Here is what I don't understand about the league/our organization

[Ogelthorpe]

many years ago 66 was taking a pounding, when one rick t. skated up to their star player and told him that if they ever do that again that he would take his knees out. the stuff with 66 ended........it can be done if you have the guys that will do it.

Exactly, Tocchet didn't challenge a goon to a fight, he told the other team's star he would be next, and other teams knew he wasn't bluffing. You have someone do something to another team's star, they will know it isn't a bluff.

 

[Jedi Pengu*]

many years ago 66 was taking a pounding, when one rick t. skated up to their star player and told him that if they ever do that again that he would take his knees out. the stuff with 66 ended........it can be done if you have the guys that will do it.

For every action, there is a re-action. Universe says so. OV and company will get their due. Rangers/Caps need to play again first round, its become quite a rivalry in the playoffs and it will most likely go 7. Hope Islanders win the East and draw Boston/Philly/Florida. Watch the Metro destroy itself while we play actual skill hockey in the Atlantic bracket.

 

[billybudd]

MJ is to blame for the lack of retaliation. Last change at home, Ovie still on the ice, he could of sent Lappy, Downie, Bort and Despres on the ice to go after Ovie. He didn't. He put out the first line. And they made a joke of themselves.

As for the way the games are officiated, it is nothing short of deliberate now. There's been enough instances that support situational reffing and using powerplays as a tool for manufactured excitement rather than deterrence to break the rules.

Refs are really just out there now to add drama and controversy rather than to enforce the rules. And its so damn obvious that if they are still doing it then obviously they are being told to.

He's actually subject to a fine and suspension if he sends out his fourth line in that situation. Ron Rolston precedent.

It's ridiculous, but that's Colin Campbell's NHL for you.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Do I want this fourth-line enforcer/grinder to be able to play? Obviously. That being said; I'd take Steve MacIntyre over an out of prime mediocre player to begin with Craig Adams. Big Mac can at least one thing well. What does Adams provide? You better not say the ability to kill penalties because that's a horse **** excuse.

At least killing penalties contributes to the team winning/losing. Fighting does ****-all for the team besides some horse crap about feeling better that someone will "stick-up" for them.

 

[td_ice]

many years ago 66 was taking a pounding, when one rick t. skated up to their star player and told him that if they ever do that again that he would take his knees out. the stuff with 66 ended........it can be done if you have the guys that will do it.

I remember hearing that story.


It was against the Rangers, and Mario was getting a rough time on an early shift. Tocch let it be known to the entire Rangers bench, "next person to touch 66 and I take out Messier's knees." Apparently no one touched Mario the rest of the way.

 

[PensPlz]

He's actually subject to a fine and suspension if he sends out his fourth line in that situation. Ron Rolston precedent.

It's ridiculous, but that's Colin Campbell's NHL for you.

This team needs a martyr, someone to believe in. Why shouldn't MJ be that person who isn't going to take his stars being targeted even if it means being suspended? I mean, it would probably be a good thing if he got disciplined for sending out the 4th line, so then he could appeal it and finally state a case of how these games are being officiated. Make a case that if refs did their ****ing jobs, he wouldn't have to take matters into his own hands to protect his players.

But honestly, thinking of it, even if we did go after him, there isn't a person on our roster Ovie couldn't handle himself against. Would all be for nothing.

 

[Freeptop]

I'm still on the fence about OV's intentions

Look at his hand positions on the stick, and the position of the stick blade when he pulls the stick back. Then ask yourself how on Earth the puck would have gone anywhere he wanted to if Letang hadn't been there and he'd hit the puck that way.

To believe Ovechkin's story that he was trying to shoot the puck would mean that you'd have to believe he was just trying some innovative new way to shoot the puck by putting both hands at the top of his stick and hitting the puck with the back of the heel...

 

[PaulieWalnuts]

Baseball has a way to self police, the NHL has lost that ability (the Pens for sure). It's almost like because of the Matt Cooke era, it's like this team doesn't want to push it and that may be because of Mario's past statements. To hell with that though, stand up for yourself.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Baseball has a way to self police, the NHL has lost that ability (the Pens for sure). It's almost like because of the Matt Cooke era, it's like this team doesn't want to push it and that may be because of Mario's past statements. To hell with that though, stand up for yourself.

And it's a mess of "unwritten rules". You don't want that level of crap in the NHL, though it's not far off.

