Hart Trophy: Who has better claim?

[DFC]

luckily the MVP is not synonymous with the rarest stat line

I dont think anyone is really claiming Kucherov deserves to be MVP because he hit 100 assists. The argument is based on how bad everyone else on TB was for 3/4 of the season.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

I dont think anyone is really claiming Kucherov deserves to be MVP because he hit 100 assists. The argument is based on how bad everyone else on TB was for 3/4 of the season.

and the avs were good?

Tampa has 5 guys with 75+ pts. Colorado has 3 players with more than 57. Neither one is running away with the "weaker support" narrative either. Its close

 

[TheStatican]

Its actually not more rare than 150 points. Roughly equal. You're proving my point.

Wait, I'm confused... so now something that is less rarer can actually be of equal value to something that is more more rarer? And yes 100 assists is more "rarer" than 150 points - The total number of players and times both milestones have been reached is not identical.

 

[Signupnow]

I think it will go to the one who has the most countrymen voting for who they like the most.

 

[DFC]

and the avs were good?

Tampa has 5 guys with 75+ pts. Colorado has 3 players with more than 57. Neither one is running away with the "weaker support" narrative either. Its close

Ok, now how many of those guys's total points was Kucherov involved on?

 

[DFC]

Wait, I'm confused... so now something that is less rarer can actually be of equal value to something that is more more rarer? And yes 100 assists is more "rarer" than 150 points - The total number of players and times both milestones have been reached is not identical.

I think you're confusing my argument with someone else's. You claimed the number was arbitrary. I'm arguing against that. It's an important number because so few players have done it -- literally the best players of all time + Kucherov.

I believe there are a lot of good arguments for MacKinnon to win the Hart. I just think there are more for Kucherov.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Ok, now how many of those guys's total points was Kucherov involved on?

A lot? Hence why Kucherov (like I've said many times) has a great case for the Hart.

MacKinnon also has a great case for the hart.

2 of the best seasons in recent memory coinciding - it will likely and should be a very close race. Whoever wins was well deserving.

I think you're confusing my argument with someone else's. You claimed the number was arbitrary. I'm arguing against that. It's an important number because so few players have done it -- literally the best players of all time + Kucherov.

I believe there are a lot of good arguments for MacKinnon to win the Hart. I just think there are more for Kucherov.

I question whether you understand what arbitrary means...

Nobody is saying 100 assists isn't amazing or isn't important or isn't rare. But it IS arbitrary regardless

 

[DFC]

A lot? Hence why Kucherov (like I've said many times) has a great case for the Hart.

MacKinnon also has a great case for the hart.

2 of the best seasons in recent memory coinciding - it will likely and should be a very close race. Whoever wins was well deserving.



I question whether you understand what arbitrary means...

Nobody is saying 100 assists isn't amazing or isn't important or isn't rare. But it IS arbitrary regardless

I dont think so. I mean, we can deconstruct any statistic until it becomes arbitrary. 100 assists is only arbitrary when comparing it to very similar achievements.

Players can be carried to great seasons by teammates. I think 100 assists is a big threshold and incredibly difficult to do, thus why so few players have done it.

 

[pld459666]

Hart Trophy: Who has better claim?


Nikita Kucherov:
- Art Ross Trophy
- 100 Assists. First ever winger to do it. Previous record was 87.
- 54 Points clear of closest teammate
- 1'st in PPG


Nathan Mackinnon:
- 2'd in Art Ross Trophy
- 3'd in PPG
- +34
- 35 Points more than the closest teammate


Connor McDavid:
- 100 Assists
- 3'd in Art Ross Trophy
- 2'd in PPG
- +35
- 26 Points more than the closest teammate

I know he's not gonna win it, but;

Artemi Panarin
- 4th in Art Ross
- more than a 1:00 less TOI than the top 5 scorers
- 43 Points more than closest teammate
- best player on the Presidents Trophy winning team.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

I dont think so. I mean, we can deconstruct any statistic until it becomes arbitrary. 100 assists is only arbitrary when comparing it to very similar achievements.

