Speculation: Hawks & Individual Award Finalist Snubs- Historically Unprecedented?

[member 151739]

no.

but he deserved to be a finalist.

i'm fine with the finalists...and the 3 named were my top 3 = crosby, ovechkin, tavares. my next two were kane, toews.

Crosby won't win the Hart. The Lindsay was already given to him as far I am concerned. It's Tavares or Ovechkin. They both deserve it.

 

[Sir Psycho T]

Tavares deserved to be a finalist, it's Ovie that's the wrong choice, I would have Toews, Kane even Bobrovsky before I put Ovie on that list.

 

[madgoat33]

Good article by LeBrun.

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/id/24193/toews-gets-this-nod-for-hart-not-ovechkin

that's a crap argument. toews and ovechkin had very similar statline the first like 20 games and ovi was playing a new position, for a new coach with a new system (3rd in 2 years) and with a new center. then we all know what happened in the second half of the year. so basically his argument is that because the hawks were a much better team the first half of the season, toews was more valuable. pleasssssse. having kane also kills toews since he led the hawks and wc in scoring.

 

[Pailhead]

Yeah, that's because the Hawks are a much better team than the Islanders.

The best player on a low-seeded team doesn't win the Hart every year. People always fail to look at Hart voting at a relative level. The 8th place team is a lot closer to missing the playoffs than a 1st place team. Because of that, it is ridiculous to use "X wouldn't have made the playoffs without Y" as reasoning for who deserves the Hart.

Take away a Toews or Kane from the Hawks and they fall in the standings significantly. Take away Tavares from the Islanders and they also fall significantly. That's the justification people should be looking at.

Obviously if you take the best player off a fringe playoff team, they're not going to be in the playoffs anymore. The same isn't true for the best player on the best team in the NHL, but it's utterly silly to use that as a knock against that player. It doesn't make any sense.

I think Toews or Kane should be there instead of Tavares. Neither of them should win it, but they were more valuable than Tavares this year. Better and more valuable.

Crosby or Ovechkin will win it.

Exactly...take Suter of the Wild and they miss the playoffs. Take Datsyuk of the Wings and they miss the playoffs. Why won't Suter/Datsyuk finish anywhere near Tavares in the final voting? Why aren't they there in place of Crosby? Pittsburgh still makes the playoffs without Crosby.

 

[Bubba88]

That gives him a case for the Lindsey, but by definition, does not make him a better Hart candidate. Tavares was more valuable to his team, they're not in the playoffs without him.

going by this, Crosby shouldn't even be in consideration. Just look at the Pens record with Crosby out. They still won without missing a beat. He still has to be seen as the frontrunner.

It's amazing that the best Team in the league will not win one individual award

 

[HockeySauce]

Can't believe both got snubbed for the Hart.

Instead, a player that missed a quarter of the season, in which his team still won what? 10 of 12 games? And a player who was great for 20 games, and also plays on a great offensive team, gets the nod.

Alright.

Obviously, there's huge Eastern bias. But, even so, it's incredibly disappointing that Toews nor Kane were nominated.

 

[HockeySauce]

Tavares deserved to be a finalist, it's Ovie that's the wrong choice, I would have Toews, Kane even Bobrovsky before I put Ovie on that list.

In order of least deserving:

1. Crosby
2. Ovechkin

At least Ovechkin played the full year.

Getzlaf and Toews/Kane (Kane, IMO) should be there in place of both those guys. Goalies hardly ever win it, Bob can have the Vezina.

I'd of had it as:

1. Kane
2. Tavares
3. Getzlaf

 

[member 151739]

How does Ovechkin not deserve his finalist status, exactly? He was almost PPG the first half of the season. He then put the team on his back the second half, leading them to the division title. Didn't he score like 23 goals in 24 games? That's unheard of.

 

[Sir Psycho T]

This guy is an MVP finalist?

 

[HockeySauce]

How does Ovechkin not deserve his finalist status, exactly? He was almost PPG the first half of the season. He then put the team on his back the second half, leading them to the division title. Didn't he score like 23 goals in 24 games? That's unheard of.

It's most certainly not unheard of. It was a 20-game stretch. Crosby, Stamkos, Ovechkin, Kovalchuk.. go back through there seasons and you'll find a lot of goals in that kind of a stretch.

Not to mention, he's playing in the Southeast, against the Hurricans, Lightning and Panthers, and facing great goaltenders like Anders Lindback, Jacob Markstrom and Dan Ellis.. Do you think he would have had those kinds of numbers, playing in the Central? Nope.

The main point I was trying to make with Ovechkin, is that I'm sure a lot of posters with shrug Kane/Toews' snub with, "Well, they play on a stacked team". Is that not true of Ovechkin? Halfway trough the year, it would have been Ribeiro, not Ovechkin, who most would have picked as that team's MVP. Ribeiro had 49 points in 48 games and backstrom was a PpG as well. The only other player close to a PpG on Chicago, besides Toews/Kane, was Sharp, who missed half the season and still only had 20 points in 28 games.

