HF Retro Game of the Year - 1996 - Super Mario 64

Game of the year back in 1996?


  • Total voters
    84
  • Poll closed .

TheDoldrums

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May 3, 2016
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BotW is almost pure gameplay, there is next to no down time in that game.

Except for when you're climbing a cliff and it starts raining, so you have to wait until the game decides you're allowed to play again. Or when you're entering one of the 120 identical shrines with their identical animations and long load times.
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
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Except for when you're climbing a cliff and it starts raining, so you have to wait until the game decides you're allowed to play again. Or when you're entering one of the 120 identical shrines with their identical animations and long load times.

That's not what down time is.

Down time is stuff like cutscenes or long dialogue segments in RPGs.
 

TheDoldrums

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That's not what down time is.

Down time is stuff like cutscenes or long dialogue segments in RPGs.

Well then. I certainly don't consider cutscenes or dialogue to not be respecting my time, I very much enjoy the story in good games. But I guess that perspective does help explain why you're so high on BOTW and its minimalist narrative.
 

syz

[1, 5, 6, 14]
Jul 13, 2007
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Well then. I certainly don't consider cutscenes or dialogue to not be respecting my time, I very much enjoy the story in good games. But I guess that perspective does help explain why you're so high on BOTW and its minimalist narrative.

Hey, those flashback scenes you found in BotW were the best part of the game. At least in those you didn't have to deal with the combat.
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
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Cutscenes and long dialogue segments were what you meant by not respecting your time? I thought you were referring to grinding and repetitively carrying out arbitrary and menial tasks.

That's right. I call downtime periods of time when you are "on rails" and have to ride the section out in order to get back into the thick of it/in control of your character.

I am no fan of grinding but it is gameplay so I can't call it down time.
 
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Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
51,167
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Well then. I certainly don't consider cutscenes or dialogue to not be respecting my time, I very much enjoy the story in good games. But I guess that perspective does help explain why you're so high on BOTW and its minimalist narrative.

BotW was such a joy after the endless handholding of Twilight Princess.
 

RandV

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My pick for best video game of all time would be Super Metroid. Flawless masterpiece that perfectly holds up today, equally brilliant in mechanics/design as it is in atmospheric visual storytelling, beautiful spritework, sound design, and music that still looks/feels as striking as anything else released today, and the very simple narrative is wonderfully executed. Games have been trying to copy and improve on it for decades, and it's STILL trendy to do so today, but despite great efforts, nothing's really come close to putting it all together in a way that feels as on point. Still feels fresh and full of personality despite the market being bombarded with clones of it.

Man.. that 2014 'poll' that's been brought up here was just everyone submitting their own top 10 list to the poster running it, they tallied up the score according to point totals (1st = 10p, 10th = 1p) and then released the top 50 counting down 10 at a time.

I put both Metroid Prime (in my top 3) and Super Metroid (in my bottom 3) into my list. Prime made it in the late 40's, and I was like okay most people probably ranked Super Metroid higher so it should be coming up soon. 30-40, nope, 20-30, nope, 10-20, nope... so I was thinking wow did it really make the top 10? But no... I was the only one to give it a single vote. Metroid Prime made the top 50 because of my high vote, but otherwise only received one other low vote from another poster.

I think Super Metroid has been mentioned a couple of times now, so where the heck were all you guys back then?
 

RandV

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And I would agree with you as a matter of principle.

However, IP laws exist for a good reason and it's well within a company's rights to ignore our silly principle in this case.

Ironically people have made the case that Nintendo doesn't exactly follow the law either, in particular the Fair Use doctrine. This is what people use to make a variety of video's on youtube and the like, with, Sony, Microsoft, and I believe every big game publisher encouraging users to go ahead with it. Nintendo though issues DMCA notices either taking the YouTubers add revenue or forcing them to take the video with any bit of Nintendo stuff in it down. This pretty blatantly goes against fair use, and you could even call it a form of theft, yet they get away with it unchallenged because obviously no YouTuber is going to be able to afford to go to court with Nintendo over something so petty.
 

bambamcam4ever

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Feb 16, 2012
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Man.. that 2014 'poll' that's been brought up here was just everyone submitting their own top 10 list to the poster running it, they tallied up the score according to point totals (1st = 10p, 10th = 1p) and then released the top 50 counting down 10 at a time.

I put both Metroid Prime (in my top 3) and Super Metroid (in my bottom 3) into my list. Prime made it in the late 40's, and I was like okay most people probably ranked Super Metroid higher so it should be coming up soon. 30-40, nope, 20-30, nope, 10-20, nope... so I was thinking wow did it really make the top 10? But no... I was the only one to give it a single vote. Metroid Prime made the top 50 because of my high vote, but otherwise only received one other low vote from another poster.

