HOH Top 50 European Non-NHL Players of All Time

[Reindl87]

First -- understand that I'm not saying Kuhnhackl isn't a great player. He's being compared to some of the greatest players of all time here, so everything is relative.

Cherry picking a couple of points of data that were posted in the discussion threads by the forumer Robert Gordon Orr

International scoring data:

Player | Country | Years | Games | Goals | Assists | Points
1.Aleksander Maltsev |Soviet Union|1969-1983| 137|98| 95|

193​

|
2.Valeri Kharlamov |Soviet Union|1969-1980| 123|89| 102|

191​

|
3.Sergei Makarov |Soviet Union|1978-1991| 145|82| 100|

182​

|
4.Boris Mikhailov |Soviet Union|1969-1980| 120|108| 72|

180​

|
5.Vladimir Petrov |Soviet Union|1969-1981| 117|82| 85|

167​

|
6.Josef Maleček |Czechoslovakia|1922-1940| 80|97| 62|

159​

|
7.Sven ‘Tumba’ Johansson |Sweden|1952-1966| 97|86| 56|

142​

|
8.Vyacheslav Fetisov |Soviet Union/Russia|1977-1996| 139|51| 93|

144​

|
9.Vladimir Krutov |Soviet Union|1980-1989| 112|74| 64|

138​

|
10.Vladimir Martinec |Czechoslovakia|1970-1981| 118|68| 67|

135​

|
11.Vladimir Zábrodský |Czechoslovakia|1947-1956| 44|78| 44|

132​

|
12.Anatoli Firsov |Soviet Union|1964-1972| 67|66| 51|

117​

|
13.Jiři Holik |Czechoslovakia|1964-1977|142|59| 58|

117​

|
14.Veniamin Aleksandrov |Soviet Union|1957-1968| 76|68| 48|

116​

|
15.Riccardo ’Bibi’ Torriani |Switzerland|1928-1948| 69|62| 52|

114​

|
16.Václav Nedomanský |Czechoslovakia|1965-1974| 93|78| 32|

110​

|
17.Ville Peltonen |Finland|1994-2010| 145|46| 62|

108​

|
18.Vlastimil Bubnik |Czechoslovakia|1952-1964| 63|60| 45|

105​

|
19.Erich Kühnhackl |West Germany|1972-1985| 90|55| 50|

105​

|
20.Ivan Hlinka|Czechoslovakia|1970-1981| 108|53| 52|

105​

|
21.Uli Poltéra |Switzerland|1947-1954| 54|72| 31|

103​

|
22.Aleksander Yakushev |Soviet Union|1967-1979| 93|63| 40|

103​

|
23.Sergei Kapustin |Soviet Union|1974-1983| 97|63| 40|

103​

|
24.Teemu Selänne |Finland|1991-2014| 96|54| 48|

102​

|
25.Jaromir Jágr |Czechosl./Czech R.|1990-| 121|47| 55|

102​

|
26.Vladimir Vikulov |Soviet Union|1966-1976| 79|55| 46|

101​

|
27.Ronald ‘Sura Pelle’ Pettersson |Sweden|1955-1967| 87|52| 49|

99​

|
28.Vyacheslav Bykov |Soviet Union/Russia|1983-1995| 108|47| 50|

97​

|
29.Andrei Khomutov |Soviet Union/Russia|1981-1995| 122|45| 52|

97​

|
30.Ilya Kovalchuk |Russia|2002-| 111|44| 52|

96​

|
31.Vyacheslav Starshinov |Soviet Union|1961-1971| 79|64| 31|

95​

|
32.Mats Sundin |Sweden|1990-2006| 79|43| 51|

94​

|
33.Saku Koivu |Finland|1993-2010| 89|30| 64|

94​

|
34.Milan Nový |Czechoslovakia|1975-1982| 86|53| 40|

93​

|
35.Aleksei Kasatonov |Soviet Union|1980-1991| 125|28| 65|

93​

|
36.Nisse Nilsson |Sweden|1956-1967| 63|58| 34|

92​

|
37.Gerd Truntschka |W. Germany/Germany|1979-1993| 108|31| 59|

90​

|
38.Miroslav Å atan |Slovakia|1994-2014| 117|47| 42|

89​

|
39.Raimo Helminen|Finland|1984-2002| 140|18| 70|

88​

|
40.Konstantin Loktev |Soviet Union|1957-1966| 55|50| 36|

86​

|
41.Ulf Sterner |Sweden|1960-1973| 87|47| 39|

86​

|
42.Dieter Hegen |W. Germany/Germany|1982-1998| 147|55| 29|

84​

|
43.Vladimir Shadrin |Soviet Union|1970-1977| 71|41| 43|

84​

|
44.Igor Larionov |Soviet Union/Russia|1982-2002| 98|36| 47|

83​

|
45.Wayne Gretzky |Canada|1981-1998| 55|26| 56|

82​

|
46.Ferdinand ‘Pic’ Cattini |Switzerland|1933-1949| 60|53| 28|

81​

|
