High Scoring, High PIM Players

[85highlander]

Does anyone know who the highest scoring, highest penalty minute players would be per game...? Is there a statistic that would factor in the following: points, PIM, and games played for some sort of ratio on this?

For example, Mark Messier: 1756 GP, 1887 PTS, 1910 PIM = ?

Are there enough variables to show something concrete for a per game analysis...?


I'd also be curious about:

Gordie Howe: 1767 GP, 1850 PTS, 1685 PIM

Bobby Orr: 657 GP, 915 PTS, 953 PIM

Bobby Clarke: 1144 GP, 1210 PTS, 1453 PIM

Click to read more...

 

[RabbinsDuck]

I'd be curious if anyone has had a higher point/PIM ratio than Probert in 1988 where he had 74 GP 29 G 33 A 62 PTS and 398 PIM

In the playoffs he set a franchise record with 21 pts in 16 gms and 51 PIM.

 

[PensBeerGeek]

Regular season stats:

Gary Roberts - 1224 games, 909 points and 2560 PIMs
Rick Tocchet - 1144 games, 952 points and 2972 PIMs

 

[Stray Wasp]

I'd be curious if anyone has had a higher point/PIM ratio than Probert in 1988 where he had 74 GP 29 G 33 A 62 PTS and 398 PIM

In the playoffs he set a franchise record with 21 pts in 16 gms and 51 PIM.

In 81-82 Al Secord's regular season stats were 80 GP 44 G 31 A 75 PTS and 303 PIM.

 

[Fire Sweeney]

Eric Lindros
760 GP 372 G 493 A 865 PTS 1398 PIM

 

[dsreyn]

Does anyone know who the highest scoring, highest penalty minute players would be per game...? Is there a statistic that would factor in the following: points, PIM, and games played for some sort of ratio on this?

For example, Mark Messier: 1756 GP, 1887 PTS, 1910 PIM = ?

Are there enough variables to show something concrete for a per game analysis...?


I'd also be curious about:

Gordie Howe: 1767 GP, 1850 PTS, 1685 PIM

Bobby Orr: 657 GP, 915 PTS, 953 PIM

Bobby Clarke: 1144 GP, 1210 PTS, 1453 PIM

I tried something along the lines of the "power-speed number" that Bill James concocted years ago to measure combined home run and base stealing ability:

score = 2 * Pts * PIM / (Pts + PIM)

The factor of 2 is included so that, for example, someone with 100 pts and 100 PIM would have a score of 100. Then dividing by games to get career leaders on a per game basis, the top 10 are (minimum 200 games):

Bobby Orr - 1.421
Eric Lindros - 1.406
Ken Linseman - 1.279
Theo Fleury - 1.261
Rick Tocchet - 1.261
Keith Tkachuk - 1.233
Mario Lemieux - 1.228
Cam Neely - 1.226
Gerard Gallant - 1.213
Brian Sutter - 1.204

The other players you mentioned: Howe - 0.998, Messier - 1.081, and Clarke - 1.154. And in case you're curious, Gretkzy is at 0.646. The top five for a single season (min. 50 games) are:

Kevin Stevens, 1991-92 - 2.072
Eric Lindros, 1996-97 - 1.922
Paul Coffey, 1988-89 - 1.908
Rich Tocchet, 1992-93 - 1.902
Kevin Stevens, 1992-93 - 1.895

Doug

 

[85highlander]

I tried something along the lines of the "power-speed number" that Bill James concocted years ago to measure combined home run and base stealing ability:

score = 2 * Pts * PIM / (Pts + PIM)

The factor of 2 is included so that, for example, someone with 100 pts and 100 PIM would have a score of 100. Then dividing by games to get career leaders on a per game basis, the top 10 are (minimum 200 games):

Bobby Orr - 1.421
Eric Lindros - 1.406
Ken Linseman - 1.279
Theo Fleury - 1.261
Rick Tocchet - 1.261
Keith Tkachuk - 1.233
Mario Lemieux - 1.228
Cam Neely - 1.226
Gerard Gallant - 1.213
Brian Sutter - 1.204

The other players you mentioned: Howe - 0.998, Messier - 1.081, and Clarke - 1.154. And in case you're curious, Gretkzy is at 0.646. The top five for a single season (min. 50 games) are:

Kevin Stevens, 1991-92 - 2.072
Eric Lindros, 1996-97 - 1.922
Paul Coffey, 1988-89 - 1.908
Rich Tocchet, 1992-93 - 1.902
Kevin Stevens, 1992-93 - 1.895

Doug

Beautiful -- exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. Much Thx.

