Hart Trophy: Who has better claim?

[Freudian]

So if we look at the combined results between the nhl.com and hockey news polls , first place votes are as follows:

Mackinnon - 36
Kucherov - 20
Matthews - 5
Panarin -1

Pretty small sample size , and this might not look anything like the actual voters ' choices, but I think it's enough to conclude that mackinnon is the favorite right now

MacKinnon will win and a few posters here will wonder why the voters didn't care for points against top ten teams in games played Tuesdays and Thursdays or the number of minutes they played on the powerpoint during the season. The voters never cared for those things and never will. It's just fans desperately trawling for arguments.

 

[Tofveve]

I say Kucherov but the OP should probably mention Mackinnon's 51 goals to be fair.

 

[Tofveve]

I honestly don't see this as super close anymore. Throughout most of the year it was quite close but it's like the last few yards of a race, I mean Kuch brought it home.

Actually hearing Canadian sports media right now is annoying whether radio or TV. It honestly should be Kucherov's and it's not that close at the end (100 assists, 6 pts ahead of Mack, record assists for winger by 13 pts, gap between his totals and 2nd on team etc). Kuch should get the Lindsay too.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Nate hitting a nice round 140 likely sealed the hart for him. It will be close but I expect Nate wins

 

[Tofveve]

The MVP debate is a wrap.

That is one heckuva stat.

 

[Wester]

 

[Tofveve]

This reminds me of the good old mma GOAT conversations . . .

 

[Outl4w]

Five Players in nhl history have records 100 assist in a season.
Gretzky,Lemieux, Kucherov, McDavid, Orr
Three players have scored 40 plus goals in a season and have 100 assist.
Gretzky,Lemieux, Kucherov.
Two wingers in NHL history have have scored 87 assist or more in a season.
Jagr and Kucherov
Kucherov put himself in a category with Gretzky when he lead the playoffs in points back to back years and when he scored back to back 30 point playoff runs.
Kucherov literally has puthimself in categories with four of the top 10 players of all time for hockey.

Top scoring winger Kucherov 144 points 81 games player 1.78ppg
second scoring winger Panarin 120 points 82 games player 1.46ppg
24 point gap between the closest player at their positions
Top scoring Center
Mackinnon 140 points 82 games player 1.71ppg
second scoring center 132 Points 76 games player 1.74ppg
8 Point gap between the closest player at their positions

Scoring games on their own team
Mack140 points to Rantanten104 points
36 point gap
Kucherov 144 points to Point 90 points
54 point game

Total offensive percentage for their team
Kucherov- 144points/290 goals=49.4% of his teams total offense
Mackinnon- 140points/304 goals=46.0%

Points (excluding empty nets) against the Top 10 teams in the NHL:
MacKinnon: 26pts in 22 GP (1.18 P/GP)
McDavid: 27pts in 20 GP (1.35 P/GP)
Kucherov: 50pts in 26 GP (1.92 P/GP)

Goals
Kucherov- 44 goals, 14.4% shooting percentage
Top goal scoring winger Hyman 54 goals 10 behind leader from winger position

Mackinnon- 51 goals, 12.6% shooting percentage
Mackinnon didn't lead the league in goals and was 18 goals behind the goal scoring leader and the leading goal scoring center.
HE wasn't the best goal scorer, dishman, or points getter. He led the nhl in no major scoring categories.
Seems Kucherov is closer to the best goal scoring winger than MacKinnon is to the best goal scoring center.

Kucherov literally dominated the nhl from a position that is harder to dominate the nhl from.
Kucherov put himself with historical and hall of famer categories three different times in one season.
Mackinnon has more goals, better defense on a better defensive team, and plays center.
Lightning let up 291 goals this year total. Defense is a mess and goaltending was awful until march.
Colorado let up 254 goals.
Mackinnon didn't dominate or win any categories. He is just really good but not the best at anything.
If Kucherov was a canadian they would be running his season and telling nhl fans how great he was this season 24/7. Instead they are hyping up Mackinnon who had a great season, but didn't put himself into any categories with the four of the greatest hockey players of all time with Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, and Orr.
How can one claim that a player that put himself into a group with the greatest players to play hockey ever in one season be less dominate or less important to his team then a player that can't get into a category with the greatest players of all time or even lead in any major categories of his playing career?