I think Super Metroid has been mentioned a couple of times now, so where the heck were all you guys back then?
I remember I had Metroid Prime as my #2 on that vote so it must have been just us.
 

Commander Clueless

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Sep 10, 2008
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Ironically people have made the case that Nintendo doesn't exactly follow the law either, in particular the Fair Use doctrine. This is what people use to make a variety of video's on youtube and the like, with, Sony, Microsoft, and I believe every big game publisher encouraging users to go ahead with it. Nintendo though issues DMCA notices either taking the YouTubers add revenue or forcing them to take the video with any bit of Nintendo stuff in it down. This pretty blatantly goes against fair use, and you could even call it a form of theft, yet they get away with it unchallenged because obviously no YouTuber is going to be able to afford to go to court with Nintendo over something so petty.

As I understand it (could be out of date), a lot of that stuff (i.e. Let's Plays and the like) are still a bit of a grey area when it comes to Fair Use. Obviously critique, etc. should be covered under Fair Use.

Nintendo is a bit of a dinosaur when it comes to this stuff. Other companies tend to understand its value.
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
51,167
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Man.. that 2014 'poll' that's been brought up here was just everyone submitting their own top 10 list to the poster running it, they tallied up the score according to point totals (1st = 10p, 10th = 1p) and then released the top 50 counting down 10 at a time.

I put both Metroid Prime (in my top 3) and Super Metroid (in my bottom 3) into my list. Prime made it in the late 40's, and I was like okay most people probably ranked Super Metroid higher so it should be coming up soon. 30-40, nope, 20-30, nope, 10-20, nope... so I was thinking wow did it really make the top 10? But no... I was the only one to give it a single vote. Metroid Prime made the top 50 because of my high vote, but otherwise only received one other low vote from another poster.

I think Super Metroid has been mentioned a couple of times now, so where the heck were all you guys back then?

I forgot about Super Metroid when that vote when down. I remember you saying how crazy it was that it didn't make the list and I could do nothing but hang my head in shame :laugh:

Metroid Prime is another game I'd have above CT in my GOAT list. Speaking of lists, I had always wanted to do a GOAT Video Game OST thread...
 

TheDoldrums

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May 3, 2016
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Chrono Trigger's still my second favorite game of all time. DS port was the best, but the addon explanation connecting Dalton to Porre was one of the biggest and most blatant immersion breaking moments in history for me.

They essentially made the comic relief bad guy the one responsible for killing Crono, Lucca, and Marle between CT and CC. **** that noise.

Literally any other character would've been a more sensible option for that, other than maybe Ozzie.

There's no evidence that the Chrono Trigger characters ended up like that.

Crono and Marle are missing in Chrono Cross. I interpret the "ghost" manifestations of the characters you see as the planet talking to our Cross characters. They have knowledge that the CT characters would never possess. Lucca is indeed killed by Lynx...but by the end of the game, you've erased Lynx from the timeline so she's also fine. At one point there were plans for a third game to fill out a trilogy, Chrono Break. Masato Kato said all the CT and CC characters would be there as sort of an all-star team.

Let's not forget CT ends with Schala stuck with Lavos. By the end of Cross Lavos is finally dealt with and Schala is freed. Crono and Marle are never mentioned as being in danger, so I think the CT cast actually ends up better in Cross than they do in the original game

Chrono Cross is a fascinating sequel. It dives headfirst into the deep questions Chrono Trigger starts to raise. What are the unintended consequences of changing the past through time travel? Have you considered that stopping this evil being and altering history could also erase a lot of good people that had nothing to do with these stakes?
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
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There's no evidence that the Chrono Trigger characters ended up like that.

Crono and Marle are missing in Chrono Cross. I interpret the "ghost" manifestations of the characters you see as the planet talking to our Cross characters. They have knowledge that the CT characters would never possess. Lucca is indeed killed by Lynx...but by the end of the game, you've erased Lynx from the timeline so she's also fine. At one point there were plans for a third game to fill out a trilogy, Chrono Break. Masato Kato said all the CT and CC characters would be there as sort of an all-star team.

Let's not forget CT ends with Schala stuck with Lavos. By the end of Cross Lavos is finally dealt with and Schala is freed. Crono and Marle are never mentioned as being in danger, so I think the CT cast actually ends up better in Cross than they do in the original game

Chrono Cross is a fascinating sequel. It dives headfirst into the deep questions Chrono Trigger starts to raise. What are the unintended consequences of changing the past through time travel? Have you considered that stopping this evil being and altering history could also erase a lot of good people that had nothing to do with these stakes?

