Hart Trophy: Who has better claim?

Zirakzigil

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I think its between Kucherov and Mack. I lean Kucherov though. When you look at his stats against top 10 teams and how much better he was compared to others on his team, its not close. End of the day its an award for most valuable player to his team. Mack, McDavid and Mathews all had more help around them.
 

Toby91ca

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Less bottom feeders and more teams with 110 plus points. Makes a deeper conference top to bottom. Mack performed worse against the top 10 teams and scored less points per game and overall against lesser teams in his conference . Seems pretty easy to see who performed better.
Less bottom feeders and more teams with 110 plus points does not mean tougher conference.....there are 16 teams per conference, you have to look at all and as I already pointed out, the East, on balance, have given up more goals. I keep seeing the stat that shows Kucherov having better stats against top 10 teams....of course there are questions about where those teams were at the time, but could also be game plans as well.....good teams focus on shutting down MacK as they feel they can handle the rest as everything starts with him vs. an approach with Tampa to not worry about Kucherov....he'll get his points, but if they limit everyone else...better chance to win. Not saying there is any truth to that, but that is certainly possible.....my bigger question here is: why does performance against top 10 teams = easy to see who performed better? Doesn't that just show how they preformed against the top 10 teams? What about the rest of their season? Did Kucherov suck against non-top 10 teams then?
 

Toby91ca

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Kuch has 6 extra points over MacKinnon. Stretched over 82 games that's one extra point every 14 games. Considering the difference in off puck play between the two, I think MacK deserves it more.
That's mostly where I sit...but thinking about whether I arbitrarily put a 5pt threshold in.....so if Kuch leads by more than 5 points, I vote for him....but if MacK is within 5pts I vote for MacK? Kind of silly really, but gotta give some meaning to Art Ross....perhaps others will have the bar at 10pts.

For me, if Mack was the Art Ross winner, it's an easy call (for me....I know others will have different views)....so the question becomes at what point to you flip to Kuch and yes, I think it's between those 2.
 

Fish on The Sand

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Hart Trophy: Who has better claim?


Nikita Kucherov:
- Art Ross Trophy
- 100 Assists. First ever winger to do it. Previous record was 87.
- 54 Points clear of closest teammate
- 1'st in PPG


Nathan Mackinnon:
- 2'd in Art Ross Trophy
- 3'd in PPG
- +34
- 35 Points more than the closest teammate


Connor McDavid:
- 100 Assists
- 3'd in Art Ross Trophy
- 2'd in PPG
- +35
- 26 Points more than the closest teammate
Point for MacKinnon is that he had the lead weight that is Drouin playing for him and he still excelled while making Drouin look competent.
 
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Outl4w

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Less bottom feeders and more teams with 110 plus points does not mean tougher conference.....there are 16 teams per conference, you have to look at all and as I already pointed out, the East, on balance, have given up more goals. I keep seeing the stat that shows Kucherov having better stats against top 10 teams....of course there are questions about where those teams were at the time, but could also be game plans as well.....good teams focus on shutting down MacK as they feel they can handle the rest as everything starts with him vs. an approach with Tampa to not worry about Kucherov....he'll get his points, but if they limit everyone else...better chance to win. Not saying there is any truth to that, but that is certainly possible.....my bigger question here is: why does performance against top 10 teams = easy to see who performed better? Doesn't that just show how they preformed against the top 10 teams? What about the rest of their season? Did Kucherov suck against non-top 10 teams then?
No he still outscored Mack against weaker teams, top 10, and overall while playing more teams that aren't at the bottom of the nhl.
 
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authentic

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I think its between Kucherov and Mack. I lean Kucherov though. When you look at his stats against top 10 teams and how much better he was compared to others on his team, its not close. End of the day its an award for most valuable player to his team. Mack, McDavid and Mathews all had more help around them.

It's also not just an award for most valuable *offensive* player to his team, and Kucherov is firmly the worst of the 4 defensively. He could very well win it though and I would not say it is undeserved but others do have a serious case over him as well.
 

Duder54

Registered User
Sportsnet turds were still giving their vote to Mack after last night's TB - TOR game.

This should be Kuch 100% but narrative is going to play a massive part.
This, unfortunately. I'm not necessarily a Kucherov fan, but he's a great player and imo the Hart should go to him this year. The "MacK is due" narrative will be strong though I think.
 

nbwingsfan

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Panarin, Hellebuyck or Hughes seem like the pick
I would think Pastrnak, who I’d actually have 4th.

What he did with the next closest teammate having what? 67pts I think? Is pretty incredible.

Add in that his line mates were Zacha and Heinen and leans more in his favour
 

Toby91ca

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No he still outscored Mack against weaker teams, top 10, and overall while playing more teams that aren't at the bottom of the nhl.
So....overall their total scoring is very close (with 6pts with a game to play for MacK)......and you are going to try and paint a picture that Kuch signifcantly outscored MacK in games against teams in the top 10, while at the same time, also scored more against the weaker teams? How is that possible? Unless you are cherry picking.....more against top 10 and more against bottom 10, but we'll forget all about the teams in the middle? Not sure if bottom 10 is even true or top 10 for that matter, but I'll take the stats you provided at face value, which suggests Kuch would have scored 94pts against teams outside the top 10 and MacK would have scored 112pts.

