Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[Video Nasty]

Once again. One million people play hockey and those players are the ones who has rich enough parents to support their kids doing so which narrow down the talent pool more than it already has. 260 million people play soccer, in a sport everyone has acesss too which makes the talent pool even more competitive among those hundreds of millions.

This makes it hundreds of times harder to become the goat in football than in ice hockey by sheer numbers. And then we don't take into consideration that hockey is only for those who can afford it. Perhaps there are better player than Gretzky who didn't have the means enough to play. Everyone can play football which remotes that doubt.

It baffles to me that some of you think they are even comparable to any degree. It's like I walked into a forum among the community of the wrong turn movie, if anybody has seen it, not a good one btw.

Realize this sport of hockey is like badminton in the eyes of the rest of the world or female volleyball.

Sure I love it but it is what it is.

As someone who doesn’t follow football/soccer, this rings true as a spot on analysis.

I also enjoyed the surprising Wrong Turn reference.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I don't know that he has separated himself from the likes of Ronaldo and Pele in the way that Gretzky or Bradman did from the rest of the pack to say this.

Messi vs Cristiano Ronaldo was never a debate to anyone who actually watched the games, it was more media hype than anything just because of the teams they played for. They went head to head in la liga for 9 years in their prime on the 2 best teams in the world and Messi scored more goals, had way more assists, won more ballon d'ors, more European golden boots, set the la liga and European league season goal record of 50, set the European season record of 73 goals in all club competitions (Ronaldo's best was 61), set the record for most goals+assists in a club season with 102 (Ronaldo's best was 82), set the calendar year record of 91 goals (Ronaldo's best was 69), etc, etc. Messi took hundreds of less shots but still scored more goals, has a better career GPG, more assists, way better APG, more trophies, more individual awards. The only thing Ronaldo has is higher career totals (because he's older) and more instagram followers. This isn't even getting into international where Ronaldo has never been close to the best player in a euro and has choked in 5 world cups (0 goals in the knockout rounds while doing nothing else on the pitch) while Messi has copa America golden ball, top scorer, most assists, 2 world cup golden balls, 1 silver boot, a winners medal and runner up medal. No debate.

 

[wetcoast]

I don't know that he has separated himself from the likes of Ronaldo and Pele in the way that Gretzky or Bradman did from the rest of the pack to say this.

I don't know the answer to this and I doubt very few people have enough knowledge historically about all of the sports to even make a good guess to the OP's question.

I mean I don't follow soccer really all that close but Messi has always played on excellent teams right?

Didn't vote but I expect Gretzky to be leading the poll.

 

[Canovin]

Gretzky also won a gold medal

It's much easier for Canada to win Olympic gold than Argentina winning a World cup

 

[amnesiac]

Messi vs Cristiano Ronaldo was never a debate. They went head to head in la liga for 9 years in their prime on the 2 best teams in the world and Messi scored more goals, had way more assists, won more ballon d'ors, more European golden boots, set the la liga and European league season goal record of 50, set the European season record of 73 goals in all club competitions (Ronaldo's best was 61), set the record for most goals+assists in a club season with 102 (Ronaldo's best was 82), set the calendar year record of 91 goals (Ronaldo's best was 69), etc, etc. Messi took hundreds of less shots but still scored more goals, has a better career GPG, more assists, way better APG, more trophies, more individual awards. The only thing Ronaldo has is higher career totals (because he's older) and more instagram followers. This isn't even getting into international where Ronaldo has never been close to the best player in a euro and has choked in 5 world cups (0 goals in the knockout rounds while doing nothing else on the pitch) while Messi has copa America golden ball, top scorer, most assists, 2 world cup golden balls, 1 silver boot, a winners medal and runner up medal. No debate.

its been a debate for well over a decade now. After Portugal won the Euro, Ronaldo was (said to be) the GOAT. Even just 2 years ago, many had Ronaldo as the goat.

Nows Messi's (team) won, suddenly hes the GOAT, especially after Ronaldo's down year.

Lets revisit this in 5-10 years when the dust settles.

