Has the speed of today's game neutralize the full effectiveness of skill players?

[Ziostilon]

The speed that today's game is played at, i think has increased in the past two years specifically (definitely arguable, since its just pure opinion)

Im not specifically focusing on foot speed. but rather the speed at which you play the game, make passes, thinking time.

Do you think that this speed, and agility at which you do things at... Has neutralized some of the skillsets that elite players have. They cannot demonstrate certain skills when the game is this much faster.

So maybe, just maybe. Malkin may already have a better skillset than Jagr but he just can't show it. Because things happen so much faster

Click to read more...

 

[Canadiens1958]

Shift Length

The speed that today's game is played at, i think has increased in the past two years specifically (definitely arguable, since its just pure opinion)

Im not specifically focusing on foot speed. but rather the speed at which you play the game, make passes, thinking time.

Do you think that this speed, and agility at which you do things at... Has neutralized some of the skillsets that elite players have. They cannot demonstrate certain skills when the game is this much faster.

So maybe, just maybe. Malkin may already have a better skillset than Jagr but he just can't show it. Because things happen so much faster

Shorter shift length has changed the way the game is played. Very rare that during one shift(30-45 seconds if that) a player has to use a significant part of his skillset.

When shifts would stretch beyond a minute, upwards of two or more in the O6 era. The players ability was tested at various levels. He could make a great offensive play and a great defensive play on one shift. Rarely happens today.

 

[Zine]

I think it has. With longer shifts in years past (06 era) you undoubtedly had a slower and less intense game. Players had more time and space to make decisions.

With today’s speed and intensity, it’s impossible for a player to take a regular 2 minute shift and still maintain peak performance throughout the shift and, hence, throughout the game.

Hockey of today is a high intensity, fast thinking, quick strike game. It’s not a free flowing and creative one.

 

[Hardyvan123]

The speed hasn't so much neutralized top players skills as it has bridged the gap between the best players in the NHL and all the other players.

The overall skillset of the grouping of NHL players has gone up, the top players are getting better in pure terms, ie bigger, faster and stronger, all the time while the bottom players are getting closer than the players in the past where the gap was much larger.

Speed isn't the only reason for this, training, coaching, fitness, nutrition, scouting is all better than the traing camp days of Phil Esposito where he would take a case of beer into the sauna.

Goaltending equipment and training techniques are also miles ahead of where it used to be as well.

There just isn't as much net to shoot at in todays game as there was on large goalies from the past like Gary Smith or Ken Dryden.

 

[Loto68]

So maybe, just maybe. Malkin may already have a better skillset than Jagr but he just can't show it. Because things happen so much faster

Jagr made the game be played at the speed he wished it to be played. If the game was moving too fast, he slowed it down, if it was too slow, he sped it up. If Malkin was as good as Jagr he would be able to do that too.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I agree Malkin might have a better skillset but Jagr just plain produced.

He is 5th all time in adjusted points (and would have been top 3 if he had stayed in the NHL).

Malkin has had a better start but needs to focus if he wants to be included in the same breadth as Jagr all time. Jagr took off in his 5th year and was a stud for a 10 year stretch

Let's see in 5 years how he has progressed.

 

[BraveCanadian]

The speed that today's game is played at, i think has increased in the past two years specifically (definitely arguable, since its just pure opinion)

Im not specifically focusing on foot speed. but rather the speed at which you play the game, make passes, thinking time.

Do you think that this speed, and agility at which you do things at... Has neutralized some of the skillsets that elite players have. They cannot demonstrate certain skills when the game is this much faster.

So maybe, just maybe. Malkin may already have a better skillset than Jagr but he just can't show it. Because things happen so much faster

The truly great players can force the game to be played at their speed.

Gretzky was always "2 steps ahead"

Lemieux made it seem like everyone else was playing in slow motion around him.

Jagr could step the game up or down with either his physical abilities or his incredible puck handling and puck protection.

Orr/Coffey would just plain blow past everyone with speed.

I don't think that the game has sped up all that much in the last couple of years. There is just a lack of these "special" type of players right now. We were spoiled for a while with so many of them overlapping careers.