Clean hit on a player = 10 man scrum ASAP is the same as You Took too Long to Round the Bases = I'm hitting your star player near the neck

 

[djt153]

max lapierre going after some other 4th liner was the perfect example of how the pens self police. why not take a run at backstrom or holtby, similarly slash ovechkin, etc if getting revenge is truly the goal. otherwise just play physical hockey that sends a message between the whistles. the way the pens go about things now is just counterproductive.

 

[PensPlz]

max lapierre going after some other 4th liner was the perfect example of how the pens self police. why not take a run at backstrom or holtby, similarly slash ovechkin, etc if getting revenge is truly the goal. otherwise just play physical hockey that sends a message between the whistles. the way the pens go about things now is just counterproductive.

Honestly... Will all the rules and fines and suspensions to coaches being talked about, the only loophole to "self police" in this league is to grab someone and force them to fight you. Look at Emery on Holtby ("just protect yourself"), Tootoo on Bortuzzo (the second time), Vorchek on Scuds, Thornton on Orpik (without the slewfoot/head hitting off the ice).... why don't we do this? Mario?

 

[PaulieWalnuts]

And it's a mess of "unwritten rules". You don't want that level of crap in the NHL, though it's not far off.

Clean hit on a player = 10 man scrum ASAP is the same as You Took too Long to Round the Bases = I'm hitting your star player near the neck

Not really a mess, it's about intent in baseball. There's a difference between a 98mph fastball at someone vs getting hit with a 88mph curve ball and players know the difference. It's an eye for an eye. You hit the 8th place batter the other team isn't coming after your cleanup hitter. Whack Letang, we chop down Carlson.

 

[Winger for Hire]

Not really a mess, it's about intent in baseball. There's a difference between a 98mph fastball at someone vs getting hit with a 88mph curve ball and players know the difference. It's an eye for an eye. You hit the 8th place batter the other team isn't coming after your cleanup hitter. Whack Letang, we chop down Carlson.

When Willie Mays and Don Drysdale were playing the game, that's how it worked.

That's not how it works now. My unwritten rulebook is slightly different than the one you follow and it's different than the ones others follow.

I guarantee you if Jordy Mercer goes wide and cleats up into second and catches Tommy Le Stella, the Cubs are coming back at Cutch next at bat... and it's not going to be an 88MPH curveball. You're getting steam coming between the numbers, if you have a classy pitcher, or more likely towards the head if you have a younger idiot on the mound.

Anyways, they have their parallels, but it's not the same thing. It's not an eye for en eye in baseball. It's not even an eye for an eye in hockey.

You can agree or disagree with this, I don't care, but I don't think this needs to continue in this thread. It's already bogged down with antiquated ways of thinking and playing hockey. It doesn't need to add (more of) baseball's terrible unwritten rules to it.

 

[billybudd]

This team needs a martyr, someone to believe in. Why shouldn't MJ be that person who isn't going to take his stars being targeted even if it means being suspended? I mean, it would probably be a good thing if he got disciplined for sending out the 4th line, so then he could appeal it and finally state a case of how these games are being officiated. Make a case that if refs did their ****ing jobs, he wouldn't have to take matters into his own hands to protect his players.

But honestly, thinking of it, even if we did go after him, there isn't a person on our roster Ovie couldn't handle himself against. Would all be for nothing.

There are guys that can get away with it and guys who cannot.

If MJ sends Downie out there and tells him to break OV's ankle, he's going to get a $100k fine and Downie will be sitting for 30 games.

Conversely, if Dave Tippett sends Shane Doan out there to do the exact same thing (which he'd be happy to do), there's no fine for the coach and Doan gets, at most, 2 or 3 games. Possibly nothing.

But yes. The primary problem is the roster, not the approach taken by it or the coaches. If a forward isn't a threat to score 30, he better be huge, ill-tempered, fast, something other than merely present.

This is just the way it's gonna be until Colin Campbell gets replaced by, like, Joe Sakic.

 

[NeedleInTheHay]

There are guys that can get away with it and guys who cannot.

If MJ sends Downie out there and tells him to break OV's ankle, he's going to get a $100k fine and Downie will be sitting for 30 games.

Conversely, if Dave Tippett sends Shane Doan out there to do the exact same thing (which he'd be happy to do), there's no fine for the coach and Doan gets, at most, 2 or 3 games. Possibly nothing.

But yes. The primary problem is the roster, not the approach taken by it or the coaches. If a forward isn't a threat to score 30, he better be huge, ill-tempered, fast, something other than merely present.

This is just the way it's gonna be until Colin Campbell gets replaced by, like, Joe Sakic.

