HOH Top 60 Defensemen of All-Time (Preliminary and General Discussion)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I'm fine with allowing ties in the extremely rare instances that the votes work out that way. That's how the original (2008) version of the Top 100 list was compiled. Thoughts?

 

[overpass]

I'm fine with allowing ties in the extremely rare instances that the votes work out that way. That's how the original (2008) version of the Top 100 list was compiled. Thoughts?

I'm OK with ties.

If we decide we want to break ties, what about going back to the ballots, looking only at the two players in question, and breaking the tie in favour of the player who ranks higher on more ballots?

 

[overpass]

A personal note as I've started thinking about how I would make an initial list. It is VERY difficult to rank the top 80 defensemen ever. Once I got past 30 it really starts being troublesome, I can't imagine trying to separate say, #75 from #74. Does anyone have any tips? Do you guys divide your lists into blocks and then rank players individually whitin blocks? I'm finding this way too complex.

In the past I've placed players in blocks and ranked within that.

Once I had a rough list, I kept coming back to it to make a few 1 on 1 comparisons and try to get individual players right.

It's definitely wasn't easy when I did lists in the past, and this one will be even more difficult. Keep in mind that Round 1 lists don't have to be perfect, as we have Round 2 for that. The important thing is that the starting lists are unbiased, especially for players who are harder to rank.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

A list of scoring finishes compared to other defencemen, i.e. how many times was each defenceman the leading defenceman scorer, how many times in the top 2, in the top 3, top 5 and top 10.

I've asked hockey-reference to list these - they've taken a couple of my suggestions, but not that one.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Defensive defensemen really get screwed at the end of season voting - guys like Serge Savard and Bob Goldham have been described as the best defensive players ever, but you would never know it looking at their Norris and all-star team votes.

I would love to see players who excelled defensively highlighted.

For instance, I believe Derian Hatcher was a better defenseman than Phil Housley.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I would be interested in hearing/learning more about Harry Cameron if anyone has any info on him. I am not quite sure how to evaluate him.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If we decide we want to break ties, what about going back to the ballots, looking only at the two players in question, and breaking the tie in favour of the player who ranks higher on more ballots?

I really like this idea. In the rare case that points are tied after Round 2, the player who was ranked higher vs the other player on the majority of ballots will take the spot. In the extremely rare case that they are still tied, then it will remain a tie (I doubt this will happen).

If nobody has an objection, I'll add this to the rules.

 

[overpass]

Eddie Gerard

Here's something on Eddie Gerard. I had him on my team in the last ATD, so I've researched him and am familiar with his career.

Gerard's stat line doesn't describe his value very well, and there were no seasonal awards given out during his career, so we need to go to the opinion of his contemporaries.

For your convenience, an excerpt from his Legends of Hockey profile:

Rarely in hockey history has a defenseman exhibited as high a level of play and gentlemanly conduct as Eddie Gerard. While playing a position that constantly required physical confrontation, he performed with superior efficiency but in sportsmanlike fashion. Gerard was a fine skater with superior puckhandling capabilities who was a fair match for any adversary at either end of the ice, while his leadership skills made him the ideal captain for the Stanley Cup-winning Ottawa Senators and a fine coach with the Cup champion Montreal Maroons in 1926.

Gerard first signed with hockey's Ottawa Senators in 1913-14, a transaction that reaped many benefits for the club. He began as a forward, playing on a line with Jack Darragh and Skene Ronan, and didn't switch to defense for another three years. Following this positional shift, Gerard established himself as a tower of strength on his squad's defense while serving as the team's inspirational heart. He formed an outstanding defensive partnership with George Boucher and was the natural choice for team captain.

Gerard captained the version of the Senators that was dubbed the "Super Six" as a tribute to their winning three Stanley Cups in four years between 1920 and 1923. During the 1920 Stanley Cup series against the Seattle Metropolitans, Gerard formed an impenetrable defensive wall with Sprague Cleghorn in his own zone and scored on a dramatic end-to-end rush in the deciding game. The Senators retained the Cup the following year in an emotionally charged series versus the PCHA champion Vancouver Millionaires. In one of the most keenly watched Stanley Cup encounters of the 1920s, Ottawa triumphed in the fifth and deciding game with a 2-1 score.