Players can be carried to great seasons by teammates. I think 100 assists is a big threshold and incredibly difficult to do, thus why so few players have done it.

You literally do not understand what the word arbitrary means...

No matter how impressive or rare something is, does not mean it isn't arbitrary. Nobody is saying it isn't an amazing accomplishment - but the difference between 100 and 99 is no different than the difference between 99 and 98, or 66 and 67, or any other difference of 1. The point is that perfect round multiples of 10 look nice but they are inherently no different than any number. (actually on a percentage basis the difference between 100 and 99 would be lower than the others)

100 assists is cool and is super rare, but it - like all cutoffs , IS arbitrary. The fact you keep coming back to try to explain why its so valuable is pointless because we all understand what an accomplishment it is, albeit still arbitrary and not the end all be all

 

[TheStatican]

I think you're confusing my argument with someone else's. You claimed the number was arbitrary. I'm arguing against that. It's an important number because so few players have done it -- literally the best players of all time + Kucherov.

It's a significant milestone no doubt, I'm not disputing that. I'm only pointing out that the rarity card is being overplayed. The number of 100 assist and 150 point players and seasons is close, but that doesn't change the fact that 100 assists has happened a little less often and yet we all understand that a 100 assist season is not better than a 150 point season(when the 100 assist player has less than 150 points and vice versa). This means there's other important factors to consider - primarily goal totals.

 

[Outl4w]

You literally do not understand what the word arbitrary means...

No matter how impressive or rare something is, does not mean it isn't arbitrary. Nobody is saying it isn't an amazing accomplishment - but the difference between 100 and 99 is no different than the difference between 99 and 98, or 66 and 67, or any other difference of 1. The point is that perfect round multiples of 10 look nice but they are inherently no different than any number. (actually on a percentage basis the difference between 100 and 99 would be lower than the others)

100 assists is cool and is super rare, but it - like all cutoffs , IS arbitrary. The fact you keep coming back to try to explain why its so valuable is pointless because we all understand what an accomplishment it is, albeit still arbitrary and not the end all be all

Five players in the nhl history have did it. Mackinnon isn't one of them. Mackinnon didn't break a record help by the best player at his position that stood for over 25 years. I am just saying Kucherov scored more points with less games played, he produced against top 10 talent better, he broke two historial records which put him in the HOF, had larger point gap to his closet team mate, plays in a better conference if you use average points that doesn't have all four of the absolute worst teams in the nhl, but he probably won't win because he is a russian .

 

[Vasilevskiy]

You just have washington and islanders in the playoffs lol.

Why cant kucherov get the lighting to be better than Nashville?

Look at our defense and goaltending this season. I'm sorry Kuch doesn't have Makar and Toews playing proper D in his team

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Five players in the nhl history have did it. Mackinnon isn't one of them. Mackinnon didn't break a record help by the best player at his position that stood for over 25 years. I am just saying Kucherov scored more points with less games played, he produced against top 10 talent better, he broke two historial records which put him in the HOF, had larger point gap to his closet team mate, plays in a better conference if you use average points that doesn't have all four of the absolute worst teams in the nhl, but he probably won't win because he is a russian .

he didn't actually break any records though. I've never once heard anyone call "most pts by a RD or LD, or left handed C , etc. Kuch is a forward, yes he is a winger but most assists by a winger is not a major NHL record I am sorry.

 

[killa3312]

Kucherov was hyper productive against the top tier teams in the league and played better the tougher the competition. His worst games actually came against many of the lower tier teams in the league. If anything, that should clinch the Hart for him right then and there. Someone posted the stats somewhere earlier in this thread but Kuch’s production was basically double what Mak’s was against the higher end competition.