As note, who cares if there are more teams at the bottom in the West? Overall there are more mediocre teams in the middle in the East.....the Eastern teams have given up more goals than the teams in the West....that's just a factual data point....I'm happy to ignore it, but don't use it as an argument for Kuch suggesting it's harder for him to scorer because of the better competition.....that's simply not true.
 

Bank Shot

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So....overall their total scoring is very close (with 6pts with a game to play for MacK)......and you are going to try and paint a picture that Kuch signifcantly outscored MacK in games against teams in the top 10, while at the same time, also scored more against the weaker teams? How is that possible? Unless you are cherry picking.....more against top 10 and more against bottom 10, but we'll forget all about the teams in the middle? Not sure if bottom 10 is even true or top 10 for that matter, but I'll take the stats you provided at face value, which suggests Kuch would have scored 94pts against teams outside the top 10 and MacK would have scored 112pts.

As note, who cares if there are more teams at the bottom in the West? Overall there are more mediocre teams in the middle in the East.....the Eastern teams have given up more goals than the teams in the West....that's just a factual data point....I'm happy to ignore it, but don't use it as an argument for Kuch suggesting it's harder for him to scorer because of the better competition.....that's simply not true.
What's the argument for Mackinnon to win the Hart over Kucherov, besides its "His turn"?

A big portion of the argument for Mackinnon seems to be based on the fact that he hasn't won any major individual hardware, but he's good so he should get a trophy this year as kind of a lifetime achievement award.
 
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Toby91ca

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What's the argument for Mackinnon to win the Hart over Kucherov, besides its "His turn"?

A big portion of the argument for Mackinnon seems to be based on the fact that he hasn't won any major individual hardware, but he's good so he should get a trophy this year as kind of a lifetime achievement award.
I couldn't care less about any narrative being discussed and MacKinnon being due....I suppose someone could use that if it's impossible to make a decision otherwise.

I've been pretty clear, I don't think it's an easy vote at all, it's very close, I'm actually not sure who I'd pick, but I might lean to MacKinnon with the argument that the points are very close with MacKinnon scoring more goals, MacKinnon has been the better overall player, his teams results are better with him on the ice vs. off the ice to a greater degree than Kucherov. This is why I suggested if the points were close, I'd lean to MacKinnon, question is how close does it need to be....I'm assuming MacKinnon scores some points tonight, so it will be less than 5pt gap....at 140pts, that's not much.

Mack is not better just a different player than Kuch.
Super subjective of course....pretty sure there are lots of people that think Mack is a better player
 

Breakfast of Champs

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What's the argument for Mackinnon to win the Hart over Kucherov, besides its "His turn"?

A big portion of the argument for Mackinnon seems to be based on the fact that he hasn't won any major individual hardware, but he's good so he should get a trophy this year as kind of a lifetime achievement award.
Nobody ever actually uses this as their reason though, and then a ton of people who want kuch or another player always repeat this but I've yet to see a mackinnon supporter in the debate say that they chose him because he hasn't won. There are valid arguments for him to win, just like there is with Kucherov. I don't think I've ever seen a fan base play thr victim and pump a narrative as much as kucherov supporters are when the repeat the same 3 reasons and say its because of some media conspiracy.
 
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Flat Ronnie

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Hart Trophy: Who has better claim?


Nikita Kucherov:
- Art Ross Trophy
- 100 Assists. First ever winger to do it. Previous record was 87.
- 54 Points clear of closest teammate
- 1'st in PPG
- only 3rd player in NHL HISTORY to score 40 Goals and 100 assists in a season. Joining Getzky and Lemieux
Fixed. That simply cannot be overlooked.
 
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T REX

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Feb 28, 2013
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The MVP debate is a wrap.


Yup. Short list. Should be Kuch. All 4 have cases but Kuch literally dragged his team all year. 100 assists. Only 5 have ever done it. Five. One is the greatest of this gen. Hope they make the right choice.
 
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Kingfan1967

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Oct 6, 2017
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All great players
Kuch - 40g/100a
Mac - less talent around him still a top point getter
McDavid - after the oilers terrible start almost won their division , and 100a
Mathews - 69, oh so close
Hellebuyck - where would Winnipeg be without him
 

DistantThunderRep

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Mar 8, 2018
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Granted I haven't watched many Colorado games this year. So this is a genuine question and kind of an argument for Kuch winning the Hart.

Does Colorado make the playoffs if MacKinnon goes down for an extended period of time? Because I can tell you right now, if Kuch went down, Nashville would be laughing all the way to the lottery with Tampa's first round pick.
 
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