King Clancy thought extremely highly of Eddie Gerard. From Clancy's autobiography:

Before I'm finished with this narrative, maybe you'll be thinking that far too often I say this player was great and that player was great; that I build too many pedestals for these stars of the past to stand on. But there's no question about Gerard being a fabulous hockey player. They talk about Doug Harvey and Eddie Shore and one or two other legendary defencemen. Gerard was in that class--a brilliant skater and a fine team man.

Several other hockey men also considered Gerard to be among the best of his time.

Cyclone Taylor (Hockey Pictorial, February 1956)

The second "dream team" dates from the start of the modern era to 1944. Tiny Thompson, goal. Eddie Shore and Eddie Gerard, defense. Howie Morenz, Syl Apps and Bill Cook, his forward line.

Cyclone picked two centers in Morenz and Apps but explained that by commenting "They would have been just as great playing wing as they were at center."

Red Dutton

Red Dutton...selects an all-star, all-time team, all-time only in the respect that he deals with players who have come and gone under the big toll of the NHL since he began to play. Dutton's team: Sprague Cleghorn, right defense; Eddie Gerard, left defense; Eddie Shore, No 2 right defense; Herb Gardiner, No 2 left defense...

Shorty Green

Goal: Georges Vezina
Defence: Sprague Cleghorn
Defence: Eddie Gerard
Centre: Frank Nighbor
Right wing: Bill Cook
Left wing: Aurel Joliat

Gerard and Cleghorn he regards as top defenceman for their ice generalship and thumping rearguard play.

Foster Hewitt:

Goal: Charlie Gardiner, Chicago Black Hawks in the early thirties. "A colorful holler guy. If somebody threw a hat on the ice, Gardiner'd wear it the whole game."
Defence: Eddie Shore, Boston Bruins 25 years ago. "Colorful, high-handed and hotheaded. A bull moose when you got his goat."
Defence: Eddie Gerard: "Great ice-leader and traffic director."
Centre: Howie Morenz, Montreal Canadians circa 1930. "Reeked with color. He'd electrify a crowd the minute he got the puck. A regular sputnik on skates."
Left Wing: Ted Lindsay, lately of Chicago and Detroit. "He scored, checked, and needled. Play with him and you play with dynamite."
Right Wing: Rocket Richard, Montreal immortal. "Put people in the rink and pucks in the net. He was the Babe Ruth, the home-run hitter of hockey."

Jim Coleman - 10 best players of all time:

Howie Morenz
Eddie Shore
Gordon Howe
Maurice Richard
Bobby Orr
Bobby Hull
Jean Beliveau
Milt Schmidt
Dit Clapper
Eddie Gerard - One must defer to the opinion of King Clancy and hockey historian Charles L. Coleman who insist that Gerard was the best. On Wednesday of this week, Clancy said "You can put Gerard's name at the very top of your list."

Quotes from Gerard's lengthy obituary in the Ottawa Citizen
Tommy Gorman on Gerard:

I admired Eddie Gerard more than any athlete I ever handled. He always gave all he had, was a great organizer, an exceptional team captain, and a fine sport. He was courageous and possessed a fighting-spirit that was hard to beat. He was the spark-plug of the famous Super-Six, which I consider the greatest team of all time. Eddie Gerard and Sprague Cleghorn, were in my opinion, the greatest defence in hockey.

Sprague Cleghorn on Gerard:

In my estimation, there was none better. You can have all your Shores and Conachers, and the others, but Eddie Gerard was in a class by himself. He knew just what to do and no one ever needed to coach him.

At the end of Vol. 1 of The Trail of the Stanley Cup the author, Charles L. Coleman, selected his all-star team for 1893-1926.