 

[flying squirrel]

I honestly don't see this as super close anymore. Throughout most of the year it was quite close but it's like the last few yards of a race, I mean Kuch brought it home.

Actually hearing Canadian sports media right now is annoying whether radio or TV. It honestly should be Kucherov's and it's not that close at the end (100 assists, 6 pts ahead of Mack, record assists for winger by 13 pts, gap between his totals and 2nd on team etc). Kuch should get the Lindsay too.

Agree with much of what's said above.

Just would best for anyone pulling for Kucherov, or thinking he can win to come to terms with: Kucherov is not getting MVP this year. Myself, have come to terms with Lightning organization getting over-looked yearly, no matter what's achieved, when it comes to individual NHL awards. When humans vote instead of merits deciding what/who wins, one ends with Lightning human-award-potluck results. This won't be last time humans use.... "The Who" instead of.... "The What" when judging.

Can anyone give us all good reasoning to why a NHL team, that achieved below, has only 3 voted-in individual awards?

• Team that achieved 6 ECF"s, 4 SCF's, and won 2 "Cups over 8 years time.
• Won only 1 Vezina and 1 Norris
• And on top of those 2 awards during that awesome 8 year run. That 1 Hart won 2019 by Kuch was taken by force pretty much: he won scoring race with 128 points & helped Lightning break total wins record that stood for 30+ yrs.
• Lightning players not only preformed in playoffs for 8 yrs, they had good enough regular seasons to boot during stretch. When many were asked.... "What player would you take at their positions 1st?" Those answers would involved Lightning players a bunch, especially when to came to Vasy & Hedman. Shoot, NHL players themselves would pick them in these polls.
• This took place year after year, and cause >>> effect is real folks. That #1 BS statement wasn't born for thin-air. It was legit push-back from years of lack of respect. Any bear has a right to poke/bite back after so many poked that bear for years. Especially when those pokes are towards other bears in that bears cave.
• Kucherov took his FU "Cup" money, and took up for teammates lack of respect year after year, when he had microphone.
• How has Jon Cooper not won Jack Adams yet? This might be one of biggest snubs during Lightning's awesome 8 year run. Even this year, Cooper's work after quickened flat-cup roster exodus, Vasy injury (Not good until 2/3 into yr), major injuries to team, use of Kucherov up/down line-up to generate needed points, etc. should have Cooper in this conversation, but crickets on that front.

Like mentioned, one shouldn't hold breath waiting for Lightning players/coaches to win voted accolades for achievements. Plus, just love excuse that Kucherov isn't likeable or this and that with his personality, and this is why he shouldn't or will win MVP. How's that translate over with players like Hedman, Vasy, and Cooper's never winning Jack Adams? Guess those 3 should've acted better at all-star competitions, or been even nicer than they are during those 8 years...

So keep them coming for reasons to why Kucherov shouldn't win MVP. But, this won't take away from Kucherov's season being better statically, Kuch being more important to his team, or his season being more historic than anyone else's. Only McDavid has this kind of historical claim with his 100 assist year also, but Kucherov was more MVPish between those two superstars though. Maybe Jon Cooper has some Russian on his family tree somewhere, and that's kept the Jack Adams from his reach, that might explain things.... Now it's time to turn my attention to best playoffs in sports, NHL playoffs!!!! Woo hooo

Many players had special seasons, but one had an historical one
Most know this to be true but.....

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Agree with much of what's said above.

Just would best for anyone pulling for Kucherov, or thinking he can win to come to terms with: Kucherov is not getting MVP this year. Myself, have come to terms with Lightning organization getting over-looked yearly, no matter what's achieved, when it comes to individual NHL awards. When humans vote instead of merits deciding what/who wins, one ends with Lightning human-award-potluck results. This won't be last time humans use.... "The Who" instead of.... "The What" when judging.

Can anyone give us all good reasoning to why a NHL team, that achieved below, has only 3 voted-in individual awards?