47.Tord Lundström |Sweden|1965-1976| 92|46| 34|

80​

|
48.Viktor Zhluktov |Soviet Union|1976-1983| 88|36| 44|

80​

|
49.Daniel Alfredsson|Sweden|1995-2014| 92|32| 47|

79​

|
50.Evgeny Malkin|Russia|2005-| 69|37| 40|

77​

|

So taking that data and translating it to PPG, and ONLY comparing Kuhnhackl to players of the 1970s and 1980s:

Kharlamov - 1.55
Mikhailov - 1.50
Petrov - 1.43
Maltsev - 1.41
Vikulov - 1.28
Krutov - 1.23
Makarov - 1.23
Shadrin - 1.18
Kuhnhackl - 1.17

Now consider, how did Kuhnhackl actually rack up those numbers? Who were his opponents?

Versus... | GP | G | A | P
Finland|17|15|8|23
United States|10|7|9|16
Czechoslovakia|10|10|3|13
East Germany|8|4|6|10
Italy|4|2|7|9
Poland|6|7|2|9
Yugoslavia|1|3|1|4
Canada|5|2|2|4
Soviet Union|10|0|4|4
Romania|2|1|2|3
Netherlands|2|1|1|2
Sweden|11|1|1|2

So he scored only .64 PPG in performances against the top-3 European opponents (SU, Cze, Swe) plus Canada.

Now, that doesn't reduce his case as much as it may seem at first glance. .64 PPG against that level of competition is still very, very good. But it puts his overall numbers into perspective when you see that they were rather inflated from playing on a bad team, and therefore playing a disproportionate number of games against teams like Finland and the USA, rather than constantly taking on the Canadians and Soviets in championship matches.

So we have a player who seems to be comfortably around 10th best of his generation (1970s, early 1980s). Understand that we are covering a 70-year period from the 1920s to around 1990, with Kuhnhackl's era being probably the deepest and most important. A player who was 10th best in the 1950s would not have made the list. One who was 10th best in the 1970s or 1980s would make the list, but at the low end, which is exactly where he landed.

Okay, If you define Top like that I can see that you are havin a point.

 

[seventieslord]

I think he was roughly the 10th best forward of his time ("his time"being the 70s and 80s), which makes him closer to 20th among all players. Still, considering the depth of that period compared to others, I fully agree with the conclusion tarheel reached.

 

[eli4spetterss0n]

What caused the flip between Makarov and Kharlamov in ranking? In the Top 100 and Top 70 Players of All-Time project Kharlamov was ranked comfortably over Makarov. Now Makarov is ranked higher in this project and the Top Wingers Project. I'm sure there are pages of discusssion about these two so if someone could give me a brief summary about what was realized about Makarov, that would be great.

 

[MaxV]

What caused the flip between Makarov and Kharlamov in ranking? In the Top 100 and Top 70 Players of All-Time project Kharlamov was ranked comfortably over Makarov. Now Makarov is ranked higher in this project and the Top Wingers Project. I'm sure there are pages of discusssion about these two so if someone could give me a brief summary about what was realized about Makarov, that would be great.

Comparable peak, far better longevity.

Kharlamov is a bigger name (on both sides), but Makarov had a better career.

 

[crobro]

Doru Toreanu of Romania has to be on the list, as do the Hiti Brothers playing for Yugoslavia.

BUCHAREST – Once sought after by both CSKA Moscow and the Montreal Canadiens, Romania's all-time top scorer and IIHF Hall of Famer died at the age of 60 on Tuesday.

