Hopefully Canada doesn't go the way of Sweden

Discussion in 'International Tournaments' started by Rob, Jan 5, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Rob

    Rob Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    6,915
    Likes Received:
    288
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Location:
    New Brunswick
    Home Page:
    I remember back in the 90's when Sweden won a string of Silver medals. Almost every other year many hockey writers picked Sweden to win but they just fell short. The '94 WJC comes to mind. Forsberg and company lost to a Canadian team that was predicted to finish out of the medals.

    Since then Sweden has done terrible at this tournament. I just wonder if it is due to a lack of talent, or if it is due to a lack of confidence in their junior program.

    Whatever it is, I hope that Canada isn't bitten by the same bug.
     
  2. Zine

    Zine Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2002
    Messages:
    10,789
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Rostov-on-Don
    Canada has absolutely nothing to worry about. While they haven't won gold since '97, they're still producing mega-talent.
     
  3. leafaholix*

    leafaholix* Guest

    You can't compare the two.
     
  4. I don't like 7 years without gold anymore than any other Canadian hockey fan....but to be worried at all about our hockey program is ludicrous. Through this "drought", Canada has kept on producing top notch hockey players for the NHL. This is where Sweden has tailed off, which translates into the reason for their U20 dissapointments. Sweden has been teaching systems instead of skills, and Canada has gone in the opposite direction.

    The last Swedish draft pick to have a major impact (for lack of a better term) on the NHL was Matthias Ohlund, and he was drafted in 1994. I won't even start a list of top notch players produced by Canada since then.
     
  5. Kronblom

    Kronblom Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Messages:
    2,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Stockholm
    Henrik Zetterberg?
     
  6. leafaholix*

    leafaholix* Guest

    Yes, and soon... Alexander Steen and Mikael Tellqvist.
     
  7. chicpea*

    chicpea* Guest

    Andreas Dackell ?!;)
     
  8. Predatore

    Predatore Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    6,979
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    131
    Occupation:
    Founder / Business Manager
    Location:
    Sweden
    Home Page:
    Sweden had 3 strong years with Forsberg, Näslund etc. If you look back you notice we have never been a power house when it comes to junior hockey. When we were best in the 90's very few Swedish players were drafted and made the NHL. Now we don't have the same superstars but more players get drafted and more players make it to the NHL.

    I personally don't care much about Sweden winning the WJC or not but more about producing quality players. Also, for some reasons Swedish players always develop their games late, very often when they are over 21-24 years of age.. which is one reason why few Swedish players move over as early as the Russians and the Czechs.

    Still, I must agree that WJC-results quite often reflect the amount of future stars, but not always. I hope that the Swedish 86's and 87's, two age groups that have been considered the best ones to come out of Sweden for a long while will do better than the last age groups in the WJC.

    Sweden is not a country that "should" play in the final (there is no way of comparing Sweden to Canada and Russia.. and now maybe the US?) but we definitely should be a team to make the medal round and the semifinal once in a while.
     
  9. gb701

    gb701 Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2003
    Messages:
    490
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Home Page:
    Copied from Smoke Eater on another thread:

    "First of all...Congrats to USA for a great tourney and way to go boys for a great effort to win the silver!

    We (Canadians) should'nt feel too back. We have been very successful in international hockey of late.

    Last Olympic Games - GOLD
    Last World Cup - SILVER
    Last World Championships - GOLD
    Last World Jr Championships - SILVER
    Last U18 Championships - GOLD
    Last U17 Challenge - GOLD,SILVER and BRONZE


    Not too bad??"

    The U17 and U18 performances should answer your fears. We aren't exactly in the tank here.
     
  10. Stephen

    Stephen Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2002
    Messages:
    44,681
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    Trophy Points:
    214
    Home Page:
    Do you also ever consider that Canada would win the gold medal every year if not for the fact that our WJC program is robbed of talent every year when NHL teams choose to promote their prospects? In the past few years Canada has been deprived of guys like Spezza, Bouwmeester, Horton, Weiss, Staal, etc. Imagine what those close gold medal games would have been like if we had these guys playing for us.
     