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

its been a debate for a decade now. After Portugal won the Euro, Ronaldo was (said to be) the GOAT. Even just 2 years ago, many had Ronaldo as the goat.

Nows Messi's won, suddenly hes the GOAT.

Portugal won the Euro with Ronaldo sitting on the bench in the final. Whoever proclaimed him as the GOAT because of that obviously knows nothing about football.

Messi isn't the GOAT because he won the world cup. It's because he has the most ballon d'ors, most European golden boots, most goals in a league season, most goals in a club season, most goals in a calendar year, only player to win 2 world cup golden balls, only player to have 100 goals+assists in a season, etc.

 

[tfwnogf]

Gretzky is still the GOAT, other sports are not as good as hockey. Certainly not divegrass lmao

 

[Lord Flashheart]

He is absolutely is. The argument over Jordan and Gretzky is a pretty easy one. Two great athletes but they do play very niche sports. Their competitive field is infinitely smaller. I think a lot of people in NA don't realize how competitive the sport is around the rest of the world, and to be ahead of the field in the manner that Messi has been, is a greater accomplishment.

Basketball is not a "very niche sport", and has, compared to ice hockey, orders of magnitude more players (pro and amateur) world wide.

 

[amnesiac]

Portugal won the Euro with Ronaldo sitting on the bench in the final. Whoever proclaimed him as the GOAT because of that obviously knows nothing about football.

Messi isn't the GOAT because he won the world cup. It's because he has the most ballon d'ors, most European golden boots, most goals in a league season, most goals in a club season, most goals in a calendar year, only player to win 2 world cup golden balls, only player to have 100 goals+assists in a season, etc.

fair enough, Im just saying it is a debate, and may always will be. Again, you have to wait for careers to be over, in my opinion. Too much recency bias to talk about it now.

 

[Korpse]

Basketball is not a "very niche sport", and has, compared to ice hockey, orders of magnitude more players (pro and amateur) world wide.

A sport that greatly favors a physical stature that a small percentages of humans reach is in fact a very niche sport.

 

[AD1066]

Messi vs Cristiano Ronaldo was never a debate to anyone who actually watched the games, it was more media hype than anything just because of the teams they played for. They went head to head in la liga for 9 years in their prime on the 2 best teams in the world and Messi scored more goals, had way more assists, won more ballon d'ors, more European golden boots, set the la liga and European league season goal record of 50, set the European season record of 73 goals in all club competitions (Ronaldo's best was 61), set the record for most goals+assists in a club season with 102 (Ronaldo's best was 82), set the calendar year record of 91 goals (Ronaldo's best was 69), etc, etc. Messi took hundreds of less shots but still scored more goals, has a better career GPG, more assists, way better APG, more trophies, more individual awards. The only thing Ronaldo has is higher career totals (because he's older) and more instagram followers. This isn't even getting into international where Ronaldo has never been close to the best player in a euro and has choked in 5 world cups (0 goals in the knockout rounds while doing nothing else on the pitch) while Messi has copa America golden ball, top scorer, most assists, 2 world cup golden balls, 1 silver boot, a winners medal and runner up medal. No debate.

This article is 8 years old but I think illustrates what a rare talent Messi is.

Lionel Messi Is Impossible

In their Group F World Cup match late last month, Argentina and Iran were still deadlocked after 90 minutes. With the game in stoppage time and the score tied a…

fivethirtyeight.com

 

[Elvis P]

No, athletes in different sports can't be compared to each other.

 

[Satoru Gojo]

Brady

 

[tarheelhockey]

No, Messi benefitted a lot from amazing Barcelona teams to get all the goals he scored as well as UEFA basically gifting Barca numerous games in the champions league.

And the refs helped greatly with Argentina this year. I would rate Tom Brady and Gretzky over Messi any day of the week.

Arguing that he played on stacked teams and got a bunch of help from the refs is not a good way to lead-in to ranking Brady over him.

