HOH Top 100 List & Voting Record: DaveG

[FissionFire]

List 6

Rank | Player | Pos
1| Bobby Orr |D
2| Gordie Howe |RW
3| Mario Lemieux |C
4| Wayne Gretzky |C
5| Maurice Richard |RW
6| Bobby Hull |LW
7| Jean Beliveau |C
8| Terry Sawchuk |G
9| Doug Harvey |D
10| Ray Bourque |D
11| Eddie Shore |D
12| Jacques Plante |G
13| Guy Lafleur |RW
14| Glenn Hall |G
15| Vladislav Tretiak |G
16| Ken Dryden |G
17| Valeri Kharlamov |LW
18| Stan Mikita |C
19| Newsy Lalonde |C
20| Denis Potvin |D
21| Mike Bossy |RW
22| Howie Morenz |C
23| Phil Esposito |C
24| Boris Mikhailov |RW
25| Ted Lindsay |LW
26| Larry Robinson |D
27| Cyclone Taylor |C
28| Red Kelly |D
29| Paul Coffey |D
30| Patrick Roy |G
31| Martin Brodeur |G
32| Nicklas Lidstrom |D
33| Dominik Hasek |G
34| Mark Messier |C
35| Vsevolod Bobrov |RW
36| Bobby Clarke |C
37| Jaromir Jagr |RW
38| Steve Yzerman |C
39| Chris Chelios |D
40| Bryan Trottier |C
41| Frank Mahovlich |LW
42| Milt Schmidt |C
43| Henri Richard |C
44| Dickie Moore |LW
45| Ron Francis |C
46| Syl Apps, Sr. |C
47| Bill Durnan |G
48| Joe Sakic |C
49| Marcel Dionne |C
50| Charlie Conacher |RW
51| Brett Hull |RW
52| Joe Malone |C
53| Dit Clapper |RW/D
54| Tim Horton |D
55| Bill Cook |RW
56| Bernard Geoffrion |RW
57| Johnny Bucyk |LW
58| Viacheslav Fetisov |D
59| Brad Park |D
60| George Hainsworth |G
61| Gilbert Perreault |C
62| Jari Kurri |RW
63| Max Bentley |C
64| Jan Suchy |D
65| King Clancy |D
66| Scott Stevens |D
67| Nels Stewart |C
68| Peter Stastny |C
69| Ted Kennedy |C
70| Andy Bathgate |RW
71| Bill Cowley |C
72| Cy Denneny |LW
73| Pierre Pilote |D
74| Eric Lindros |C
75| Turk Broda |G
76| Bernie Parent |G
77| Aurel Joliat |LW
78| Toe Blake |LW
79| Frank Boucher |C
80| Frank Brimsek |G
81| Dave Keon |C
82| Elmer Lach |C
83| Borje Salming |D
84| Scott Niedermayer |D
85| Doug Bentley |LW
86| Georges Vezina |G
87| Earl Seibert |D
88| Clint Benedict |G
89| Charlie Gardiner |G
90| Billy Smith |G
91| Tony Esposito |G
92| Serge Savard |D
93| Grant Fuhr |G
94| Bob Gainey |LW
95| Alex Delvecchio |C/LW
96| Sid Abel |C/LW
97| Lorne Chabot |G
98| Babe Dye |RW
99| Johnny Bower |G
100| Sprague Cleghorn |D
101| Norm Ullman |C
102| Joe Primeau |C
103| Mike Gartner |RW
104| Brian Leetch |D
105| Pat LaFontaine |C
106| Bill Gadsby |D
107| Yvan Cournoyer |RW
108| Babe Pratt |D
109| Darryl Sittler |C
110| Pavel Bure |RW
111| Black Jack Stewart |D
112| Sweeny Schriner |LW
113| Igor Larionov |C
114| Cam Neely |RW
115| Sergei Makarov |RW
116| Denis Savard |C
117| Sergei Fedorov |C
118| Anatoli Firsov |LW
119| Frank Nighbor |C
120| Rod Langway |D

Players from the Top 100 not to appear on this list:
Al MacInnis (64)
Peter Forsberg (74)
Busher Jackson (89)
Valeri Vasiliev (97)

Players ranked highest overall on this list:
Terry Sawchuk (8)
Vladislav Tretiak (15)
Ken Dryden (16)
Boris Mikhailov (24)

Players ranked lowest overall on this list:
Eddie Shore (11)
Sergei Makarov (115)
Anatoli Firsov (118)
Frank Nighbor (119)