  11. Mathletic

    Mathletic Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2002
    Messages:
    15,719
    Likes Received:
    286
    Trophy Points:
    199
    Location:
    Ste-Foy
    here it goes again: Canada is on the downfall ... ... ... **** they lost by one goal in each of the last 3 years, that's not the end of the world, look at the number of young canadians in the NHL and tell me that there is more talent coming out of Canada ... Nash leading scorer, Bergeron of the more valuable player for Boston, Barret Jackman is excellent and the list goes on ... IMO the WJC does not give a clear indication about the quality of a program

    Although the Canadian program is not perfect, it's still the best no matter what you say
     
  12. Kootenay1

    Kootenay1 Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2002
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Let's not forget the incredible crop of Canadian rookies in the NHL this year. 14 of the top 20 in rookie scoring so far are Canadians including the top four. These are also some of the youngest rookies like Bergeron, Staal, Stajan, Lupul and Horton. All under 21.
     
  13. VOB

    VOB Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    1,692
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    36
    Location:
    Michigan
    Home Page:
    Rob, how long have you been a fan of hockey? If you have been a fan of the game for quite sometime than you ought to know that Canada is still considered the nation to beat at any type of international tournament and this will not change any time soon.

    The U.S. finally won and I am happy and I happier that on this board at least (can't say the same about the U.S. college hockey board, but that board is WAY inferior to this one anyway!) we Amercians have been for the most part gracious winners because we all know and understand hockey and just how good of team Canada was this. This of course makes our victory the more sweeter.

    The truth of the matter is Rob that had Canada been able to ice its best possible team, it would have truely been another miracle if the U.S. won. Can you imagine this same Canadian team with Rick Nash on it and supported by Eric Stall, Bergeron and Horton?

    At the start of this tourney I predicted that Canada would finish fourth, not because of a lack of talent but rather because of a lack of experience and age. They proved me wrong. I also predicted that if there is an NHL lock out next year then Canada will win next year's tourney with ease. They will not prove me wrong this time. Canada will be amazing next year.

    There is nothing wrong with Canadian hockey, in fact Rob Team Ontario (just one province of Canada, albeit the largest one) just captured gold at the recent U-17 world hockey challenge. The silver was taken by Team Pacific, the bronze by Quebec and the U.S. finished fourth.
     
  14. Rob

    Rob Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    6,915
    Likes Received:
    288
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Location:
    New Brunswick
    Home Page:
    I wasn't suggesting that Canada's lack of a gold medal was a result as of a lack of talent. By making the comparison with Sweden I was raising the question of whether or not this would have a negative psycholocial impact on Canada's junior program. Especially if next years possible "dream team" does not win a gold.

    Just a possibility.
     
  15. Stephen

    Stephen Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2002
    Messages:
    44,681
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    Trophy Points:
    214
    Home Page:
    Losing repeatedly in a single tournament is not going to derail an entire country's developmental system.

    In Sweden's case, they were developing a lot of young talent in the late 1980's and early 90's with the likes of Sundin, Forsberg, Lidstrom, Renberg, Naslund, etc. but outside of that crop, they never developed elite hockey players like that, and they haven't since, as you can sort of tell with where Swedes were drafted before 1989 and where they've been picked after 1993.
     
  16. Sweden's problems at the U20 level are not psychological, they are developmental.
     
  17. Kronblom

    Kronblom Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2002
    Messages:
    2,005
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Stockholm
    The loss of all players who plays in foreign countries these days have something to do with it. There weren´t that many swedes playing in North America and other european countries 10-15 years ago as there are now.

    Swedes playing juniorhockey in Canada wasn´t even on the map (using a swedish expression).
     
  18. Vlad The Impaler

    Vlad The Impaler Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    12,071
    Likes Received:
    227
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Montreal
    No I don't consider it, because

    1-It is presumptuous and arrogant

    2-Hockey is not won on paper

    3-Other nations (notably Russia) go through the same pains anyway

    Please, consider that those teams which allowed Canadian to go this year were the Wild and Pittsburgh. Brent Burns got mixed reviews and amusingly enough,

    YOU have been whining and moaning on various threads about how Fleury was such a HUGE part of why Canada lost in the finals. Isn't M-A Fleury this really hyped prospect who was as you put it "promoted in the NHL". You know, one of those talents that was almost "stole away from the WJC by the NHL?

    What's up with that?

    You put two TEAMS on the ice, the better one wins, sometimes luck plays a part. That's pretty much the game of hockey. Yes, talent counts. Yes, playing in the NHL is great. But you still have to beat a team as a team. There's no way, absolutely NO WAY of knowing Canada would win it every year. In fact, Canada still sends one of the better team on paper most years and they don't win it.
     