"During his peak, he could have played for any of the best teams in the world, even the CSKA Moscow coaches said at the time they could had found a place for him in their team," said a dejected Sandor Gal to IIHF.com following the loss of his teammate and dear friend from many years at the Romanian national team and one playing together at Dinamo Bucharest.

So bright was his talent that it shone through across both sides of the Iron Curtain. Having opened CSKA's eyes during frequent exhibition games in Moscow, the Montreal Canadiens were also reported to have offered Tureanu a lorryload of dollars to woo the Romanian star to continue his career in the National Hockey League.

Fearing any repercussions that a defection under the political circumstances of that era could mean to his family, Tureanu stayed loyal to Bucharest and devoted his entire playing career to his home-town club Dinamo. Having made his debut at the age of 14, Tureanu played for capital-based club in red and white between 1969 and 1987, winning six domestic championships during an era in Romanian ice hockey when city rivals Dinamo and Steaua not only shared the Mihai Flamaropol ice rink in Eastern Bucharest, but also the duopoly of league championships.

His golden years coincided as Romania were punching above their weight in international ice hockey affairs. With 112 points (74 goals and 39 assists) Tureanu represented Romania during two Olympic Winter Games (Innsbruck 1976 and Lake Placid 1980) and in 17 IIHF World Championships between 1971 and 1987, which included many memorable moments and one participation in the top division in 1977.

At the 1977 IIHF World Championships, Tureanu spearheaded the attack together with his two Dinamo-linemates, Dumitru Axinte and Marian Costea, as Romania went on to record a memorable 5-4 win over the United States. Another fine performance on the international stage came three years later, beating reigning bronze medallists West Germany at the 1980 Lake Placid Olympics 6-4.

Having trailed 4-2 in the second period, Romanian then bounced back led by hat-trick hero Tureanu who turned the game in Romania's favour to record a sensational start to the Olympic tournament where Romania in the end finished eight out of twelve teams.

"He was the best forward ever in Romanian hockey. He had all the things a forward would need, intelligence, skill, great shot and he was a team player," remembered Gal.

Hockey in Bucharest has fallen on hard times after Tureanu’s retirement. He saw his beloved Dinamo close down their hockey section and then last year, the Mihai Flamaropol ice rink in Bucharest where he once made his name closed its doors.

Tureanu's indictment to the IIHF Hall of Fame in 2011, as the second Romanian after Eduard Pana, showed that despite being forgotten in Bucharest, his virtuoso performances had forever left a legacy in the wider hockey world.

HENRIK MANNINEN

 

[ResilientBeast]

Lol no

 

[MaxV]

I know that I made a specific point against Larionov in this thread when comparing him to Krutov, but there is a an argument there.

I'm far from the biggest Soviet hockey system expert, but it seems to me that the Center position was more defensive in that system.

Combine that with the fact that Larionov played with an aggressive defensemen for nearly all of his Euro career in Fetisov (would often switch places) and maybe he was better then his numbers indicated.

 

[seventieslord]

Doru Toreanu of Romania has to be on the list, as do the Hiti Brothers playing for Yugoslavia.

BUCHAREST – Once sought after by both CSKA Moscow and the Montreal Canadiens, Romania's all-time top scorer and IIHF Hall of Famer died at the age of 60 on Tuesday.

"During his peak, he could have played for any of the best teams in the world, even the CSKA Moscow coaches said at the time they could had found a place for him in their team," said a dejected Sandor Gal to IIHF.com following the loss of his teammate and dear friend from many years at the Romanian national team and one playing together at Dinamo Bucharest.

So bright was his talent that it shone through across both sides of the Iron Curtain. Having opened CSKA's eyes during frequent exhibition games in Moscow, the Montreal Canadiens were also reported to have offered Tureanu a lorryload of dollars to woo the Romanian star to continue his career in the National Hockey League.

Fearing any repercussions that a defection under the political circumstances of that era could mean to his family, Tureanu stayed loyal to Bucharest and devoted his entire playing career to his home-town club Dinamo. Having made his debut at the age of 14, Tureanu played for capital-based club in red and white between 1969 and 1987, winning six domestic championships during an era in Romanian ice hockey when city rivals Dinamo and Steaua not only shared the Mihai Flamaropol ice rink in Eastern Bucharest, but also the duopoly of league championships.