Probably the closest one we have to that is Lidstrom and he doesn't stand out because he is primarily defensive and not a flashy player.

The Malkin's/Crosby's/Ovechkins are more on the level of Sakic/Yzerman/Bossy than the Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr.

 

[shazariahl]

The truly great players can force the game to be played at their speed.

Gretzky was always "2 steps ahead"

Lemieux made it seem like everyone else was playing in slow motion around him.

Jagr could step the game up or down with either his physical abilities or his incredible puck handling and puck protection.

Orr/Coffey would just plain blow past everyone with speed.

I don't think that the game has sped up all that much in the last couple of years. There is just a lack of these "special" type of players right now. We were spoiled for a while with so many of them overlapping careers.

The problem is, as you also mentioned so well, is that people WANT to see another Gretzky/Lemieux type of player. Even a Jagr. We try to build people like Crosby, Ovechkin, and Malkin into these guys, and try to convince ourselves they're "this generation's" players of the same caliber. But they aren't. They're the Bossy and Dionne level players, but not Gretzky or Lemieux. There's no shame in that - those are the two greatest offensive players of all time (at least peak - it's obvious Howe beats Lemieux for longevity and career).

People need to stop trying to compare the stars of today to the Hockey Gods of yesterday. Gretzky and Lemieux weren't just great players, they were titans that ruled the league between them for basically 20 years.

Probably the closest one we have to that is Lidstrom and he doesn't stand out because he is primarily defensive and not a flashy player.

The Malkin's/Crosby's/Ovechkins are more on the level of Sakic/Yzerman/Bossy than the Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr.

Completely agree. I do think the average talent in the league has improved, and the game itself is faster now. But that doesn't neutralize the better players at all, IMO. Jagr was breaking 120 points not too long ago, and that was towards the end of his NHL career.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Gretzky was always "2 steps ahead"



The Malkin's/Crosby's/Ovechkins are more on the level of Sakic/Yzerman/Bossy than the Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr.

Gretzky's mind might have been 2 steps ahead mentally but he didn't blow away defenders with his speed either, his game was based more on deception and planning rather than overall all out speed.

Crosby will be mentioned with with your 2nd group as he is younger and has done more and is a complete superstar compared to the other 2 who will probably fall between the 2 groups you have listed.

 

[Fredrik_71]

I don't think so. On the contrary I think the speed of todays game has opened up for skilled players. Smaller players have found a home and smaller players usually have more skills. I hated it during the 90s when during the draft all that mattered was size.

/Cheers

 

[kmad]

Gretzky's mind might have been 2 steps ahead mentally but he didn't blow away defenders with his speed either, his game was based more on deception and planning rather than overall all out speed.

Crosby will be mentioned with with your 2nd group as he is younger and has done more and is a complete superstar compared to the other 2 who will probably fall between the 2 groups you have listed.

I think Crosby will fall between those 2 groups. He'll be up there with Jagr and Lafleur.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Gretzky's mind might have been 2 steps ahead mentally but he didn't blow away defenders with his speed either, his game was based more on deception and planning rather than overall all out speed.

Crosby will be mentioned with with your 2nd group as he is younger and has done more and is a complete superstar compared to the other 2 who will probably fall between the 2 groups you have listed.

Yes I meant Gretzky's vision not that he was blowing people away with physical speed.

The point I was making is that there is a lack of those very special players right now no matter how much we want to build Ovechkin and Crosby up.

They are certainly excellent players but in my mind they are also a notch below the true titans we have seen in the past.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Vision and Execution

Yes I meant Gretzky's vision not that he was blowing people away with physical speed.

The point I was making is that there is a lack of those very special players right now no matter how much we want to build Ovechkin and Crosby up.

They are certainly excellent players but in my mind they are also a notch below the true titans we have seen in the past.

First the true greats - Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, Howe, Beliveau, Harvey,amongst others, never panicked, never rushed, they had a sense of exactly how much time they had, who was on the ice and what was possible. Gretzky's vision and anticipation were extraordinary but it was his speed and precision of execution that put everything together. Combined with the ability of linemates to convert the presented opportunities, be it a Blair MacDonald or a Jarri Kurri.