 

[BigTruzz]

I know this is a hockey board and I love hockey as much as anyone, but it's a mickey mouse sport compared to Football. Everyone in the world knows who Messi is. There's only one other athlete who MAYBE has a claim, and that's Usian Bolt.

 

[Cloned]

McDavid getting into soccer at an early age and becoming a soccer player would be the greatest sporting player to ever exist

 

[norrisnick]

Arguing that he played on stacked teams and got a bunch of help from the refs is not a good way to lead-in to ranking Brady over him.

Or Gretzky.

And it might seem like a bombshell to some, but it's really really hard to cement yourself as an all-time great if you aren't on a good team. Losing doesn't lend itself to making a mark in history. And not all sports can be carried by an individual.

 

[Foppberg]

Yes.

 

[Stickpucker]

No, the guy didn't even win a golden boot at the wc and there are plenty of players with more international goals.

 

[Nicko999]

If you want to talk about dominance, it's Rafael Nadal on clay (best of 5 sets).

137-3.

From 2003-present, only 2 people have beaten him on clay in a best of 5 match. Robin Soderling and Novak Djokovic (twice). His 2 losses against Djokovic, he was injured missing the rest of the season afterwards.

Considering a best of 5 match on clay might be the most demanding thing physically in all of sports, and he's still winning 36 is completely nuts.

It's him.

 

[um]

(im not including women)

Jordan.... I mean, he wouldve had 8 championships AND 8 MVPs in 8 years. Lets not kid ourselves
Gretzky.... his records speak for themselves
Brady..... I believe QB to be the toughest position in all sport. He was the best, no question.
Messi/Ronaldo.... I think its still a debate, people were saying Ronaldo was the GOAT just 2 years ago. Mbappe will pass both barring injury, though
Ruth.... Best hitter ever, maybe the hardest "thing" to do in sports, and pitched quite well too
Woods/Nicklaus.... take your pick. They both dominated a sport where you face hundreds.
Djokovic.... say what you want about the guy, hes the greatest ever, and isnt close to being done.
Richie McCaw..... dont know enough about the sport, but if youre said to be the GOAT off rugby, then youre one HELL of an athlete.

What are you talking about with Jordan? Did you mean the years he played baseball?

 

[AvroArrow]

He has won literally every trophy possible, I can see why the argument is being made

 

[norrisnick]

If you want to talk about dominance, it's Rafael Nadal on clay (best of 5 sets).

137-3.

From 2003-present, only 2 people have beaten him on clay in a best of 5 match. Robin Soderling and Novak Djokovic (twice). His 2 losses against Djokovic, he was injured missing the rest of the season afterwards.

Considering a best of 5 match on clay might be the most demanding thing physically in all of sports, and he's still winning 36 is completely nuts.

It's him.

You just out-niched hockey with clay court 5 set matches. Congrats.

 

[Lord Flashheart]

A sport that greatly favors a physical stature that a small percentages of humans reach is in fact a very niche sport.

Basketball around the world is slightly different than NBA. There have been plenty of highly succesfull players even in the NBA who have been slightly above average in so called physical stature. Similar line can be said about football (soccer) actually, it greatly favours smaller players.

There is huge amount of basketball players around the world, thus is can't be considered niche. There are certain set of physical attributes that give you an advantage to play basketball, then there's certain set of physical attributes that give you an advantage at playing football, etc.

When it comes to players of mentioned calibre certain things have to fall in place to reach these heights (physical attributes that are conducive to the played sport, genetic lottery, and hard work), and size of the pool isn't as big of a deciding factor (I'm talking specifically about these types of players).

 

[um]

If you want to talk about dominance, it's Rafael Nadal on clay (best of 5 sets).

137-3.

From 2003-present, only 2 people have beaten him on clay in a best of 5 match. Robin Soderling and Novak Djokovic (twice). His 2 losses against Djokovic, he was injured missing the rest of the season afterwards.

Considering a best of 5 match on clay might be the most demanding thing physically in all of sports, and he's still winning 36 is completely nuts.

It's him.

It seems weird to single out clay.

Don't think any other "GOAT" has such requirements.