His golden years coincided as Romania were punching above their weight in international ice hockey affairs. With 112 points (74 goals and 39 assists) Tureanu represented Romania during two Olympic Winter Games (Innsbruck 1976 and Lake Placid 1980) and in 17 IIHF World Championships between 1971 and 1987, which included many memorable moments and one participation in the top division in 1977.

At the 1977 IIHF World Championships, Tureanu spearheaded the attack together with his two Dinamo-linemates, Dumitru Axinte and Marian Costea, as Romania went on to record a memorable 5-4 win over the United States. Another fine performance on the international stage came three years later, beating reigning bronze medallists West Germany at the 1980 Lake Placid Olympics 6-4.

Having trailed 4-2 in the second period, Romanian then bounced back led by hat-trick hero Tureanu who turned the game in Romania's favour to record a sensational start to the Olympic tournament where Romania in the end finished eight out of twelve teams.

"He was the best forward ever in Romanian hockey. He had all the things a forward would need, intelligence, skill, great shot and he was a team player," remembered Gal.

Hockey in Bucharest has fallen on hard times after Tureanu’s retirement. He saw his beloved Dinamo close down their hockey section and then last year, the Mihai Flamaropol ice rink in Bucharest where he once made his name closed its doors.

Tureanu's indictment to the IIHF Hall of Fame in 2011, as the second Romanian after Eduard Pana, showed that despite being forgotten in Bucharest, his virtuoso performances had forever left a legacy in the wider hockey world.

HENRIK MANNINEN

Erich Kuhnhackl is 48th on the list, and I see no reason Tureanu was better than him. He scored at about 80% of Kuhnhackl's level in pool A games, in one sixth the sample size:

Kuhnhackl spent some time in both A and B pools so he provides a good springboard for comparison.

I was able to determine that, thanks to a defeat at the hands of Poland in a qualifier, Germany was a B pool team in 1972. In 1976 they did not face any easier competition than anyone else, and in 1984 it was the same thing. Kuhnhackl led the 1984 Olympics in scoring, but it was like a B pool title considering the Germans scored just two goals in two games against good competition (USA & Sweden) and 26 in three games against Poland, France, & Yugoslavia, so those games are where all his points came from. However, other teams got the chance to play those nations too.

Anyway, here are Kuhnhackl's pool A stats:

86 GP, 99 points. (1.15)

In pool B:

19 GP, 30 points. (1.58)

I was able to find out a bit more about Tureanu that the SIHR database couldn't tell me. In the 1976 Olympics he was actually the leading scorer of the B pool with 10 points in 6 games. In the 1971 worlds, all I can tell you for sure is that a Romanian teammate led the C pool with 22 points in 7 games, so Doru had less than that. In 1972, a Pole led the B pool in scoring with 13 points in 6 games, so Doru had less than that. In 1973, it was a German with 16 points. In 1974, a Yugoslavian led with 15. The 1980 Olympics have to count as A pool as well, as he played the same schedule as every other team, and faced USA and Sweden.

So with all that said, here's what I can tell you for sure:

Pool A: 15 GP, 14 points (0.93)
Pool B: 26 GP, 38 points (1.46)
Pool C: 7 GP, 17 points (2.43)

With the C pool stats disgregarded, it looks like he was able to score at almost a Kuhnhackl level, just with one sixth as many pool A games.

 

[steve141]

This is the final list of the top European Non-NHL Players of All Time project, as determined by the History of Hockey community at HFBoards. [..]

47	Nils "Nisse" Nilsson	C	1936	2017	Sweden

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

​

Minor point: Nils Nilsson's nickname was "Dubbel-Nisse" rather than "Nisse". Dubbel-Nisse meaning "Double-Nils" in Swedish, referring to the fact that both his first and last name included "Nils".

 

[Albatros]

Erich Kuhnhackl is 48th on the list, and I see no reason Tureanu was better than him.

Kühnhackl being 48th tells more about the list than about Kühnhackl or Tureanu.

 

[Theokritos]

Minor point: Nils Nilsson's nickname was "Dubbel-Nisse" rather than "Nisse". Dubbel-Nisse meaning "Double-Nils" in Swedish, referring to the fact that both his first and last name included "Nils".