 

[seventieslord]

THN used to do something called "intimidation quotient" using goals and PIMs to attempt to rate the best power forwards in the league. It's ridiculously silly. Interesting to look at, but really meaningless. You're combining a good stat (scoring goals) and a bad stat (taking penalties) and attempting to make something useful out of them.

With proper manipulation, more useful information can be derived, though. For example, is the player fighting a lot? That's intimidating. Does he take a lot of roughing-type penalties and take opponents to the box with him, or are they lazy/retailtory? Those don't help the team. Nowadays we have hit stats, too. That makes a lot more sense than using PIMs. I'd love to see who scores the most goals and makes the most hits without taking PIMs.

Still, how do you make a formula that reflects that scoring a goal is infinitely more important than making a hit?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Regular season stats:

Gary Roberts - 1224 games, 909 points and 2560 PIMs
Rick Tocchet - 1144 games, 952 points and 2972 PIMs

Pat Verbeek - 1424 games, 1063 points and 2905 PIMs

 

[MadArcand]

Pat Verbeek - 1424 games, 1063 points and 2905 PIMs

Dale Hunter - 1407 GP, 1020 PTS, 3565 PIM

The lone member of the exclusive 1000 point, 3000 PIM club

 

[mercury]

Adam Graves' point total wasn't that impressive, but he was consistent at 25-30 goals, 60+ points and 100+ PIM for several seasons with the Rangers. He ended up with 1152 GP, 616 points, 1224 PIM.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

Single Season...

Tiger Williams GP: 77 G: 35 A: 27 PTS: 62 PIM: 343

 

[Oilers1*]

I think Keith Tkachuk was the only player to ever lead the league in goals, while also topping 200 PIMs.

Ted Lindsey was the only player to ever lead the league in goals, assists, points and penalty minutes (not all in the same season, but on seperate occassions).

 

[TDD]

Wilf Paiement had 814 career points and 1757 penalty minutes...not bad for a guy that is never mentioned.

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

Some seasons that can be mentioned as examples, listed by PIM (the top 5 in single seasons with a PPG of at least 1.15 (60 GP) by highest PIM, and then selected seasons and players). Take a look at the list here.

Rank |Player |Season |GP |G |A |TP |PPG |PIM
1 |Ken Linseman |1981-82 |79 |24 |68 |92 |1.16 |275
T-2 |Gerard Gallant |1989-90 |69 |36 |44 |80 |1.16 |254
T-2 |Kevin Stevens |1991-92 |80 |54 |69 |123 |1.54 |254
4 |Rick Tocchet |1992-93 |80 |48 |61 |109 |1.36 |240
5 |Laurie Boschman |1983-84 |61 |28 |46 |74 |1.21 |234
T-7 |Terry O'Reilly |1977-78 |77 |29 |61 |90 |1.17 |211
11 |Paul Coffey |1988-89 |75 |30 |83 |113 |1.51 |195
15 |Mark Messier |1983-84 |73 |37 |64 |101 |1.38 |165
16 |Eric Lindros |1995-96 |73 |47 |68 |115 |1.58 |163
20 |Stan Mikita |1964-65 |70 |28 |59 |87 |1.24 |154
T-23 |Wilf Paiement |1980-81 |77 |40 |57 |97 |1.26 |145
25 |Todd Bertuzzi |2002-03 |82 |46 |51 |97 |1.18 |144
26 |Jean Beliveau |1955-56 |70 |47 |41 |88 |1.26 |143
T-31 |Bobby Clarke |1975-76 |76 |30 |89 |119 |1.57 |136
34 |Frank Mahovlich |1960-61 |70 |48 |36 |84 |1.20 |131
T-41 |Bobby Orr |1969-70 |76 |33 |87 |120 |1.58 |125
T-44 |Gary Suter |1987-88 |75 |21 |70 |91 |1.21 |124
T-54 |Peter Stastny |1988-89 |72 |35 |50 |85 |1.18 |117
T-66 |Gordie Howe |1953-54 |70 |33 |48 |81 |1.16 |109
T-77 |Ted Lindsay |1956-57 |70 |30 |55 |85 |1.21 |103