• Team that achieved 6 ECF"s, 4 SCF's, and won 2 "Cups over 8 years time.
• Won only 1 Vezina and 1 Norris
• And on top of those 2 awards during that awesome 8 year run. That 1 Hart won 2019 by Kuch was taken by force pretty much: he won scoring race with 128 points & helped Lightning break total wins record that stood for 30+ yrs.
• Lightning players not only preformed in playoffs for 8 yrs, they had good enough regular seasons to boot during stretch. When many were asked.... "What player would you take at their positions 1st?" Those answers would involved Lightning players a bunch, especially when to came to Vasy & Hedman. Shoot, NHL players themselves would pick them in these polls.
• This took place year after year, and cause >>> effect is real folks. That #1 BS statement wasn't born for thin-air. It was legit push-back from years of lack of respect. Any bear has a right to poke/bite back after so many poked that bear for years. Especially when those pokes are towards other bears in that bears cave.
• Kucherov took his FU "Cup" money, and took up for teammates lack of respect year after year, when he had microphone.
• How has Jon Cooper not won Jack Adams yet? This might be one of biggest snubs during Lightning's awesome 8 year run. Even this year, Cooper's work after quickened flat-cup roster exodus, Vasy injury (Not good until 2/3 into yr), major injuries to team, use of Kucherov up/down line-up to generate needed points, etc. should have Cooper in this conversation, but crickets on that front.

Like mentioned, one shouldn't hold breath waiting for Lightning players/coaches to win voted accolades for achievements. Plus, just love excuse that Kucherov isn't likeable or this and that with his personality, and this is why he shouldn't or will win MVP. How's that translate over with players like Hedman, Vasy, and Cooper's never winning Jack Adams? Guess those 3 should've acted better at all-star competitions, or been even nicer than they are during those 8 years...

So keep them coming for reasons to why Kucherov shouldn't win MVP. But, this won't take away from Kucherov's season being better statically, Kuch being more important to his team, or his season being more historic than anyone else's. Only McDavid has this kind of historical claim with his 100 assist year also, but Kucherov was more MVPish between those two superstars though. Maybe Jon Cooper has some Russian on his family tree somewhere, and that's kept the Jack Adams from his reach, that might explain things.... Now it's time to turn my attention to best playoffs in sports, NHL playoffs!!!! Woo hooo

Many players had special seasons, but one had an historical one
Most know this to be true but.....

everyone recognizes Kucherov's historic season.

It doesn't mean he the the MVP, maybe he will be. But there is a very strong case for MacKinnon.

Personally, I take MacKinnon by the slimest of margins for the hart. Seems like a lot of writers agree with me, many people don't. That's OK, lots of people will disagree with the results whenever its a close race. Its the complete disregard of MacKinnon's valid case that baffles me. Kuch fans have to be the most insecure I have ever seen. Let them believe its rigged, it'll help them sleep if he doesn't indeed win.

 

[Outl4w]

everyone recognizes Kucherov's historic season.

It doesn't mean he the the MVP, maybe he will be. But there is a very strong case for MacKinnon.

Personally, I take MacKinnon by the slimest of margins for the hart. Seems like a lot of writers agree with me, many people don't. That's OK, lots of people will disagree with the results whenever its a close race. Its the complete disregard of MacKinnon's valid case that baffles me. Kuch fans have to be the most insecure I have ever seen. Let them believe its rigged, it'll help them sleep if he doesn't indeed win.

Mackinnon isn't even the best or most dominate center in the nhl. How does anyone award him the hart trophy? Mackinnon didn't lead the league in anything this year.
McDavid scores more ppg and point totals during their career overlap.
Matthew scores more goals.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Mackinnon isn't even the best or most dominate center in the nhl. How does anyone award him the hart trophy? Mackinnon didn't lead the league in anything this year.
McDavid scores more ppg and point totals during their career overlap.
Matthew scores more goals.

you just repeat the same things over and over, everything anyone has to say about MacKinnon's case has been laid out in front of you but you don't care about anything except the art ross or points per game, so nothing I can say will swing you at all ,

There have been Hart trophy winners that did not lead the league in goals, points, or ppg multiple times in the past - but I am certain you would call those all the result of bias or bad voting so there's no point. If you don't understand how a guy with 4 fewer points than the Art ross winner who also has 7 more goals than the AR winner and better defensive stats is a strong candidate, you can choose to believe whatever you want.