Players unique to this list:
NONE


Voting By Round

Round | Rank 1 | Rank 2 | Rank 3 | Rank 4 | Rank 5 | Rank 6 | Rank 7
1|Bobby Orr|Gordie Howe|Wayne Gretzky|Mario Lemieux
2|Maurice Richard|Bobby Hull|Jean Beliveau|Doug Harvey|Eddie Shore|Guy Lafleur
3|Terry Sawchuk|Guy Lafleur|Ray Bourque|Glenn Hall|Jacques Plante
4|Terry Sawchuk|Patrick Roy|Ted Lindsay|Glenn Hall|Phil Esposito
5|Glenn Hall|Ted Lindsay|Bryan Trottier|Bobby Clarke|Mike Bossy
6|Ken Dryden|Mike Bossy|Valeri Kharlamov|Newsy Lalonde|Bryan Trottier
7|Ken Dryden|Milt Schmidt|Martin Brodeur|Bernie Geoffrion|Larry Robinson
8|Ken Dryden|Bernie Geoffrion|Chris Chelios|Brad Park|Steve Yzerman
9|Cyclone Taylor|Chris Chelios|Paul Coffey|Bill Cook|Charlie Conacher
10|Max Bentley|Paul Coffey|Frank Mahovlich|Henri Richard|Dickie Moore
11|Vladislav Tretiak|Dickie Moore|Henri Richard|Dit Clapper|Pierre Pilote
12|Henri Richard|Tim Horton|Andy Bathgate|Bernie Parent|Brett Hull
13|Brett Hull|Jari Kurri|Peter Forsberg|Bernie Parent|Al MacInnis|Peter Stastny|Ted Kennedy
14|Boris Mikhailov|Peter Stastny|Bernie Parent|Aurel Joliat|Ted Kennedy|Peter Forsberg|Sprague Cleghorn
15|Ron Francis|Sergei Makarov|Johnny Bower|Dave Keon|Elmer Lach|Bernie Parent|Scott Stevens
16|Ron Francis|Anatoli Firsov|Sid Abel|Dave Keon|Johnny Bucyk|Bill Gadsby
17|Ron Francis|Doug Bentley|Sid Abel|Norm Ullman|Brian Leetch|Billy Smith
18|Valeri Vasiliev|Frank Nighbor|Norm Ullman|Billy Smith|Alex Delvecchio|Brian Leetch

Click to read more...

 

[MXD]

Top-heavy on goalies and russian players, as shown by the HIGHEST VOTE result. I did not expect to see Hasek and Roy so low for sure, but a VERY good list nonetheless. Was Busher Jackson an omission?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Same top 6 that I would have. Didn't think I'd see that.

Swap Sawchuck and Hasek, Dryden and Roy, more like my view.

Good to at least see Langway's name, albeit last.

Glad to see Guy Lefleur way up there.

Kharlamov fine, Tretiak not so much.

Love Ronnie Francis, but a little too far up the list (before Sakic & Dionne?)

Wish Pavel Bure & Johnny Bower were closer to the top.

No Al MacInnis?

Very interesting list. Nothing but admiration for all of those that put a top 120 together before getting all the input.

 

[DaveG]

Top-heavy on goalies and russian players, as shown by the HIGHEST VOTE result. I did not expect to see Hasek and Roy so low for sure, but a VERY good list nonetheless. Was Busher Jackson an omission?

Yep, total omission on my part, I probably would bump Bobrov entirely and slide Busher somewhere in the 90-105 range. It's no secret that I'm a big fan of the Russian style of play from the 70s and 80s. That had a BIG influence on my list. Overall I think the voting got it close to right in the end but still think a few of the Russian players are underrated.

Same top 6 that I would have. Didn't think I'd see that.

Swap Sawchuck and Hasek, Dryden and Roy, more like my view.

Good to at least see Langway's name, albeit last.

Glad to see Guy Lefleur way up there.

Kharlamov fine, Tretiak not so much.

Love Ronnie Francis, but a little too far up the list (before Sakic & Dionne?)

Wish Pavel Bure & Johnny Bower were closer to the top.

No Al MacInnis?

Very interesting list. Nothing but admiration for all of those that put a top 120 together before getting all the input.

I definitely underrated the modern goalies a bit, and overrated Sawchuk, although I'd still have him as #1 for the position. Sawchuk would probably be behind Bourque and Shore to round out my top 10, Roy around 25th and Hasek around where I had Tretiak, Tretiak after Dryden but before Roy. It's interesting on all the changes I would make to my list in retrospect, at least after my top 6. That's going to stay the same regardless for next time we do this.