Today, Sidney Crosby has the same special qualities of the players listed above.When he is playing with Chris Kunitz and Bill Guerin, his usual linemates he is severely handicapped. They have NHL adequate straight ahead speed BUT their positioning in the offensive zone or stick/body positioning in front of the net combined with slow execution negates many of the chances that Crosby creates.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The speed and strategy of the game has surely affected skill players. How many clean breakaways and odd-man rushes do you see in a typical game anymore? For the most part, a player has to know what play he's going to make before he even receives the puck -- because as soon as he has it, a defender is going to be closing on him with perhaps a half-second to spare.

You can really see the difference on the rare occasion that an NHL player is matched up against a slightly slower speed of play. They pretty much make skill plays at will against all but elite competition.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Positioning

The speed and strategy of the game has surely affected skill players. How many clean breakaways and odd-man rushes do you see in a typical game anymore? For the most part, a player has to know what play he's going to make before he even receives the puck -- because as soon as he has it, a defender is going to be closing on him with perhaps a half-second to spare.

You can really see the difference on the rare occasion that an NHL player is matched up against a slightly slower speed of play. They pretty much make skill plays at will against all but elite competition.

Conversely how many wingers put themselves in optimum position in the defensive zone to be effective defensively while ready to accept a transition or break away pass?

Watch an NHL game an count the number of times that wingers turn incorrectly to change direction. Turn facing towards the crowd as opposed to facing into the middle of the rink. Also watch how often they control the puck along the boards while having a better view of the fans as opposed to the ice.

Just a waste of opportunities.

 

[Trottier]

Shorter shift length has changed the way the game is played. Very rare that during one shift(30-45 seconds if that) a player has to use a significant part of his skillset.

When shifts would stretch beyond a minute, upwards of two or more in the O6 era. The players ability was tested at various levels. He could make a great offensive play and a great defensive play on one shift. Rarely happens today.

Great post...and point rarely mention in the insufferable, overly simplistic "my generation of player is better than your generation!" blather that typically takes place on the main board.

To be sure, players continue to evolve. But the game dynamics, as you outline here, have changed, too and have had a marked impact on the tempo of play....

...which has both upside and a negative outcome.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Yes I meant Gretzky's vision not that he was blowing people away with physical speed.

The point I was making is that there is a lack of those very special players right now no matter how much we want to build Ovechkin and Crosby up.

They are certainly excellent players but in my mind they are also a notch below the true titans we have seen in the past.

I think that some other factors are that almost every player now blocks shots whereas in the past blocking shots was done by quite a bit fewer players and in the post Captain Video age teams prepare way better defensively for other teams.

Also I think along with the preparation that the hockey IQ level has gone up with all players in the league than in past times making it a more even playing field mentally for all players than the past where the greats where playing against some really not very good players in terms of skill, abilities and hockey IQ.

Future History will put Crosby up with the all time greats and AO as well, although his lack of playoff success is starting to hurt him a bit.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think that some other factors are that almost every player now blocks shots whereas in the past blocking shots was done by quite a bit fewer players and in the post Captain Video age teams prepare way better defensively for other teams.

Also I think along with the preparation that the hockey IQ level has gone up with all players in the league than in past times making it a more even playing field mentally for all players than the past where the greats where playing against some really not very good players in terms of skill, abilities and hockey IQ.

Future History will put Crosby up with the all time greats and AO as well, although his lack of playoff success is starting to hurt him a bit.

Teams and players are definitely coached in more detail now and have learned more "correct" responses to more situations that occur.

I'd still put forward that the Orrs and Gretzkys and Lemieuxs of the world would slice and dice through all that with ease. They would simply learn what the expected response was and then exploit it. They were all much better at adaptation or creativity than the average player at the time they played and certainly now.

I'll put forth my evidence: Lemieux & even Jagr's point totals during the post 1995 era even though they were in the downturns of their careers.

All this Crosby and Ovechkin hype still fails to explain to me how a 33-34 year old Jagr put up 123 points in 05-06. And we can all agree he wasn't as good as Gretzky and Lemieux but "close".