Kane was great from day 1. He finished a point behind Ovechkin, in one less game, facing better teams, better goaltenders, and with lesser linemates.

Getzlaf was by far Anaheim's best player. And again, didn't have the luxury of playing against the kinds of teams/goalies OV got to face, but instead played the Kings, Sharks, Coyotes and Stars, who all have great goaltenders (though, it's well-documented I'm no fan of Smith).

 

[member 151739]

Not to mention, he's playing in the Southeast, against the Hurricans, Lightning and Panthers, and facing great goaltenders like Anders Lindback, Jacob Markstrom and Dan Ellis.. Do you think he would have had those kinds of numbers, playing in the Central? Nope.

Oh, well let's strip Martin St. Louis of the Art Ross then. Those points don't matter since they were against Southeast teams.

You don't need to argue on Kane's behalf, I'm totally on that ship. Kane deserved a nod, but I'm honestly fine with the finalists.

 

[HockeySauce]

Oh, well let's strip Martin St. Louis of the Art Ross then. Those points don't matter since they were against Southeast teams.

You don't need to argue on Kane's behalf, I'm totally on that ship. Kane deserved a nod, but I'm honestly fine with the finalists.

Do you not agree, that the competition is clearly weaker in the Southeast, relative to the rest of the divisions? Without getting into an East/West thing (I believe most West fans know the answer to that anyways, and a few honest East fans too), is that not pretty much undisputed?

 

[member 151739]

Do you not agree, that the competition is clearly weaker in the Southeast, relative to the rest of the divisions? Without getting into an East/West thing (I believe most West fans know the answer to that anyways, and a few honest East fans too), is that not pretty much undisputed?

Injuries did play a part in that. Theodore and Ward was out in the latter half. Theodore is simply a solid goalie, but Ward is a top 10 goalie in the league. Their porous defense doesn't reflect that, but he really is. Ryan Miller had a phenomenal season considering the Sabres' horrific defense. I'm not really comparing them, just their situations. Yeah, the Southeast is currently a weaker division compared to others, but Ovechkin still stepped up and carried the team. Not as much as Tavares, obviously, who I think deserves the Hart the most out of the three finalists.

 

[Sir Psycho T]

Oh, well let's strip Martin St. Louis of the Art Ross then. Those points don't matter since they were against Southeast teams.

You don't need to argue on Kane's behalf, I'm totally on that ship. Kane deserved a nod, but I'm honestly fine with the finalists.

There is a difference, one is an award based soley on stats, who had the most points. There is nothing else.

The other is who is the most valuable player. Sorry but a guy who had almost the same number of points like Toews, who plays C, is a great 2 way player, and a leader in FO% vs a guy who soley scores.

Why didn't Carmelo win the MVP in the NBA then, he carried his team into the play-offs and scored the most points?

With MVP your whole game matters not just points.

 

[HockeySauce]

Injuries did play a part in that. Theodore and Ward was out in the latter half. Theodore is simply a solid goalie, but Ward is a top 10 goalie in the league. Their porous defense doesn't reflect that, but he really is. Ryan Miller had a phenomenal season considering the Sabres' horrific defense. I'm not really comparing them, just their situations. Yeah, the Southeast is currently a weaker division compared to others, but Ovechkin still stepped up and carried the team. Not as much as Tavares, obviously, who I think deserves the Hart the most out of the three finalists.

I'm not saying they didn't, I'm just stating a fact. Beyond Theodore, the Panthers had tons of injuries which obviously hurt them.. but at the end of the day, it made it that much easier for whoever played against the Southeast the most (Southeast teams, like the Caps) to score and make plays. Even in a good year, the Southeast is clearly the weakest division in the NHL.

I think too many people get mesmerized by the amount of goals Ovechkin put up in the 2nd half. Was he great? Yes, he was. I'm no denying that. But, like most things, when you add a little context, can anyone make a real argument for having him over Toews, Kane or Getzlaf? I know I'm biased, but I can't. Ovechkin had an outstanding 20ish games. That shouldn't be enough to get him a Hart nod over players who were either (or both):

A) More consistent
B) Far better all-round players

Again, factoring the context, which IMO is pretty damning.

 

[Bubba88]

Not to mention, he's playing in the Southeast, against the Hurricans, Lightning and Panthers, and facing great goaltenders like Anders Lindback, Jacob Markstrom and Dan Ellis.. Do you think he would have had those kinds of numbers, playing in the Central? Nope.

