Hart Trophy Tournament (Post 2000's) Round 2: 2006 Thornton vs 2019 Kucherov

[blundluntman]

MATCHUP #2 (Round 2): Joe Thornton 2006 vs Nikita Kucherov 2019

Joe Thornton (2005-06):
82 GP 29 G 96 A 125 Points | 1st In Scoring, 1st in Assists

Nikita Kucherov (2018-19):
82 GP 38 G 87 A 128Points | 1st in Scoring, 1st in Assists


Round 2 Matchups:
Sakic 01 vs Forsberg 03 Thread
Thornton 06 vs Kucherov 19
Crosby 07 vs Ovechkin 08
Malkin 12 vs Price 15
Draisaitl 20 vs McDavid 23
McDavid 21 (Awarded Bye Week)

Round 1 Results

Click to read more...

 

[bobholly39]

Kucherov.

I actually like Thornton's season, and think it's impressive he managed to win hart/help turn SJ around by being traded mid-year. But in the end, Kucherov simply had the better season.

Kucherov helped lead Tampa Bay to the 4th greatest point season in NHL history (5th now) with 128 points. His own 128 points was the highest total seen in almost 30 years at the time.

 

[banks]

Kucherov's season was a banger. No insult for Jumbo to lose this one. Big Joe was doing something special, just not as special.

 

[Video Nasty]

It's close, but I have to give the slightest of edges to Thornton. I think some of his story has gotten lost in the nearly 20 years since.

Just can't ignore San Jose's immediate turn of fortune the moment he stepped on the ice for them. They were on a 10 game losing streak, had a record of 8-12-4 with 63 goals (2.63 GPG) scored in 24 games. Cheechoo had 7 goals and 15 points in those 24 games.

Thornton immediately propelled them to a 36-15-7 finish with 203 goals scored (3.50 GPG) and helped Cheechoo pot 49 goals and 78 points in those 58 games with Thornton, who dished out 72 assists and had 92 points in those 58 games.

Kucherov was special, but he didn't have the type of singular effect that Thornton had on his team.

Fun fact: Despite not playing San Jose's first 24 games, he still factored in on 34.6% of their entire season goals total. Not that much lower than the 39.4% Kucherov factored in on for all 82 of his team's games.

If we take the 33 points he had on the 81 goals Boston scored (40.7% while missing 3 of their games) before he was traded, and combine it with his San Jose production, 92 points on 203 goals (45.3%), he actually comes out ahead with his 125 points generated off 294 goals (42.5%).

 

[Jwads]

I'm not going to vote because I don't pay any attention to regular season TB games, but Thornton just had so much less help in those first three seasons in SJ. He was so fun to watch out there and really changed the whole franchise around in an instant.

 

[JackSlater]

I'd go Thornton. He didn't play with players nearly as good as Kucherov did and he brought more outside of offence than Kucherov did.

 

[Regal]

I'd go Thornton. He didn't play with players nearly as good as Kucherov did and he brought more outside of offence than Kucherov did.

That’s kind of what I’m thinking. Pretty similar offense relative to the league but less support and better outside of the offense.


I think Kucherov’s year got a little overrated by some at the time because of the league scoring going up but after what we’ve seen since, it’s obvious that the “highest total in 30 years” or whatever was pretty meaningless. Especially since Thornton was only 3 points back. It was a strong Art Ross year but I don’t think it was a standout season.

 

[Sky04]

That’s kind of what I’m thinking. Pretty similar offense relative to the league but less support and better outside of the offense.


I think Kucherov’s year got a little overrated by some at the time because of the league scoring going up but after what we’ve seen since, it’s obvious that the “highest total in 30 years” or whatever was pretty meaningless. Especially since Thornton was only 3 points back. It was a strong Art Ross year but I don’t think it was a standout season.

Ah right because Thornton's year wasn't a time when scoring was massively increased and the entire league was transitioning out their slow, useless defenseman right? Thornton barely edged out Jagr by 2 points, Kucherov beat out McDavid by 12, goals per game was less in 2019 than it was in 2006 as well.

 

[Regal]

Ah right because Thornton's year wasn't a time when scoring was massively increased and the entire league was transitioning out their slow, useless defenseman right? Thornton barely edged out Jagr by 2 points, Kucherov beat out McDavid by 12, goals per game was less in 2019 than it was in 2006 as well.

When did I say Thornton’s year wasn’t high scoring? His year stood out after the lockout but was quickly overshadowed by Crosby and Ovechkin, and I think has been lost a bit over time. Meanwhile after DPE 2.0 in the mid 2010s, Kucherov’s year also stood out, but unlike Joe I think still has some recency bias surrounding it despite rising league scoring putting the year in context, including a better year from Kucherov himself this year. I’m not saying it’s not a great year or Thornton’s is on another level, but I think some people hold it higher than it should be imo. It’s on a similar level to this Thornton year or Kane’s Art Ross which he beat last round.

2006 was higher scoring by an average of 4 goals per team. It was a very minor difference. And while Thornton’s lead over Jagr was smaller, that’s only one player and McDavid missed time (he paced for 6 points back). Thornton had a bigger lead over 3rd place (19 to 18)and the same lead over 10th (32). Overall, the top 10 scorers outside of Thornton in ‘06 averaged 102.8 points and the top 10 outside of Kucherov in ‘19 averaged 102.6. Again, super minor. Thornton also had more primary points (99 to 94).

 

[Johnny Tomala]

Thornton.

 

[bobholly39]

I'm pretty shocked Thornton is currently winning this. I think Kucherov definitely has the better season here

 

[ijuka]

I think this is Kucherov ainec, not sure how it's even.

 

[mr figgles]

I think this is Kucherov ainec, not sure how it's even.

Look at the impact Thornton had on the sharks when he arrived, and compare the rosters of the two teams. I at first was thinking Thornton by a hair, then looked at the roster… now it‘s Thornton by a mile.

 

[Midnight Judges]

I went with Kucherov - goal scoring being the tie breaker here but Thornton has a case for sure.

 

[Regal]

I think this is Kucherov ainec, not sure how it's even.

Not sure how anyone could think it’s not close

 

[JackSlater]

Not sure how anyone could think it’s not close

Ask in a few years and Thornton will comfortably win. Similar offence in a similar environment, but one guy brought more outside of offence and played with worse players. One guy just won the Art Ross though and the other is mainly tagged as a playoff loser.

 

[Regal]

Ask in a few years and Thornton will comfortably win. Similar offence in a similar environment, but one guy brought more outside of offence and played with worse players. One guy just won the Art Ross though and the other is mainly tagged as a playoff loser.

That might be true as more time affects how Kucherov’s year is seen, though I think Thornton’s year has been maybe forgotten about a bit too much.

One thing that probably gets ignored with Joe is that he was also similarly efficient to Kucherov, which was a big part of the talk surrounding his year. Because Thornton PKed for over 2 minutes a game, his actual offensive ice time wasn’t that high.

In terms of P/60 at ES, here’s the leaders in 05-06:

Thornton 3.85
Jagr 3.35
Palffy 3.30
Spezza 3.24
Nylander 3.23

And in 18-19:

Kucherov 3.62
McDavid 3.32
Marner 3.23
Kane 3.17
Gaudreau 3.16

And PPP/60 in 05-06:

Thornton 7.04
Datsyuk 6.92
Forsberg 6.60
Alfredsson 6.58
Spezza 6.53

And in 18-19:

Kucherov 9.42
Pastrnak 8.91
Marchand 8.16
Kessel 8.15
Stamkos 8.06

 

[kp61c]

it's ainec