Crono, Marle and Lucca all die between CT and CC, that's official. As far as getting rid of Lynx and thus saving Lucca, I don't remember thinking that that was implied in CC but it's been a long while since I played that game.

CC tried way too hard in my book. Certainly a noble attempt but, looking back, it fell rather flat.

Although this track is one of my all time favourite JRPG tracks



It's pretty cool how CC's OST used a lot of acoustic guitars, we don't get a lot of that in games these days (although more so in indie titles)
 
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Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
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Great evidence...why should I take the word of the director and writer over that.

Have they spoken about it? Last I checked someone high up said something happened to Crono and Marle but wouldn't say what and if they made it out.

I know I thought they all died when I got to the end of Disc 1 in CC but, like I said, that was 18 years ago now.
 

No Fun Shogun

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May 1, 2011
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They were literal ghosts walking on a beach and they didn't appear in yhe sequel despite being powerful demigod beaters following the events of Chrono Trigger.

.... yeah.... they're dead. And even if they weren't dead, Dalton undoing the world order is still character and immersion breaking.
 

TheDoldrums

Registered User
May 3, 2016
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They were literal ghosts walking on a beach and they didn't appear in yhe sequel despite being powerful demigod beaters following the events of Chrono Trigger.

.... yeah.... they're dead. And even if they weren't dead, Dalton undoing the world order is still character and immersion breaking.

I was having these same arguments on GameFAQS 15 years ago. There was a Kato interview floating around where he laid out his Chrono Break idea that had Kid partnering with the CT gang, but apparently I can't easily find that right now so I'll try and do it the hard way.

One of the more subtle themes of the Chrono series is that the planet is a sentient being, nudging our heroes to stop Lavos from the destruction it recognizes will happen.

From the Fiona's Forest sidequest.

Robo: I realized something during these past four hundred years. I believe we
may have been incorrect in our assumption that Lavos was responsible for
the creation of the Gates.

Marle: What do you mean?

Robo: It is not a certainty, but I have come to believe it possible that some
entity wished for us to witness these events. Perhaps it wanted us to see
all of these various ages. Alternately, it may have wished to see them
for itself. It seems almost as though it was reflecting on the days of
its past.


Ayla: Ayla know. Person die, see life pass by. Elder say!

Frog: Before death claims a man, he is made to bear witness a second time to
those memories engraved most deeply upon his heart. There may be fond
memories among them, yes. But often as not, the ones which grieve us are
the most profound.

Robo: Knowing the end is approaching likely reactivates dormant feelings of
regret, and desire to return to moments in the past.

Marle: Do you suppose that will happen when our time comes?

Lucca: Probably... Who knows?

Marle: Is there a point in time you'd want to return to, Lucca?

Lucca: No, not...not really.

Marle: I'm sorry, I probably shouldn't have asked.

Lucca: No, it's okay. It's just something I don't like to think about too much.

Frog: But even if Lavos did not open the Gates, his fate is clearly bound to
that of the one who did. Lavos has played a role in every age we've seen.

Magus: Who do you think it is?

Robo: It is unknown to me whose memories these are. It is likely an entity
greater than any of us. Perhaps we will not know until our journey has
come to an end. Shall we turn in for the night?

It's more plain spelled out at the end of the game.

Lucca: Do you remember that talk we had?

Marle: You mean about whether our lives flash by before we die?

Lucca: Yeah. I get the feeling that...entity is finally at rest, too.

Marle: Yes, I feel it, too.

DXUCwyI.jpg


Now comes Chrono Cross. From the introductory text in the manual.

The dream our planet once had
Defeated the darkness
And brought forth a brighter future.
However, this was also the dawn of
A new nightmare...

The final battle over the legendary treasure,
"The Frozen Flame"...
A battle between dragons, humans, and fate
That will surpass even space and time...
Is about to begin...

Our planet's dream
Has not yet ended

Now here's what we know about the "ghosts" in Chrono Cross.

- They're children, younger than they even were in CT despite the game taking place 20 years later
- Their knowledge and attitudes are vastly different than their known characteristics
- Their words are intended to push the Cross cast to destroy the evil threatening the planet
- Belthasar is alive in Chrono Cross. We know he can create illusions. He has the power to appear as a ghost

My interpretation is that the Belthasar is manifesting these illusions as a proxy for the planets desires. We never get confirmations or even hints of Crono or Marle being in danger or dead aside from these manifestations. Simply taking these illusionss as proof that they're dead is overly simplistic in a very complicated story.
 

Shareefruck

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Apr 2, 2005
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Man.. that 2014 'poll' that's been brought up here was just everyone submitting their own top 10 list to the poster running it, they tallied up the score according to point totals (1st = 10p, 10th = 1p) and then released the top 50 counting down 10 at a time.