The more I think about Langway the more I see him moving up this list. MacInnis was a total omission on my part but he'd be somewhere between 70-85 on the revised list.

Ronnie I overrated a bit but he'd still crack my top 60 most likely, may even flip him with Sakic and just keep that in the end. He's one of the more modern star players that consistently gets overlooked IMO. He was only once on a truly great team (Pittsburgh) and his numbers soared because of it, but he consistently put up good numbers with rather mediocre Whalers teams, as well as some mediocre and even outright bad Canes teams. Has among the best longevity in hockey with Gordie Howe being the only other player to have as many consecutive 50+ point seasons. Great faceoff ability, great two-way player (won a Selke, finished 2nd in two other votes) very clean (2 Lady Bings) while still not playing a "soft" game. One of the more underrate leaders as well, won the two cups in Pittsburgh but he also prettymuch willed a Canes team to the finals in 2002 that probably had no business even getting out of the first round against New Jersey.

Love Bure, one of my favorite players ever to watch. In his prime he may have been the most exciting player I've ever seen. I was honestly trying to find reasons to move him up the list.

Thanks for the input so far guys.

 

[MXD]

Yep, total omission on my part, I probably would bump Bobrov entirely and slide Busher somewhere in the 90-105 range.

Schriner was there, Busher wasn't, that's why I expected an omission. I had both of them in my list (now the gap would be MUCH bigger)

 

[FissionFire]

A couple things I noticed:

1. Very high on goalies. Seeing Sawchuk in the top 10 was suprising. Not quite as suprising as seeing Bower at the bottom behind Smith, Esposito, Fuhr, and especially Chabot.

2. You seemed to give non-NHL Europeans alot of credit with high rankings on Tretiak, Kharlamov, Bobrov, Mikhailov, and Suchy. Probably too much credit in some cases. I think you were also overly harsh on players who did play in the league with low ratings on Makarov and Fetisov.

3. Brodeur ahead of Hasek seems misplaced, but Hasek and Roy outside the top 25 seems very off, especially with the high rankings of other goalies.

4. I think you were either overrating or being overly critical of many modern players. Roy, Hasek, Messier, and Jagr seem exceedingly low while Francis, Stevens, Hull, Lindros, and Niedermayer seem exceedingly high.

 

[MXD]

4. I think you were either overrating or being overly critical of many modern players. Roy, Hasek, Messier, and Jagr seem exceedingly low while Francis, Stevens, Hull, Lindros, and Niedermayer seem exceedingly high.

Humm.... I actually had Jagr much lower and Messier lower. This said, I'd really change Jagr's rating now as I really put too much emphasis on his CAPS years. My opinion of Jagr on his Pittsburgh years ain't a good as many others as well. My Messier ranking is pretty much set in stone, at least for the range he falls in.

 

[DaveG]

A couple things I noticed:

1. Very high on goalies. Seeing Sawchuk in the top 10 was suprising. Not quite as suprising as seeing Bower at the bottom behind Smith, Esposito, Fuhr, and especially Chabot.

Bower would move up on a future list, I think he was originally an omission of mine and I had just stuck him in on a revision. I'll have to go back and check my e-mail archives to see if I'm right about that.

2. You seemed to give non-NHL Europeans alot of credit with high rankings on Tretiak, Kharlamov, Bobrov, Mikhailov, and Suchy. Probably too much credit in some cases. I think you were also overly harsh on players who did play in the league with low ratings on Makarov and Fetisov.

Looking at it you're right about that. I'm still trying to formulate a good balance for NHL and non-NHL euros when figuring my top 120 list at this point. It's proving to be more difficult then I thought.

3. Brodeur ahead of Hasek seems misplaced, but Hasek and Roy outside the top 25 seems very off, especially with the high rankings of other goalies.

4. I think you were either overrating or being overly critical of many modern players. Roy, Hasek, Messier, and Jagr seem exceedingly low while Francis, Stevens, Hull, Lindros, and Niedermayer seem exceedingly high.

Nieds and Lindros I definitely think I overrated, although Lindros's peak was phenominal. Hull and Francis I would probably drop a little, but I don't think nearly as much as most would expect. Hull would probably fall further since he wasn't as much of a two-way presence as Francis. Jagr I put a lot of his post-Penguins career into his ranking. Very inconsistent and seemingly hockeys version of "Manny being Manny" on the ice at times. No question he is one of the most gifted players ever, he just seemed to show it only when he wanted to. Messier I just feel is overrated, especially in regards to his leadership. No question he was a great player, but I just don't see him on the same level of leadership as I do Yzerman, Sakic and even Francis. A lot of his leadership legend, to me at least, seems built off 1994, where I thought Leetch was a much better player in the playoffs.