Its not just like 1 or 2 people picking MacKinnon either, its a lot of people, a lot of pretty smart hockey people too. All biased though, I am sure.

 

[flying squirrel]

Five Players in nhl history have records 100 assist in a season.
Gretzky,Lemieux, Kucherov, McDavid, Orr
Three players have scored 40 plus goals in a season and have 100 assist.
Gretzky,Lemieux, Kucherov.
Two wingers in NHL history have have scored 87 assist or more in a season.
Jagr and Kucherov
Kucherov put himself in a category with Gretzky when he lead the playoffs in points back to back years and when he scored back to back 30 point playoff runs.
Kucherov literally has puthimself in categories with four of the top 10 players of all time for hockey.

Top scoring winger Kucherov 144 points 81 games player 1.78ppg
second scoring winger Panarin 120 points 82 games player 1.46ppg
24 point gap between the closest player at their positions
Top scoring Center
Mackinnon 140 points 82 games player 1.71ppg
second scoring center 132 Points 76 games player 1.74ppg
8 Point gap between the closest player at their positions

Scoring games on their own team
Mack140 points to Rantanten104 points
36 point gap
Kucherov 144 points to Point 90 points
54 point game

Total offensive percentage for their team
Kucherov- 144points/290 goals=49.4% of his teams total offense
Mackinnon- 140points/304 goals=46.0%

Points (excluding empty nets) against the Top 10 teams in the NHL:
MacKinnon: 26pts in 22 GP (1.18 P/GP)
McDavid: 27pts in 20 GP (1.35 P/GP)
Kucherov: 50pts in 26 GP (1.92 P/GP)

Goals
Kucherov- 44 goals, 14.4% shooting percentage
Mackinnon- 51 goals, 12.6% shooting percentage


Kucherov literally dominated the nhl from a position that is harder to dominate the nhl from.
Kucherov put himself with historical and hall of famer categories three different times in one season.
Mackinnon has more goals, better defense on a better defensive team, and plays center.
Lightning let up 291 goals this year total. Defense is a mess and goaltending was awful until march.
Colorado let up 254 goals.
If Kucherov was a canadian they would be running his season and telling nhl fans how great he was this season 24/7. Instead they are hyping up Mackinnon who had a great season, but didn't put himself into any categories with the four of the greatest hockey players of all time with Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, and Orr.

This deserves reply and post spells it out doesn't it? Historic, Kucherov was.

We all have to read "Real World" room with this unfortunately. "He's Russian" actually mean something more than just.... "Kucherov is Russian". Sports is powerful and can influences society 10-fold: Humans figured this out long ago, and ESPN/NHL/Media are not going to better odds of Russian becoming an idol or influence youth. Wouldn't be first time power/money put fingers-on-scales to push or suppress cultural fads, or other possible influences in society.

 

[Kshahdoo]

Five Players in nhl history have records 100 assist in a season.
Gretzky,Lemieux, Kucherov, McDavid, Orr
Three players have scored 40 plus goals in a season and have 100 assist.
Gretzky,Lemieux, Kucherov.
Two wingers in NHL history have have scored 87 assist or more in a season.
Jagr and Kucherov
Kucherov put himself in a category with Gretzky when he lead the playoffs in points back to back years and when he scored back to back 30 point playoff runs.
Kucherov literally has puthimself in categories with four of the top 10 players of all time for hockey.

Top scoring winger Kucherov 144 points 81 games player 1.78ppg
second scoring winger Panarin 120 points 82 games player 1.46ppg
24 point gap between the closest player at their positions
Top scoring Center
Mackinnon 140 points 82 games player 1.71ppg
second scoring center 132 Points 76 games player 1.74ppg
8 Point gap between the closest player at their positions

Scoring games on their own team
Mack140 points to Rantanten104 points
36 point gap
Kucherov 144 points to Point 90 points
54 point game

Total offensive percentage for their team
Kucherov- 144points/290 goals=49.4% of his teams total offense
Mackinnon- 140points/304 goals=46.0%

Points (excluding empty nets) against the Top 10 teams in the NHL:
MacKinnon: 26pts in 22 GP (1.18 P/GP)
McDavid: 27pts in 20 GP (1.35 P/GP)
Kucherov: 50pts in 26 GP (1.92 P/GP)