Really high PIMs, not so high in scoring:

Player |Season |GP |G |A |TP |PPG |PIM
Al Secord |1981-82 |80 |44 |31 |75 |0.94 |303
Dale Hunter |1981-82 |80 |22 |50 |72 |0.90 |272
Keith Tkachuk |1993-94 |84 |41 |40 |81 |0.96 |255
Pat Verbeek |1990-91 |80 |43 |39 |82 |1.03 |246
Brian Sutter |1981-82 |74 |39 |36 |75 |1.01 |239
Brad Maxwell |1983-84 |78 |19 |54 |73 |0.94 |225
Chris Chelios |1988-89 |80 |15 |58 |73 |0.91 |185
Scott Stevens |1987-88 |80 |12 |60 |72 |0.90 |184

Some great seasons in scoring with at least one PIM per game on average, pre-1950:

Player |Season |GP |G |A |TP |PPG |PIM
Joe Malone |1917-18 |20 |44 |4 |48 |2.40 |30
Cy Denneny |1917-18 |20 |36 |10 |46 |2.30 |80
Newsy Lalonde |1919-20 |23 |37 |9 |46 |2.00 |34
Reg Noble |1917-18 |20 |30 |10 |40 |2.00 |35
Punch Broadbent |1921-22 |24 |32 |14 |46 |1.92 |28
Babe Dye |1920-21 |24 |35 |5 |40 |1.67 |32
Aurel Joliat |1924-25 |25 |30 |11 |41 |1.64 |85
Dit Clapper |1929-30 |44 |41 |20 |61 |1.39 |48
Bill Cook |1929-30 |44 |29 |30 |59 |1.34 |56
Hec Kilrea |1929-30 |44 |36 |22 |58 |1.32 |72

 

[c-carp]

Glad to see Brain Sutter get some props here

 

[c-carp]

Some D-men that come to mind are

Scott Stevens
Mark Tinordi
Brad Park
Dave Manson

 

[seventieslord]

Tinordi was high scoring??

 

[davemess]

Kevin Stevens 91/92 season is pretty damn impressive.

54 goals, 123 points, 254 PIMs

 

[c-carp]

Tinordi was high scoring??

I dont have a book in front of me but I know he was an all star at least once and I remember a very good D-man when I think of him.

 

[mco543]

Tinordi topped out at 15 27 42 with 157 pims in 92-93

 

[c-carp]

Tinordi topped out at 15 27 42 with 157 pims in 92-93

To me that isnt bad. I stand by putting him down.

 

[ilovetheflyers8]

Does anyone know who the highest scoring, highest penalty minute players would be per game...? Is there a statistic that would factor in the following: points, PIM, and games played for some sort of ratio on this?

For example, Mark Messier: 1756 GP, 1887 PTS, 1910 PIM = ?

Are there enough variables to show something concrete for a per game analysis...?


I'd also be curious about:

Gordie Howe: 1767 GP, 1850 PTS, 1685 PIM

Bobby Orr: 657 GP, 915 PTS, 953 PIM

Bobby Clarke: 1144 GP, 1210 PTS, 1453 PIM

If you wanted to look at a lot of Clarke's penalties you could look here- and click on the game for more details.

http://www.flyershistory.com/cgi-bin/rspenaltylist.cgi?Bobby_Clarke

 

[Sadekuuro]

Brendan Shanahan has 1354 points and 2489 PIM in 1524 games