It's strange how much personal preference effected my thoughts on modern players, definitely something I'm going to try to work on for the next list. Although I probably still won't rank Messier and Jagr as highly as many others would, just as I would rank Francis and Stevens higher then many others would.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Thoughts...

*Nice to see some props for Primeau and Schriner, although both were a little low than my list. I'm beginning to realize just how underrated some of those 30s guys are around here.

*An ironic top-heavy rating for goalies. Who are the top 5? Sawchuk, Plante, Hall, Dryden and Tretiak. Roy and Hasek slid a lot. And Turk Broda came in at No. 75.

*I noticed you had Mario ahead of Gretzky in Vote 1, but Wayne ahead of Mario for Vote 2. Good to see FF and I aren't the only ones with Gordie ahead of Wayne.

*I think Busher Jackson will see the biggest increase of any player if we do this again next year. A lot of people admitting they omitted him.

*I've often thought of Jagr as hockey's answer to Manny Ramirez. Jagr's probably higher up on hockey's all-time list than Manny is on baseball. But they're both very high maintenance, occasionally difficult to deal with, and prone to indifference, but they're also highly explosive offensive game-breakers. Jagr high maintenance nature is the reason he came in lower on my list, despite his offensive abilities.

 

[DaveG]

In all honesty, vote 2 Mario v Wayne came down to a coin toss for me, it landed on tails (Wayne). Enough people had strong enough arguments for Wayne. Not so much so that I would definitely say Wayne was better then Mario but enough that I would have them as equals if that sort of thing was allowed.

Still, I don't think either was as complete to me as either Howe or Orr were. Best offensive players ever? yes, but also in an era where talent in the league was spread out far more then it was with Howe and even Orr, Howe and Orr clearly take them (to me) in two-way play and physicality.

 

[pappyline]

Thoughts...

*I think Busher Jackson will see the biggest increase of any player if we do this again next year. A lot of people admitting they omitted him.

Probably a good reason to have some pre-initial list discussion. Of the 6 lists, we have seen so far, 3 left him off entirely. The other 3 had him 72, 87, 92. Lucky I had him at 33 or he might never have come up for vote in the top 100. Mind you, I may have rated him a tad high. There is something about Busher that is larger than life. I would say he was very exciting to watch. Plus the fact that Smythe was so vindictive about Busher's life style. The Press would love him today, I may move him down a few spots next time but he will still be in my top 50.

 

[MXD]

Probably a good reason to have some pre-initial list discussion. Of the 6 lists, we have seen so far, 3 left him off entirely. The other 3 had him 72, 87, 92. Lucky I had him at 33 or he might never have come up for vote in the top 100. Mind you, I may have rated him a tad high. There is something about Busher that is larger than life. I would say he was very exciting to watch. Plus the fact that Smythe was so vindictive about Busher's life style. The Press would love him today, I may move him down a few spots next time but he will still be in my top 50.

I'm currently working on ... the follow-up for the list. Roughly around 75. (had him like in the low 80ies).

 

[pappyline]

I'm currently working on ... the follow-up for the list. Roughly around 75. (had him like in the low 80ies).

Where do you have his linemates Conacher & Primeau?

 

[MXD]

Where do you have his linemates Conacher & Primeau?

Primeau isn't in my list, nor in my HM's. He won't be there either. I'll have to look a bit deeper into this, but he really seems like the 4th or 5th best center of his era. Which is obviously not enough to crack a Top-120, even if there wasn't a truly dominating forward at this time, like Howe or Gretz were later on. I do consider Cups as well for this era, as there weren't a team that was clearly standing out of the pack. So Morenz, Boucher, Barry and Stewart are all ahead of Primeau.

Conacher is right between Cook and Apps (in my new list).

This said, I do have Clancy around 50th in both my new and revisited list, and for a team that won only one cup, well, 3 players in the Top-120 is ... A LOT, really.

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

Looking at it you're right about that. I'm still trying to formulate a good balance for NHL and non-NHL euros when figuring my top 120 list at this point. It's proving to be more difficult then I thought.

I'm also trying to find a good balance and it's a challenging task. I also have Tretiak (in my top 30) ahead of Kharlamov.

One other quick comment: It seems like many who rate Suchy highly would also include Holecek on their list. However, in my case I failed to notice either of them for inclusion on my original list...