Goals
Kucherov- 44 goals, 14.4% shooting percentage
Top goal scoring winger Hyman 54 goals 10 behind leader from winger position

Mackinnon- 51 goals, 12.6% shooting percentage
Mackinnon didn't lead the league in goals and was 18 goals behind the goal scoring leader and the leading goal scoring center.
HE wasn't the best goal scorer, dishman, or points getter. He led the nhl in no major scoring categories.
Seems Kucherov is closer to the best goal scoring winger than MacKinnon is to the best goal scoring center.

Kucherov literally dominated the nhl from a position that is harder to dominate the nhl from.
Kucherov put himself with historical and hall of famer categories three different times in one season.
Mackinnon has more goals, better defense on a better defensive team, and plays center.
Lightning let up 291 goals this year total. Defense is a mess and goaltending was awful until march.
Colorado let up 254 goals.
Mackinnon didn't dominate or win any categories. He is just really good but not the best at anything.
If Kucherov was a canadian they would be running his season and telling nhl fans how great he was this season 24/7. Instead they are hyping up Mackinnon who had a great season, but didn't put himself into any categories with the four of the greatest hockey players of all time with Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, and Orr.
How can one claim that a player that put himself into a group with the greatest players to play hockey ever in one season be less dominate or less important to his team then a player that can't get into a category with the greatest players of all time or even lead in any major categories of his playing career?

You forget the last paragraph:

MacKinnon - Canadian
Kucherov - Russian.

 

[Golden_Jet]

everyone recognizes Kucherov's historic season.

It doesn't mean he the the MVP, maybe he will be. But there is a very strong case for MacKinnon.

Personally, I take MacKinnon by the slimest of margins for the hart. Seems like a lot of writers agree with me, many people don't. That's OK, lots of people will disagree with the results whenever it’s a close race. It’s the complete disregard of MacKinnon's valid case that baffles me. Kuch fans have to be the most insecure I have ever seen. Let them believe it’s rigged, it'll help them sleep if he doesn't indeed win.

Kuch should be the MVP, when was the last time a player finished with 54 points ahead of his closest teammate.
Only 3 players in history have broken a 40 goal season and 100 assists.
Gretzky, Lemieux and Kucherov.
Definitely sounds like most valuable to his team.

 

[Golden_Jet]

You forget the last paragraph:

MacKinnon - Canadian
Kucherov - Russian.

You forgot Kuch won the trophy over Crosby and McDavid in 18/19.
But for some reason you keep pushing this false narrative.

 

[Kshahdoo]

You forgot Kuch won the trophy over Crosby and McDavid in 18/19.
But for some reason you keep pushing this false narrative.

It wasn't close enough back then.

 

[killa3312]

You forgot Kuch won the trophy over Crosby and McDavid in 18/19.
But for some reason you keep pushing this false narrative.

2018-19 was an easy call for Hart. Kucherov put up 128 points that at the time seemed outlandish and hadn’t been seen in 20 years. His team also had a historic regular season and was by far the best team in the league that year, postseason results aside. It would have been ludicrous if he hadn’t won. This is a totally different scenario.

 

[Golden_Jet]

2018-19 was an easy call for Hart. Kucherov put up 128 points that at the time seemed outlandish and hadn’t been seen in 20 years. His team also had a historic regular season and was by far the best team in the league that year, postseason results aside. It would have been ludicrous if he hadn’t won. This is a totally different scenario.

Not ludicrous he was 17th in even strength goals and second in even strength points.
I think Kuch should win again this year, the Canadian Russian thing is in kshado head.

 

[Soul Assumption]

Its not just like 1 or 2 people picking MacKinnon either, its a lot of people, a lot of pretty smart hockey people too.

It means nothing. "The Hockey news" think that MacKinnon is MVP. The same Hockey News claimed that Kucherov was the 22nd best player at the beginning of the season. These are your "smart hockey people"
If you swap the nationalities or if both were Canadians, there would not even be any discussion.
Or do you really think that the American media ESPN claims that Matthews is a top 1 player in the 2024 Stanley Cup playoffs because he is actually that good in the playoffs? Give me a break.