I put both Metroid Prime (in my top 3) and Super Metroid (in my bottom 3) into my list. Prime made it in the late 40's, and I was like okay most people probably ranked Super Metroid higher so it should be coming up soon. 30-40, nope, 20-30, nope, 10-20, nope... so I was thinking wow did it really make the top 10? But no... I was the only one to give it a single vote. Metroid Prime made the top 50 because of my high vote, but otherwise only received one other low vote from another poster.

I think Super Metroid has been mentioned a couple of times now, so where the heck were all you guys back then?
Scoffing at the direction that video games had gone and ignoring this sub-forum completely. :p:

My interest in the medium only started to become re-ignited after catching up with that wave of Indie games after the 2010s (Inside/Limbo/Celeste/Journey/Towerfall in particular-- the Cuphead/Sonic Mania/Undertale/Hollow Knight hype really pulled me in as well, although they haven't fully won me over to the same degree).
 
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RandV

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That's right. I call downtime periods of time when you are "on rails" and have to ride the section out in order to get back into the thick of it/in control of your character.

I am no fan of grinding but it is gameplay so I can't call it down time.

This part just really comes down to a matter of opinion. Some people seem to feel that since it's a game it's best if there's always gameplay, and typically for story will hold up Half Life as the gold standard. JRPG's though have always been more story driven games, and if you want to tell a good story sometimes you need to take control away from the player for plot or character development.

While some devs certainly got carried away with this idea once they started down it (late PS1 to PS2 era), I'd hold Suikoden II up as a gold standard. Suikoden I was a bit more old school in that cut scenes were limited and quick, it was mostly 'gameplay', while Suikoden II added numerous 2-5 minute "on rails" sections throughout the game that were used to build the plot and character development making the story/game far more impactful.

And yes while it was never a turn off for me sometimes the gameplay in older JRPG's could be considered downtime. In particular if you're exploring and need to back track, having unlimited random battles vs limited on screen enemies can make a huge difference. Also you have to look at the flow of the encounters as well, in some older games if you used a multi-target spell, or got hit by one, it could take like 5-10 seconds reading the damage dealt one target at a time. And while the games improved a lot in this regard starting late in the SNES cycle, they went downhill again in a different direction with the PS1 when FFVII introduced and got carried away with lengthy and unskippable battle animations.

But back to Chrono Trigger it falls into the light on story/interruption but smooth on gameplay category which gives it a really good accessible wide appeal to go back and play today.
 

Frankie Blueberries

Allergic to draft picks
Jan 27, 2016
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Scoffing at the direction that video games had gone and ignoring this sub-forum completely. :p:

My interest in the medium only started to become re-ignited after catching up with that wave of Indie games after the 2010s (Inside/Limbo/Celeste/Journey/Towerfall in particular-- the Cuphead/Sonic Mania/Undertale/Hollow Knight hype really pulled me in as well, although they haven't fully won me over to the same degree).

Did you ever give Braid or Shadow Complex a shot?
 

Do Make Say Think

& Yet & Yet
Jun 26, 2007
51,167
9,909
My interest in the medium only started to become re-ignited after catching up with that wave of Indie games after the 2010s (Inside/Limbo/Celeste/Journey/Towerfall in particular-- the Cuphead/Sonic Mania/Undertale/Hollow Knight hype really pulled me in as well, although they haven't fully won me over to the same degree).

A lot of those games are why I always shake my head when people say gaming isn't what it used to be. It's never been better in terms of options available and even in terms of prices with the Steam sales, GOG and the list goes on.

The golden age of 1997-2007 was an age of discovery and boundaries getting pushed so it's a very different environment from now due to the big studios who are very risk averse with their big projects, but it just takes a little peek beyond the AAA stuff to see things are as good as they have ever been.
 

Commander Clueless

Hiya, hiya. Pleased to meetcha.
Sep 10, 2008
15,298
3,017
Scoffing at the direction that video games had gone and ignoring this sub-forum completely. :p:

My interest in the medium only started to become re-ignited after catching up with that wave of Indie games after the 2010s (Inside/Limbo/Celeste/Journey/Towerfall in particular-- the Cuphead/Sonic Mania/Undertale/Hollow Knight hype really pulled me in as well, although they haven't fully won me over to the same degree).

I think the indie surge brought a lot of gamers back.

Somehow, after all this time, big gaming companies are constantly shocked that people like variety.
 

Ceremony

blahem
Jun 8, 2012
113,243
15,504
Hmm, I could've sworn it was Chrono Trigger that won the last time. It was Zelda after all.
 

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