I've seen both nicknames used for Nils Nilsson.

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

I've seen both nicknames used for Nils Nilsson.

But why go with the duller of the two?

 

[NigerianNightmare]

Tretiak is way too low. He should ranked at least No 2 above Makarov.

Fetisov deserves the top spot. He's a Michael Jordan of the Russian hockey.

Fetisov ranks top 10 all-time overall and the 2nd-best defenceman after Bobby Orr.

 

[johan f]

Mats Åhlberg had offers from NHL and was prominent player for 15 years. Won national champion ship 4 times with Leksand. Won bronze in Lake Placid, 4 bronze in WC and one silver. Always among top in scoring, both domestic and internationally. He is among the best amateurs ever.

 

[NigerianNightmare]

Bykov and Khomutov should be in Top 20-25. Krutov must be in Top 10.

I could go on...

 

[Batis]

Fetisov deserves the top spot. He's a Michael Jordan of the Russian hockey.

To me Sergei Makarov feels more like the Michael Jordan of Russian hockey for a few reasons.

1) Their scoring dominance over a long time: Makarov winning 9 Soviet league scoring titles in 10 years between 79/80 and 88/89 shows a similar consistency to Jordan being the leading scorer in 10 out of the 11 seasons he played in between 86/87 and 97/98.

2) Their clutch play: As you can see in this post Makarov is the all-time leading scorer against best-on-best Team Canada. Jordan is of course known for being one of the most clutch performers in sports history.

One thing worth noting is that Hull is the only Non-Soviet player in the top 10 when it comes to scoring against best-on-best Team Canada. Here you have that top 10. Note: I used the official stats to make it more official but I also included Bendell's alternative stats from the 1972 Summit Series in paranthesis. All stats were collected from the boxscores on this page. Форум хоккейных статистиков им. Виктора Малеванного - Главная страница

All-time scoring versus Best-on-Best Team Canada:

Sergey Makarov: 8 gp, 5 g, 7 a, 12 pts
Alexander Yakushev: 8 gp, 7 g, 4 a, 11 pts (7 g, 6 a, 13 pts)
Brett Hull: 10 gp, 7 g, 4 a, 11 pts
Vladimir Krutov: 8 gp, 6 g, 5 a, 11 pts
Vyacheslav Fetisov: 7 gp, 2 g, 7 a, 9 pts
Vladimir Shadrin: 8 gp, 3 g, 5 a, 8 pts (3 g, 6 a, 9 pts)
Alexey Kasatonov: 9 gp, 1 g, 7 a, 8 pts
Sergey Shepelev: 4 gp, 4 g, 3 a, 7 pts
Valery Kharlamov: 7 gp, 3 g, 4 a, 7 pts (3 g, 3 a, 6 pts)
Vladimir Petrov: 8 gp, 3 g, 4 a, 7 pts (3 g, 3 a, 6 pts)

3) Their obsession with being number 1: This quote reminds me of how people talk about Jordan´s obsession with being the best.

What stands out to Larionov and Fetisov years later is that, in the middle of such an intense physical experience, Makarov added workouts. He was up earlier than anyone, playing tennis at 5 a.m.

"For one reason -- to be ahead of everybody," Fetisov said.

If they had a slight break during the day, he was on the grass playing soccer.

"He wants to be the best there, too," Larionov said. "It was in his blood to be the best guy. That's the guy. Get up, doesn't matter what, he wants to be the best. He wants to be on top of every sport. That's what Sergei Makarov was all about."

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...rgei-makarov-was-one-best-russian-players-all

While Jordan obviously was on a different level than Makarov I do think that there are some similarities between the two players.

 

[Batis]

Bykov and Khomutov should be in Top 20-25. Krutov must be in Top 10.

I could go on...

Why don´t you make a list yourself since you seem to have all the answers? It is easy to criticize the work of others without providing a list yourself for others to scrutinize. Now I am not saying that this list is perfect by any means but as one of the participants in the project I know that alot of collective work went in to creating the list.

 

[MaxV]

I feel like this recent NHL stint is a validation for Radulov.

He probably was the best modern non-NHL player.

Not sure about top 50, probably not, but perhaps top 70.

 

[Pierre Larouche]

Can't find Khomutov on the list.
He deserves to be in Top 10

respectfully disagree