 

[Sinistril]

you just repeat the same things over and over, everything anyone has to say about MacKinnon's case has been laid out in front of you but you don't care about anything except the art ross or points per game, so nothing I can say will swing you at all ,

There have been Hart trophy winners that did not lead the league in goals, points, or ppg multiple times in the past - but I am certain you would call those all the result of bias or bad voting so there's no point. If you don't understand how a guy with 4 fewer points than the Art ross winner who also has 7 more goals than the AR winner and better defensive stats is a strong candidate, you can choose to believe whatever you want.

Its not just like 1 or 2 people picking MacKinnon either, its a lot of people, a lot of pretty smart hockey people too. All biased though, I am sure.

Those players who did not lead the league in anything usually did something special on their team, in their position, or in years where other players weren't particularly impressive. None of those apply here

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Those players who did not lead the league in anything usually did something special on their team, in their position, or in years where other players weren't particularly impressive. None of those apply here

I mean 144-140 is not a big gap at all.

This is very similar to Sakic over Jagr in 01 That was definitely bias though, like this one will be.

Just award whoever you think deserves it in your head and ignore the actual voting if you are going to dismiss its validity entirely

 

[flying squirrel]

everyone recognizes Kucherov's historic season.

It doesn't mean he the the MVP, maybe he will be. But there is a very strong case for MacKinnon.

Personally, I take MacKinnon by the slimest of margins for the hart. Seems like a lot of writers agree with me, many people don't. That's OK, lots of people will disagree with the results whenever its a close race. Its the complete disregard of MacKinnon's valid case that baffles me. Kuch fans have to be the most insecure I have ever seen. Let them believe its rigged, it'll help them sleep if he doesn't indeed win.

Have no doubt MacKinnon will wins MVP one year, he's to good not too. All these players have... "The goods" and we fans watched a star-studded show this year. But one player stood out a little more than rest of pack, his season was historic also. Sure you feel other way and that's OK... But if you see me on here speaking up for Kuch/Lightning, it's more of a problem towards system, or NHL/Media, than these other star players themselves. Myself, wouldn't think any less of fan either, that defends, or brings it while propping up their player/team. Concerning insecure thingy: Lightning players/coach have been overlooked when it comes to individual awards, when one considers their achievements. Those gripes have legit weight behind them, especially no Jack Adams for Jon Cooper.

Have mad respect for what NHLer's do, especially come playoff time, brutal miles. Time for playoffs and past time to put this MVP debate to bed until playoff are over......

Have a sweet time watching playoffs everyone!!!!!

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Have no doubt MacKinnon will wins MVP one year, he's to good not too. All these players have... "The goods" and we fans watched a star-studded show this year. But one player stood out a little more than rest of pack, his season was historic also. Sure you feel other way and that's OK... But if you see me on here speaking up for Kuch/Lightning, it's more of a problem towards system, or NHL/Media, than these other star players themselves. Myself, wouldn't think any less of fan either, that defends, or brings it while propping up their player/team. Concerning insecure thingy: Lightning players/coach have been overlooked when it comes to individual awards, when one considers their achievements. Those gripes have legit weight behind them, especially no Jack Adams for Jon Cooper.

Have mad respect for what NHLer's do, especially come playoff time, brutal miles. Time for playoffs and past time to put this MVP debate to bed until playoff are over......

Have a sweet time watching playoffs everyone!!!!!

MacKinnon is the big favorite to win it this year

 

[Crosby2010]

My guess is MacKinnon not winning one yet goes in his favour. And in reality, 144 points to 140, Point/Hedman/Stamkos vs. Makar/Rantanen when it comes to supporting cast. I mean, we are splitting hairs here. But the media loves MacKinnon and might not like Kucherov as much. I am not saying that is why he may not win it, but I think there is no doubt there are some writers who will think this way. I have to say though, the hot streak Kucherov went on at the end and the 100 assists, that just might push it over the top for him. That's unreal. He wasn't even close to getting 100 assists before the hot streak. You may have pinned him at 90 or so.

I do have to admit, I've always sort of liked Kucherov's Gronk-like demeanour. I can't dislike the guy, even if he was drunk at the All-Star game.