 

[Vasilevskiy]

I think MacKinnon wins it and it's easy for any voter to come to that conclusion.

• 50+ goals
• +34 vs +8
• Didn't behave like a clown at the all star game
• Haven't won the Hart before, despite deserving it
• More likeable as a person

Those arguments sold me on MacK deserving the Hart. Close this thread already

 

[Outl4w]

I found this interesting. The avs definitely have Mackinnon and Rantanen on the powerplay trying to rack up PP points. Kuch is just more effective on the PP with 3 more goals than Mackinnon and 2 more points in one less game. Mackinnon played one more game and plays one more minute and two seconds more per game. Edmonton dressed a really bad lineup last night and made it easier for Mackinnon to catch Kucherov, but he didn't. Yes I know the real reason they didnt want to get any star forwards hurt. Kucherov actually is a better shooter this year and overall,but he prefers setting up people with his hockey iq to shooting. His shooting percentage is better which make him a more.effective goal scorer. There is no question he is the best playmaker in the league from the wing by far. Both are great players, but Kuch deserves this.
So I predict Art Ross/Hart or Lindsay for Kucherov
Hart or Lindsay for Mackinnon
So MAckinnon
Most PP TOI/game
Winner: Mikko Rantanen, Colorado, 4:35

I think MacKinnon wins it and it's easy for any voter to come to that conclusion.

• 50+ goals
• +34 vs +8
• Didn't behave like a clown at the all star game
• Haven't won the Hart before, despite deserving it
• More likeable as a person

The all star game is a clown event and should have zero impact on league MVP. If it does then why do we not renamed the Hart Trophy to the John Scott MVP trophy. The 3 on 3 draft selection is a complete farse and waste of a time especially when you combine it with fan votes.

 

[Leafsfanperson]

Just my musing on the trophy

Auston Matthews

Yes Guy: Highest goal total in the history of the Richard trophy, 50+ even strength goals, won the award by a mile, I'd be curious if this is the largest margin in the history of the award compared to the runner up (people smarter than me let me know, I'm sure it will only be pointed out if I'm wrong to suggest but ignore it if I'm right)

No Guy: Doesn't have the assists to inflate his point total points. Two other guys achieved milestones of 100 point seasons. Good things don't happen to Leaf fans.

Connor McDavid

Yes Guy: After a slow start lapped the field and was the first to a 100 assist season. Every one is picking him as the favorite to win the Hart next season because he is the face of the league and there is no contender. It'll be criminal if he doesn't get nominated like it was criminal to give Hall the Hart over him in the past.

-edit- Best primary point production is something I overlooked. IMO, it's between him and Auston is a just world

No Guy: Basically it's his award every year and his performance has to be out perform the narrative other players can create. Best player in the league to the point it's taken for granted.

Nikitai Kucherov

Yes Guy: Art Ross, lead players in points per game when facing top 10 in standing opponents, out performed his own teams by significant margin. 100+ assists speaks for itself

No Guy: 18 points on empty net, for all the talk of him 'being the most valuable player to his team' it's a bit rich when he gets to play with Point, Stamkos and Hedman, the narrative of him dragging a team into the playoff is suss.

Nate MacKinnon

Yes Guy: Best balanced production, unreal season, plays the visually impressive game, a beast on the puck

No Guy: In a season when other people hit milestones leaves a bit to be desired. The narrative of 'it's Nate's turn' works both for and against.

Sid Crosby

Yes Guy: Millennials like him a lot and apparently some people think that the Hart should go to their favorite player for not totally regressing at his age

No Guy: No one can sufficiently gas light his season with the Pens missing the playoffs.

 

[DFC]

Just my musing on the trophy

Auston Matthews

Yes Guy: Highest goal total in the history of the Richard trophy, 50+ even strength goals, won the award by a mile, I'd be curious if this is the largest margin in the history of the award compared to the runner up (people smarter than me let me know, I'm sure it will only be pointed out if I'm wrong to suggest but ignore it if I'm right)

No Guy: Doesn't have the assists to inflate his point total points. Two other guys achieved milestones of 100 point seasons. Good things don't happen to Leaf fans.

