideration. Gretzky "only" had 142 points and the Kings regressed that year. Yzerman had a great year but the Wings missed the playoffs. Roy had a great year too but not quite Hart-worthy. Hull scored 72 goals but had Oates too. So really it was a two-horse race with Messier and Bourque. They both checked off all of the boxes that year. How does the Norris winner on the 1st place team not get on literally every ballot?

I don't know the answer, but remember that five years earlier, when Gretzky had 208 points and a +100, some hockey-genius voted Brian Sutter with his 1st place vote. Last year, when Connor McDavid lead the NHL in goals and assists (extremely rare), and scored the most points in 27 years, another genius gave him his 5th-place Hart vote.

But, the real reason is probably—as I noted earlier in the thread—because the Norris exists, so some voters don't easily vote for defencemen.

It would be interesting to see the ballots of those six voters from 1990 and see who their three choices. My guess is that most or all of them voted Bourque for the Norris but didn't put any Dman on the Hart ballot.

 

[jigglysquishy]

In 1989-90 there were 63 voters

All 63 voters had him 1st in Norris voting, but one voted for Paul Coffey ahead of him in all star voting.

All 63 voters voted for Messier for Hart, but two didn't vote him top 3 for centre all star. One left him off the ballot completely while one voted for him at left wing.

One voter left Roy off their all star ballot.

Four voters left Gretzky off their all star ballot.

One voter voted Brett Hull at left wing.

 

[The Panther]

Yeah, I mean it's weird sometimes.

The year that Pronger (Dman) actually did win the Hart, 12 voters didn't vote him for their top three choices. (Also, some idiot voted Owen Nolan 1st that year... WTF?)

 

[jigglysquishy]

You can pretty much pick any year and there's at least one odd vote.

Carey Price winning the Hart. One voter voted Dubnyk ahead in AS voting.

Ovechkin scored 65 goals and someone left him off their AS ballot while giving Zetterberg a 1st place vote.

Gretzky broke the goals, assists, and point record in the same season while winning a unanimous Hart. 5 voters didn't give him a 1st place in the AS voting.

 

[MadLuke]

(Also, some idiot voted Owen Nolan 1st that year... WTF?)

Considering who won the duel in the playoff maybe they saw something

 

[Crosby2010]

1982 Norris was weird. Ken Morrow got a 1st place vote and so did Kevin Lowe. I know that Wilson won the Norris and there wasn't those options of great seasons like 1984 or so when Langway won it and all of Potvin, Coffey and Bourque could have snagged it. But it wasn't that bad of a year where all of the sudden Ken Morrow is considered to have been the best defenseman. Potvin missed 20 games that year or else he probably wins it, but even so, how could anyone watching the Islanders mistake Morrow as their best d-man that year?

 

[Run the Gauntlet]

Total goals on-ice for 1990

Bourque: 170 on for 61% of team goals, 4th place.
Messier: 159 on for 51% of team goals, 9th place.
Bourque wins this one.

Now Messier had more points, so what did Bourque do on defense that merits a Hart?

 

[MadLuke]

Total goals on-ice for 1990

Bourque: 170 on for 61% of team goals, 4th place.
Messier: 159 on for 51% of team goals, 9th place.

Bourque was only on the ice for only 97 goal against that year .... seem extraordinary, a the bruins had a good ratio of powerplay for vs against, but still.....

The teams was +57, Bourque was +73 if is role on the PK was close to be in similar share size than the PP that quite something.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Bourque was only on the ice for only 97 goal against that year .... seem extraordinary, a the bruins had a good ratio of powerplay for vs against, but still.....

The teams was +57, Bourque was +73 if is role on the PK was close to be in similar share size than the PP that quite something.

Only 64 of the 97 against were ES

 

[Staniowski]

Bruins' Bourque out until playoffs​

Mar 24, 1994

Still reeling from a season-ending knee injury to Cam Neely, the Boston Bruins took another hit Wednesday.

Defenseman Ray Bourque was diagnosed with a sprained medial collateral ligament in his right knee. The good news: He is expected to return in time for the playoffs.

Bourque, a leading candidate for the Hart Trophy for league most valuable player, was hurt Tuesday in a 5-3 loss at Quebec.

He was examined Wednesday by Dr. Bertram Zarins at Massachusetts General Hospital.

On Wednesday, Bourque was at practice, wearing a knee immobilizer brace like that worn by Neely, who tore his medial collateral ligament.

"While we cannot place a definite time frame on rehabilitation, we fully expect him to return for the start of the playoffs," Bruins general manager Harry Sinden said.

Bourque leads NHL defensemen in scoring and is eighth overall in scoring, with 20 goals and 71 assists.

source


i don’t know that he was definitely going to win the hart that year, what with magic years from fedorov, hasek, and beezer, but there was a chance, as bourque was on pace to finally score 100 pts. if he hadn’t missed the last eleven games, he would have finished with 105 if he’d kept up exactly the same pace. it’s hard for a guy as consistently great as bourque to break through and truly contend for a hart unless something special happens, like leading his team in pts by 20+ pts like in 1987 or winning the presidents trophy like in 1990, but maybe 105 pts does the trick.

In '94, without injuries to anybody, Neely is likely getting more Hart votes than Bourque, even if Bourque scores 100 points. That was near the peak of Neelymania.

 

[Staniowski]

Re: 1990

Messier was probably at his very best that season, and there were many hockey people who thought Messier had caught up to Gretzky as an overall player, and even surpassed him. Messier's skating and power game really were advantages over Gretzky as defenses improved in the League.

Bourque was also excellent, though.