 

[Hardyvan123]

Teams and players are definitely coached in more detail now and have learned more "correct" responses to more situations that occur.

I'd still put forward that the Orrs and Gretzkys and Lemieuxs of the world would slice and dice through all that with ease. They would simply learn what the expected response was and then exploit it. They were all much better at adaptation or creativity than the average player at the time they played and certainly now.

I'll put forth my evidence: Lemieux & even Jagr's point totals during the post 1995 era even though they were in the downturns of their careers.

All this Crosby and Ovechkin hype still fails to explain to me how a 33-34 year old Jagr put up 123 points in 05-06. And we can all agree he wasn't as good as Gretzky and Lemieux but "close".

Weird jump from Orr to Lemieux and Jagr.

Couple of points here 05/06 was the 1st year after the lockout Cheechoo was the one season wonder with his leading the NHL in golas and yes Jagr had a great season at age 33-34 but why would he have not?

His "decline" actually occurred the following season down to 96 points as the new game with it's speed and other changes was making it more hard for the superstars to stand out as much as past superstars.

I think the main point to remember is that the game has had major changes throughout time and it has affected different players differently.

It's really hard to say how guys like Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux would do statwise in today's NHL, one thing to be sure is that their numbers today would be less than they had in their time.

It doesn't affect their greatness it just points out that the times and game in the NHL if different today.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Weird jump from Orr to Lemieux and Jagr.

Couple of points here 05/06 was the 1st year after the lockout Cheechoo was the one season wonder with his leading the NHL in golas and yes Jagr had a great season at age 33-34 but why would he have not?

His "decline" actually occurred the following season down to 96 points as the new game with it's speed and other changes was making it more hard for the superstars to stand out as much as past superstars.

I think the main point to remember is that the game has had major changes throughout time and it has affected different players differently.

It's really hard to say how guys like Orr, Gretzky and Lemieux would do statwise in today's NHL, one thing to be sure is that their numbers today would be less than they had in their time.

It doesn't affect their greatness it just points out that the times and game in the NHL if different today.

I don't know what Cheechoo has to do with anything. He got injured and was never the same player again.

The reason I bring up the fact that Jagr was 33-34 is that is generally well past most stars career years. ie. he wasn't at his peak any longer and he still has the highest post lockout point total.

Jagr is a great bridge between the Gretzky/Lemieux era and the "players are so much better now" crowd because his career overlaps both.

Even if you look at Jagr having 96 points at age 35 and admittedly in decline like you say.. that brings up serious questions to me about just how Crosby and Ovechkin are going to be considered up there with the Orr/Lemieux/Gretzkys..

Considering Crosby has had one season of 120 and Ovechkin has only reached 112. Basically they aren't much if at all better than a mid-30s Jagr.

The other thing that bothers me about the Crosby / Ovechkin hype is that they have not separated themselves in any way from the pack. They aren't better than the other stars in the league by 10 or 20 or 30 points on average.. they are clumped together with the rest.

They are great players but until they actually pull away from a past his prime Jagr or at least their own peers I'm going not going to reserve the all time great titles just yet... and stick to my point that the truly great players can change the pace of the game.

 

[Hardyvan123]

Thorton had 125 points in the 05/06 when Jagr had 123.

I think the biggest reason that guys like Crosby and AO can't separate themselves points wise like other guys in the past is that the overall game is much better today than the past and the gap between the 10% top players in the league and the average NHL has been bridged over time and now even role players in the NHL have a very good all around skill set compared to average players in the past in the NHL.

We have to remember that when Orr played the NHL went from 6 to 12 teams when he was 19 then to 14 when he was 22, then to 16 when he was 24 and this all helped him create seperation from his peers.

There is no doubt that he was the best player in his generation and would have been a dominant player if the NHL had remained a 6 team league but if it had remained a 6 team league his scoring accomplishments no doubt would have been tempered somewhat, how much would it have affected him we will never know for sure.

 

[Czech Your Math]

Couple of points here 05/06 was the 1st year after the lockout Cheechoo was the one season wonder with his leading the NHL in golas and yes Jagr had a great season at age 33-34 but why would he have not?