D: Harry Cameron, Sprague Cleghorn, Eddie Gerard, and Ernie Johnson

He selected Sprague Cleghorn and Ernie Johnson.

Gerard was also among the inaugural class of 12 players inducted to the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1945.

Taking a critical eye to the opinions above:

I'd put the least weight on Dutton's opinion. He was a very good friend of Gerard and gave the eulogy at Gerard's funeral.

The great hockey writer Jim Coleman admits he didn't see Gerard play, he's taking the word of Clancy and historian Charles Coleman. It probably means something that he bought what they were saying.

Cyclone Taylor, Shorty Green, and Foster Hewitt would all be independent sources who saw Gerard play.

Gorman and Cleghorn were being quoted just after Gerard's death, so take that into consideration.

Finally, it's also worth emphasizing Gerard's experience in the 1922 Stanley Cup Final, when Toronto was given the choice of any defenseman in hockey to replace the injured Harry Cameron in Game 4, and chose Gerard. Gerard played so well that Vancouver refused to allow him to play in Game 5.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Good Effort

Good effort Overpass with the Eddie Gerard presentation. Combined with the Frank Nighbor info plus the data about the other Ottawa dmen - Boucher and Clancy we have some re-evaluating to do about positions from the era covered.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Good info overpass.

 

[Iain Fyffe]

Here's something on Eddie Gerard. I had him on my team in the last ATD, so I've researched him and am familiar with his career.

I'm always surprised when Gerard isn't generally recognized as the great player he was.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Good stuff on Gerard. For whatever reason, HOH canon seems to place Sprague Cleghorn as the clearcut #1 defenseman of the generation between WW1 and consolidation, but reading first hand reports from the era, it really seems like opinions were split between him and Gerard.

Gerard probably got underrated by publications like Ultimate Hockey because his offensive stats, while pretty good, weren't as good as Cleghorn, Boucher, or Cameron.

Also of minor note for Gerard, he was inducted in the HHOF's prestigious inaugural class in 1945.

 

[RabbinsDuck]

Flash Hollet held the goal record for defensemen for almost 30 years until none other than Orr finally broke it - in more games played, I believe.

Just someone who warrants more consideration than he usually gets.

 

[Hardyvan123]

In the past I've placed players in blocks and ranked within that.

Once I had a rough list, I kept coming back to it to make a few 1 on 1 comparisons and try to get individual players right.

It's definitely wasn't easy when I did lists in the past, and this one will be even more difficult. Keep in mind that Round 1 lists don't have to be perfect, as we have Round 2 for that. The important thing is that the starting lists are unbiased, especially for players who are harder to rank.

Interesting. I'm going to work on my list and probably group guys in 5 or 10 player blocks then seriously look at their careers.

Honestly after the entire process I would have a slightly different list than the one I begin with.

To begin with my list will probably look a bit like a pyramid at the end if one looked at player start dates. not the order per say but the composition. Then I will look at how players after 60 rank and go through block by block to get a final list of 60 guys.

There is an assumption that there are more good players as the overall pool gets bigger but certain time periods will have ebbs and flows in the end as well.

Of course certain players records in certain eras or time periods will account for more players in some eras than others.

 

[overpass]

Flash Hollet held the goal record for defensemen for almost 30 years until none other than Orr finally broke it - in more games played, I believe.

Just someone who warrants more consideration than he usually gets.

The question is, how many of those goals did Hollett score as a defenseman? He played forward at times as well.

Leader-Post, Oct 22, 1940:

Good utility men are worth their weight in gold to a National Hockey League club, and Bill (Flash) Hollett of Boston Bruins is just about the best.

Hollett hasn't played the nets during the NHL season but he has played in every other position.

Edmonton Journal, Oct 19, 1940:

Manager Art Ross said he would play Frank Brimsek in goal, Dit Clapper, Jack Shewchuk, Desse Smith and Jack Crawford on defence, and use his three regular forward lines with Flash Hollet as utility player

See the boxscore from this Stanley Cup final game. Boston's starting lineup is listed as Brimsek, Shore, Portland, Pettinger, Hollett, Getliffe. Looks like Shore and Portland were on the blueline and Hollett was starting up front.