Tavares, Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos, MSL and even Crosby wouldn't have the same high numbers playing in the Central or Pacific. I'm 100% confident that Kane would have won the Ross playing in the East next to Tavares or Giroux

 

[HockeySauce]

Tavares, Malkin, Ovechkin, Stamkos, MSL and even Crosby wouldn't have the same high numbers playing in the Central or Pacific. I'm 100% confident that Kane would have won the Ross playing in the East next to Tavares or Giroux

No argument here. The East, very simply, isn't as good as the West. It's clear as day. The only argument fans of teams from the East have is, "Then why doesn't a West team win the Cup every year"? As if 4-7 games, with injuries and everything else that goes on the playoffs, would actually determine which conference is better.

The only team I could see having as much success in the West as the East is the Bruins, because they play a physical, sound game and have great goaltending, to go a long with tons of balance.

 

[deytookerjaabs]

This guy is an MVP finalist?

That's awful.

 

[slappipappi]

If you read advanced stats that consider things like defence and whether players take more face-offs in the offensive zones (like the Sedins) vs. the defensive zone(like Bolland), Toews and Crosby are the two best players in the NHL. Crosby had a better per game average, but Toews had a better total for playing more games.

With Crosby being injured, there is a real good argument that Toews was indeed the most valuable player in the league.

With apologies to Kane, Toews is the Hawks leader and the player who leads their entire team defence.

 

[Any Colour You Like]

This guy is an MVP finalist?

Man alive, that is awful.

The Eastern bias, it hurts. Maybe, maybe, maybe, one incident like that is excusable, but not when you're in the MVP considerations. Especially not when there's somebody else probably more deserving than you.

Oh well, it doesn't matter, Ovie won't win, Toews wouldn't win, neither.

 

[MTP]

This guy is an MVP finalist?

Look at the contrast between Hillen busting his ass on that play and Ovechkin doing absolutely nothing.

 

[HockeySauce]

Look at the contrast between Hillen busting his ass on that play and Ovechkin doing absolutely nothing.

The damning part of that .gif is that Ovechkin's body language never changes. He was just as defeated when he entered as he was after they scored. No effort. No attempt to do anything. Just put the puck in and give me my minues, please.

 

[here come the]

If you read advanced stats that consider things like defence and whether players take more face-offs in the offensive zones (like the Sedins) vs. the defensive zone(like Bolland), Toews and Crosby are the two best players in the NHL. Crosby had a better per game average, but Toews had a better total for playing more games.

With Crosby being injured, there is a real good argument that Toews was indeed the most valuable player in the league.

With apologies to Kane, Toews is the Hawks leader and the player who leads their entire team defence.

Great post. The MVP is the player who adds the most value to his team as constructed. For me, the eye test backs up the statistics, Toews and Crosby were the two most valuable players this year. People also really underestimate the advantage of face offs, they're pretty much as important as zone starts and Toews is the 2nd best in the world. Also underrated about Toews value is the total poopstorm the center position on the Hawks would be if he wasn't there. I honestly think they're like the 7th seed at best without him.

 

[Bubba88]

it's about offense and hype, not who is good in all 3 zones and about who wins faceoffs, gets takeaways and helps his team most.

just look at the POs and Malkin and tell me he was good in that series despite his 100 assists

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

The only hardware that matters is Lord Stanley

When I started this thread, I knew that this sort of sentiment would be expressed, in some guise- and we all understand that winning the tall one at the end is every player's and fan's ultimate desire. That said, of the four major team sports, Hockey is the one with the richest tradition attendant upon its individual awards. Doubtless Hockey will continue to name winners for their individual awards, and as long as they do, there will be fans who remain interested in their role in history, and show some concern for whether the powers-that-be got it right.

Getting it right or not is less my point than the query "has anything like this happened before?" My preliminary inquiry only took me as far as the actual Presidents' Trophy has been awarded [starting 85-86]- and rocking around the tables, I sorted out the following:

In the > quarter-century since the initiation of the Presidents' Trophy, there have been eight occasions where that team was won the Jennings. In those eight years, there have been:

1- occasion where that team had the Art Ross trophy winner [Daniel Sedin, Vancouver 2010-11. Also, this marks the only example of a Pearson»»»*Lindsay winner.] This is sort of a self-selecting sample... because we're dealing with teams that are winning with defense... so this isn't surprising. The next item is, though...
1- instance where such a team had the Vezina winner [Ed Belfour, Chicago 1990-91]
1- time where they had the Hart winner [Chris Pronger, St. Louis 1999-2000... where he (naturally) also won the Norris and had perhaps the best season by a physically-oriented defenseman since the days of Doug Harvey] and speaking of Norrises...

3- occasions where they had the Norris winner [Pronger, above- Lidstrom, Detroit 2007-08, and Ray Bourque, Boston 1989-90]

The individual award that attaches most frequently to the Presidents'/Jennings combination is the Selke award... 5 times (not counting this year, since it's yet-to-be-determined), the Selke has gone to the Presidents'/Jennings team. [The two times it didn't were the Bourque/Pronger Norris campaigns already cited.]

*Latin c.u.m. is in the obscenity filter!