Just curious, but how do you know Shane Doan would "be happy" to break Ovi's ankle?

 

[PaulieWalnuts]

When Willie Mays and Don Drysdale were playing the game, that's how it worked.

That's not how it works now. My unwritten rulebook is slightly different than the one you follow and it's different than the ones others follow.

I guarantee you if Jordy Mercer goes wide and cleats up into second and catches Tommy Le Stella, the Cubs are coming back at Cutch next at bat... and it's not going to be an 88MPH curveball. You're getting steam coming between the numbers, if you have a classy pitcher, or more likely towards the head if you have a younger idiot on the mound.

Anyways, they have their parallels, but it's not the same thing. It's not an eye for en eye in baseball. It's not even an eye for an eye in hockey.

You can agree or disagree with this, I don't care, but I don't think this needs to continue in this thread. It's already bogged down with antiquated ways of thinking and playing hockey. It doesn't need to add (more of) baseball's terrible unwritten rules to it.

Firstly your talking about a totally different play. Throwing at and hitting a player and the retaliation that can occur vs. a play out in the field. I can only tell you how I was taught to play baseball and I've played it my entire life. In your scenario either Mercer is getting plunked or we're going in extremely hard at 2b next time we get a chance. If LaStella was the best player on the Cubs, your scenario might play out that way (go after our best, we go after yours because there really isn't a chance to do that to a center fielder but at the plate).

As far as how it relates to Hockey, if the NHL wants to base fines and suspensions solely off injuries only and not unnecessary dangerous play that is intended to (but fails) to injure, I'm surprised we haven't yet seen more of it.

 

[Ogelthorpe]

There are guys that can get away with it and guys who cannot.

If MJ sends Downie out there and tells him to break OV's ankle, he's going to get a $100k fine and Downie will be sitting for 30 games.

Conversely, if Dave Tippett sends Shane Doan out there to do the exact same thing (which he'd be happy to do), there's no fine for the coach and Doan gets, at most, 2 or 3 games. Possibly nothing.

But yes. The primary problem is the roster, not the approach taken by it or the coaches. If a forward isn't a threat to score 30, he better be huge, ill-tempered, fast, something other than merely present.

This is just the way it's gonna be until Colin Campbell gets replaced by, like, Joe Sakic.

Exactly this. That is why I mentioned Kunitz as the person to 2 hand Ovi. He is not a repeat offender, he was a 30 goal scorer, and a Canadian Olympian......He would get 5 games max, and MJ wouldn't get fined because he had his top scoring line out. So Kunitz misses 5 games and Ovi misses 25.

By doing it this way it also opens up the possibility of recreating the Tocchet scenario in the playoffs....."Hey Rangers, if Staal takes one more shot at Sid, we are going to make Nash's ankle look just like Ovechkin's" It may make them think if there is past precedence to make them believe it's not just a bluff.

 

[wgknestrick]

Its funny how you guys think that 20-30yo millionaires who are in top physical condition, are #1 afraid of anything, and that you could easily influence their behavior with a 10sec (at most) fight (that is ensured to be broken up as soon as it hits the ground) against a player who is most likely considerably smaller than them. Also remember that this bad behavior is most likely what enables them to make those millions of dollars.

We think some PIT jersey ogre has power over these ogres? Only the league can control these guys by enforcing the rules, thus making this kind of play a detriment to winning hockey games, and therefore detrimental to making millions of dollars playing hockey.

 

[lastcupever75]

No one in this organization strikes fear into anyone. This is going continue until this organization changes their views.

$$

and the answer isnt just to have a couple of enforcer types on the roster to look after the rest of the team. its to have guys all through out the line up who can fend for themselves

they are a long way away

 

[Ugene Magic]

Exactly, Tocchet didn't challenge a goon to a fight, he told the other team's star he would be next, and other teams knew he wasn't bluffing. You have someone do something to another team's star, they will know it isn't a bluff.

The same as Cooke going up to Mike Richards when he was doing all his stuff to Malkin.

 

[lastcupever75]

After Ovechkin did what he did there wasn't much that we could have done. It would be nice if we had someone who could be physical and initiate against the other team and get them off their game. Bortuzzo did it against New Jersey and Jagr one game this year from what I remember.

I'm not looking for thuggery but just initiate and have the opponent on their heels. And if it happens to us, just be cool man. We were playing fine against the Capitals until that non-call.

agreed, but its tough to initiate when there's not many who have your back

 

[lastcupever75]

This. Can't believe it still even needs to be said at this point. Grown men that make their living by agitating and taking liberties aren't going to stop because they're scared of some bum we have on our bench. I wish the people advocating for getting enforcers would just be honest and admit that they simply like to watch people fight and stop pretending it's about some good-of-the-team nonsense.