If Hollett played forward at times, that could contribute to him being underrated in all-star voting as a multi-position player, and overrated if you are considering his scoring numbers as a defenseman. It certainly doesn't disqualify Hollett from consideration. I just posted info on Eddie Gerard, who played forward for much of his career. But I at least would like to see something for Hollett beyond the scoring stats.

In general, when looking at scoring leaders among defensemen, it becomes pretty important to know who was actually a full-time defender and who was playing forward, whether part-time or full-time.

 

[seventieslord]

There is an assumption that there are more good players as the overall pool gets bigger but certain time periods will have ebbs and flows in the end as well.

yes. it's usually a fair assumption to make, but don't forget the ebbs and flows.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Shouldn't we disqualify rovers when it's impossible to know the % of their stats coming at defense?

 

[BenchBrawl]

How do we know how's going to participate? Is it open to everybody?

 

[tikkanen5rings*]

Teppo Numminen should maybe 60th in there just because of longetivity and bein allway reliable norm. But I doubt that many of you would put him in there.

e: ihave to work for real to morrow so perhaps I lay the bottle down and pick up a beer for a while.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I'm fine with allowing ties in the extremely rare instances that the votes work out that way. That's how the original (2008) version of the Top 100 list was compiled. Thoughts?

I think ties should be allowed. If the group's consensus is that two defensemen are equal, we shouldn't go out of our way to make up an arcane rule to break the tie just for the sake of breaking a tie.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

How do we know how's going to participate? Is it open to everybody?

Anyone who takes the time to put together a list in Round 1 can participate in Round 2 if that list is accepted.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Shouldn't we disqualify rovers when it's impossible to know the % of their stats coming at defense?

Rover really wasn't that similar to the position of modern defensemen. Guys who spent a significant portion of their careers as a defenseman (or the earlier positions of Point of Cover Point) are eligible. So if the rover spent significant time at point or cover point, he would be eligible.

Unfortunately, a pure rover like Cyclone Taylor is not going to be represented on these "by position" lists.

 

[Dreakmur]

Rover really wasn't that similar to the position of modern defensemen. Guys who spent a significant portion of their careers as a defenseman (or the earlier positions of Point of Cover Point) are eligible. So if the rover spent significant time at point or cover point, he would be eligible.

According to Newsy Lalonde, the rover position was basically the same as the centre position:

The rover was the seventh mn in the old type of hokey. He was behind the center man and he just stood there; he wasn't a scorer or defenseman. I never felt there was much difference betwee being a center and a rover.

I think most rovers went to centre when they abolished the position, so it makes sense.

Unfortunately, a pure rover like Cyclone Taylor is not going to be represented on these "by position" lists.

Cyclone Taylor is not a pure rover. He was a defenseman untill he was converted to forward in he PCHA.

He began as a defenseman in the East and when he came West my brother, Frank, said to him, "I'm going to make you the greatest center-ice man in history." The Cyclone laughed nad thought he was crazy, but Frank was right!

Cyclone Taylor was probably the best offensive defenseman in the world from 1906 to 1911. Lester also thought he was well-rounded, saying he had the speed of Morenz, the grace of Cook, the poke-check of Nighbor, and the shot of Phillips.

 

[Dreakmur]

Flash Hollet held the goal record for defensemen for almost 30 years until none other than Orr finally broke it - in more games played, I believe.

Just someone who warrants more consideration than he usually gets.

He played quite a bit of forward, so his records are not as impressive as they seem

 

[Dreakmur]

Finally, it's also worth emphasizing Gerard's experience in the 1922 Stanley Cup Final, when Toronto was given the choice of any defenseman in hockey to replace the injured Harry Cameron in Game 4, and chose Gerard. Gerard played so well that Vancouver refused to allow him to play in Game 5.

Just a minor correction, but Toronto had to select a defenseman from the NHL to replace Cameron.