Connor McDavid

Yes Guy: After a slow start lapped the field and was the first to a 100 assist season. Every one is picking him as the favorite to win the Hart next season because he is the face of the league and there is no contender. It'll be criminal if he doesn't get nominated like it was criminal to give Hall the Hart over him in the past.

No Guy: Basically it's his award every year and his performance has to be out perform the narrative other players can create. Best player in the league to the point it's taken for granted.

Nikitai Kucherov

Yes Guy: Art Ross, lead players in points per game when facing top 10 in standing opponents, out performed his own teams by significant margin. 100+ assists speaks for itself

No Guy: 18 points on empty net, for all the talk of him 'being the most valuable player to his team' it's a bit rich when he gets to play with Point, Stamkos and Hedman, the narrative of him dragging a team into the playoff is suss.

Nate MacKinnon

Yes Guy: Best balanced production, unreal season, plays the visually impressive game, a beast on the puck

No Guy: In a season when other people hit milestones leaves a bit to be desired. The narrative of 'it's Nate's turn' works both for and against.

Sid Crosby

Yes Guy: Millennials like him a lot and apparently some people think that the Hart should go to their favorite player for not totally regressing at his age

No Guy: No one can sufficiently gas light his season with the Pens missing the playoffs.

I think the only guy on your list who put up real points without Kucherov's involvement was Hedman. Stamkos and Point certainly didnt this year. Stamkos was not good 5v5 when separated from Kucherov. Point was separated less often, and didn't do much either.

As good as those players are, they weren't hooking up to make plays with anyone but Kucherov. Other years, yes, but this year the whole team came back from summer vacation around March.

 

[Leafsfanperson]

I think the only guy on your list who put up real points without Kucherov's involvement was Hedman. Stamkos and Point certainly didnt this year. Stamkos was not good 5v5 when separated from Kucherov. Point was separated less often, and didn't do much either.

As good as those players are, they weren't hooking up to make plays with anyone but Kucherov. Other years, yes, but this year the whole team came back from summer vacation around March.

Spin, he has a three of the best players in the game as a supporting cast and people act like he's a one man team. It's just a lie and we all know it.

Did he make Hyman a 50 goal guy?

And I'm fine with him winning the thing.

 

[Fatass]

Kooch will win the Hart. How come Matthews isn’t in the running?

 

[thegazelle]

Personally, I think if it was between Kucherov, MacKinnon and McDavid in the end, there is no bad choice. In watching hockey this year, all three contributed to both their teams' success in various ways, made others around them better, and also achieved individual milestones. I can toss in my head who should take it but then I think of a reason one of the other two guys should take it. It has been enjoyable watching all three excel and in my books, I would be happy if any one of three of them won. If anyone else was in the mix other than these three, I would probably not be as convinced. Well deserved for Kucherov, MacKinnon or McDavid. Would be interested in knowing which one of these guys (presumably) gets the Ted Lindsay.

 

[Bourne Endeavor]

I don't know how it isn't Kucherov. A 54 point lead over everyone else on Tampa is just insanity. He quite literally embodied being the most valuable player.

 

[blundluntman]

I do think Mackinnon will end up winning the Hart. Objectively, Kuch has a better claim but I'm not gonna lose any sleep over his robbery if I'm keeping it a buck

 

[Rschmitz]

Spin, he has a three of the best players in the game as a supporting cast and people act like he's a one man team. It's just a lie and we all know it.

Did he make Hyman a 50 goal guy?

And I'm fine with him winning the thing.

Naw, it's the reverse. All of these guys have a great supporting cast, but for some reason people always claim that Kucherov plays on a stacked team. As if Makar/Rantanen and Draisaitl/Bouchard doesn't exist.