I hate to rain on the parade but there's no way to stop guys from targeting our best players. It's always going to happen. You could maybe argue that having a dominant PP could kind of be a minor deterrent but I think even that is wishful thinking. Again, there are guys in this league that are paid specifically to agitate and frustrate top players. They aren't going anywhere.

how about just getting a tougher team. a bigger, physical, tougher team.
teams like those that are manhandling us these last few years

 

[vikingGoalie]

This may be looked at by some people as classless, but I have said before, the answer is to return fire in like kind. Kunitz can't out hit Ovi, can't beat him in a fight, but he can break his ankle with a 2 hander. Some of you may look down at me for saying this, but if you take out a few of the other team's star players, other teams will quit messing with yours. I guarantee if Ovi was out 8 weeks with a broken ankle, he would think twice about his dirty tactics next time he played us.

If losing Kunitz for 5 games sends enough of a message to make the league see we are going to be punching bags anymore, it is a suspension that is well worth it.

Or why even Kunitz. Why not have Downie, Adams, Maxim L, or any other non-top 9 forward. Simply skate over and two hand ovechkin. If I was on the Penguins team I would have done it. Then simply skated over towards the penalty box right after. (or runway)

A game where the Refs don't call the rules, and things like this don't get policed by the league, that is pretty much the only deterrent to guys like ovechkin.

I mean where would be right now if he does that and Letang either gets a broken ankle or a bad concussion and it is either career threatening or done until next season. Ovechkin doesn't respect any other player, pretty sure he wouldn't lose one minute of sleep if he had ended Letang's career on that play.

So I say break his ankle in kind. It's the wild west out there any more.

 

[Terrapin]

This. Can't believe it still even needs to be said at this point. Grown men that make their living by agitating and taking liberties aren't going to stop because they're scared of some bum we have on our bench. I wish the people advocating for getting enforcers would just be honest and admit that they simply like to watch people fight and stop pretending it's about some good-of-the-team nonsense.

I hate to rain on the parade but there's no way to stop guys from targeting our best players. It's always going to happen. You could maybe argue that having a dominant PP could kind of be a minor deterrent but I think even that is wishful thinking. Again, there are guys in this league that are paid specifically to agitate and frustrate top players. They aren't going anywhere.

I prefer to take the words of current and former players over random internet guys that may or may not have ever held a stick. When agitators say they like tough guys because they enable them to do their jobs better, then I take their word for it. When the superstars say they like having tough guys because it gives them more space, and they have to deal with less cheap shots, I'll take their word for it. When every coach and player in the entire league say they want to police themselves, I'll take their word for it.

So you guys can hold your breath and stomp your feet all you want, wishing the league was more European. But those of us that deal in reality know that we were a much better team when we had a roster full of mean, tough SOBs, because those are typically the types of teams that have the most success.

Mike Rupp was on the Fan earlier and said there's only two ways to deal with this stuff. Either completely ignore it and beat them on the scoreboard, or answer the bell physically and violently enough to prevent it from happening again. The Pens do neither, and that's the problem.

Nobody is saying having a 4th line of Macintyre-Scott-McGratton would guarantee Sid and Geno never get messed with. But having even one of those guys, or a guy like Neil, Peluso, etc may certainly limit that stuff.

What's the teams biggest Achilles heel (beside PP)? It's teams getting under their skin right, and the Pens losing their minds. That issue only began occurring once we rid ourselves of any toughness. Was never a problem when we had Laraque, Ruutu, Roberts, Godard, Rupp, etc.

 

[PensPlz]

There are guys that can get away with it and guys who cannot.

If MJ sends Downie out there and tells him to break OV's ankle, he's going to get a $100k fine and Downie will be sitting for 30 games.

Conversely, if Dave Tippett sends Shane Doan out there to do the exact same thing (which he'd be happy to do), there's no fine for the coach and Doan gets, at most, 2 or 3 games. Possibly nothing.

But yes. The primary problem is the roster, not the approach taken by it or the coaches. If a forward isn't a threat to score 30, he better be huge, ill-tempered, fast, something other than merely present.

This is just the way it's gonna be until Colin Campbell gets replaced by, like, Joe Sakic.

Not saying break his ankle, I would actually be very opposed to that... but sending Downie or someone else out to break his nose? Yes. Downie won't be sitting for 30 games and the message will be sent.