  19. Stephen

    Stephen Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2002
    Messages:
    44,681
    Likes Received:
    1,563
    Trophy Points:
    214
    Home Page:
    Well nothing is 100% guaranteed, but you'd have to admit, Canada's chances of winning the gold medal in each of the years between 1998 and 2004 would have been increased dramatically if the likes of Thornton, Marleau, Lecavalier, Bouwmeester, etc etc. had been on their rosters during those years. Every year, Canada is the team that loses the most junior talent to the NHL considering the fact that Europeans come over later for the most part, and college kids from the states are avaliable. What do you think the chances of winning a one goal game would have been if we had extra guys like Rick Nash, a 20 goal scorer in the NHL, along with Nathan Horton and Eric Staal? It wouldn't have been a sure bet, but Canada would have been the overwhelming favorites.
     
  20. Zine

    Zine Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2002
    Messages:
    10,789
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Rostov-on-Don
    I agree that Canada could have done better from 98-04 had NHLers been made available....but looking back, I think it only honestly hindered them from winning gold twice ('99 and this year).
     
  21. Dr_Chimera*

    Dr_Chimera* Guest

    And Canada played great both of those years - maybe they just got beat by better opponents... Shocking isn't it? ;)
     
  22. Vlad The Impaler

    Vlad The Impaler Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    12,071
    Likes Received:
    227
    Trophy Points:
    186
    Location:
    Montreal
    Yes, I like it on paper. I predicted gold for Canada based on paper and I would have been more confident had these players been chosen. I just don't think the NHL is hurting Canada all that much throughout the years.

    Players like Kovalchuk and (I believe) Chistov missed WJCs in past years. Russia also is heavy on politics and they tend to send teams with one or two guys not making it who maybe should have been (although you could also say the same for Canada).

    Personally, I've always thought Canada puts too much stock in "NHL qualities" when selecting their teams. They should take good JUNIOR PLAYERS as opposed to goo potential NHLers. Maybe take a flyer on guys like Corey Lockey or Gamache. At least get them an invite.

    Players who are good potential NHLers aren't always the best junior players. I hold the same sentiment regarding NHL-experienced players. P-M Bouchard had a so-so tournament last year. And while lots of players probably couldn't keep up with the Wild like Burns does, I think several of them were more effective than him this year in the WJCs.

    Lots of experienced NHLers or top notch NHL prospects have had subpar tournaments over the years. At the very least unremarkable. Dany Heatley is a good example. He simply wasn't dominating in the WJCs but a few months later he started his NHL career and none of the players who were shining a few months earlier could have done what he did.
     
  23. teme

    teme Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2002
    Messages:
    1,137
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Helsinki, Finland
    Home Page:
    Yes, and this applies to big boys tournaments too. Many good NHL players have and will suck big time on international ice. NHL is a totally different game from international hockey. NHL rewards concistency, the regular season and Stanley Cup playoffs are an endurance test above everything else. In the tournament you just have to get hot for few games. The rules are different ofcourse, but most importantly abcense of red line and bigger ice means that the whole five man unit has to move and transition together very fast to be succesful. Something I notice watching guys coming back from North America to play in Europe is that they have picked a nasty habit of standing pat, partly to conserve energy needed due to a tighter schedule I guess (no one plays 30 min a night here for a good reason) but also because they've forgotten the fundamentals of Euro game: skate, skate, skate.

    This years U20 Canadian team had horrible transition from offence to defence, there was enough space to land a plane between the dmen and forwards, and that was already evident in round-robin play. Further contributing to the problem was that they weren't really tested and thus forced to make adjustments before the final. So it wasn't really a problem with the Canadian players being slow as such, but they moved slowly as a team, and while I guess couple more speedsters would've helped, I would put most of the blame on coaching.
     
  24. Rob

    Rob Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    6,915
    Likes Received:
    288
    Trophy Points:
    169
    Location:
    New Brunswick
    Home Page:
    I knew that was a problem for the Eastern European countries but I didn't realize that Sweden was losing young players to the CHL.

    Does anyone know approximately how many Swedes there are in the CHL?
     
  25. Predatore

    Predatore Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2002
    Messages:
    6,979
    Likes Received:
    8
    Trophy Points:
    131
    Occupation:
    Founder / Business Manager
    Location:
    Sweden
    Home Page:
    seven, this season
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"