His "decline" actually occurred the following season down to 96 points as the new game with it's speed and other changes was making it more hard for the superstars to stand out as much as past superstars.

One thing that seems to be forgotten by some (not trying to single you out, because there have been similar statements recently) is that Jagr's decline in '06-07 was primarily the result of having his shoulder reconstructed after the previous season. Probably the next biggest factor would be the decreases in power plays and overall scoring in the league. There may have been some adjustment by the league and Jagr/Straka/Nylander were each a year older, but those weren't the main causes.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I think the biggest reason that guys like Crosby and AO can't separate themselves points wise like other guys in the past is that the overall game is much better today than the past and the gap between the 10% top players in the league and the average NHL has been bridged over time and now even role players in the NHL have a very good all around skill set compared to average players in the past in the NHL.

This is the part that I am skeptical about.

I fully agree that players are in better physical condition and better coached than ever before. I don't agree that it means that special players can't separate themselves from the pack. I mean.. that is the definition of special in the first place.

I am not talking about having a 70 point gap between the Art Ross winner and #2 like in Gretzky's day.. but you'd think they could do 20-30 points consistently.

That is the reason I bring up a past his prime Jagr having had a bigger season post lockout than either of Crosby or Ovechkin.

Heck even look at the 37 year old Mario Lemieux scoring at a 111 point rate in 2002-2003 before the lockout.

If these guys on the last legs of their NHL careers can score at a rate equivalent to Crosby/Ovechkin/Sedin etc... it just boggles my mind that people are still clinging to the "whole league got better argument" regarding Crosby and Ovechkin being unable to dominate. They are great players. Particularly Crosby's all around play and Ovechkin's goal scoring passion.. but..

What year was it that the league suddenly got so much better? 2007-2008?

I'd feel pretty safe betting that a hypothetical 24 year old Mario Lemieux or Wayne Gretzky in todays game, benefiting from the same training and coaching, would be capable of 140-150 pts.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Comparables

This is the part that I am skeptical about.

I fully agree that players are in better physical condition and better coached than ever before. I don't agree that it means that special players can't separate themselves from the pack. I mean.. that is the definition of special in the first place.

I am not talking about having a 70 point gap between the Art Ross winner and #2 like in Gretzky's day.. but you'd think they could do 20-30 points consistently.

That is the reason I bring up a past his prime Jagr having had a bigger season post lockout than either of Crosby or Ovechkin.

Heck even look at the 37 year old Mario Lemieux scoring at a 111 point rate in 2002-2003 before the lockout.

If these guys on the last legs of their NHL careers can score at a rate equivalent to Crosby/Ovechkin/Sedin etc... it just boggles my mind that people are still clinging to the "whole league got better argument" regarding Crosby and Ovechkin being unable to dominate. They are great players. Particularly Crosby's all around play and Ovechkin's goal scoring passion.. but..

What year was it that the league suddenly got so much better? 2007-2008?

I'd feel pretty safe betting that a hypothetical 24 year old Mario Lemieux or Wayne Gretzky in todays game, benefiting from the same training and coaching, would be capable of 140-150 pts.

Maybe we'll have to agree to disagree.

Fail to see the rationale comparing a mature, experienced NHL player to an 18-19 year old who has not matured physically and who has not acquired the game knowledge of a veteran.

Looking at 19 year olds in the NHL as off Feb 1,:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

Gretzky and Crosby are fairly close, without adjustments, simple raw totals, while the rest illustrate growth potential.

Players are better coached today. Defensive play most definitely. Offensive play - definitely not. The reverse was true 30 years ago and beyond.Most obvious example would be the 3rd-4th lines today. Very few teams have players on such lines that are any kind of threat to score - Philly has three fairly balanced lines but the other teams are trying to get 60 minutes of offense from 40 minutes of offensive talent and that rarely works.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Looking at 19 year olds in the NHL as off Feb 1,:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

Gretzky and Crosby are fairly close, without adjustments, simple raw totals, while the rest illustrate growth potential.

.

This shows that Gretzky and Crosby were, in fact, close at the age of 19 (Crosby's Hart year). What Gretzky did at 20 and 21 blows Crosby away.