Post-Game Talk: Harkins appreciation night

[Honour Over Glory]

I think even when you look at some of the panned moves like Granlund there is a case to be made that Sullivan was heavily responsible for f***ing up those moves and making them even worse than they were on paper.

Like Granlund was a bad idea by Hextall, but there was a scenario where we could have gotten actual value out of him and that scenario would have been putting him in the top six and giving him lots of PP time. And yeah he probably shouldn't have been acquired in the first place because there wasn't necessarily room on pp1 for him. But either way, putting him as a checker was not it.

For Granlund, the usage was just terrible. Sullivan didn't know how to use him and then tried to use him as a 3c the way he uses Eller. I think the opportunity to move Malkin to wing and go Zucker, Granlund, Malkin was the way to go and instead Sullivan basically pouted with having to use him.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I just can't believe that the Pens are going to sacrifice everything just to keep Mike Sullivan.

Say what you will about Dubas and Hextall's moves. Perhaps they do deserve blame for some poor roster moves. But they have tried to change the roster. They both made significant moves, for better or worse. And the same coach has been managing both rosters with the same poor results.

At this point there's only one major thing left to try and that is to change the coaching staff. When you keep getting the same results with different players, what else can you do?

But if Dubas/FSG take that off the table as an option then it is what it is. We're going to see the Pens slowly get worse and worse until our stars retire or Dubas finally pulls the plug on Sullivan and kicks off the rebuild.

It's pretty clear that Sullivan's very well liked by Sid, or else he'd have been gone a long time ago imo. Even if the entire organization and greater hockey world has a very high opinion and respect for Sully, he's only still here because of Sid and probably to a lesser degree, Geno. The team's made it clear the only thing that matters for these last however many years is that Sid's happy. Winning takes an extreme backseat.

 

[Andy99]

It's pretty clear that Sullivan's very well liked by Sid, or else he'd have been gone a long time ago imo. Even if the entire organization and greater hockey world has a very high opinion and respect for Sully, he's only still here because of Sid and probably to a lesser degree, Geno. The team's made it clear the only thing that matters for these last however many years is that Sid's happy. Winning takes an extreme backseat.

Yep, it’s unfortunate…I would hope someone like Dubas could sit Sid down and explain that if he wants to try to win again, they have to fire the coach and reload with some younger legs…

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Yep, it’s unfortunate…I would hope someone like Dubas could sit Sid down and explain that if he wants to try to win again, they have to fire the coach and reload with some younger legs…

This team's not winning shit while Sid's still playing. They may not even make the playoffs again for a decade. The team needs to sit him down and tell him he's more than welcome to retire a Penguin, but the time for going all-in and spending to the cap is over. The tear down needs to begin in earnest this summer regardless.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Yep, it’s unfortunate…I would hope someone like Dubas could sit Sid down and explain that if he wants to try to win again, they have to fire the coach and reload with some younger legs…

Sid being a huge fan of Sully and why he is staying would be really shitty. But then again this team seems to do whatever he wants.

That's never a good thing when a player is dictating his wingers, coach, etc.

 

[The Old Master]

It's pretty clear that Sullivan's very well liked by Sid, or else he'd have been gone a long time ago imo. Even if the entire organization and greater hockey world has a very high opinion and respect for Sully, he's only still here because of Sid and probably to a lesser degree, Geno. The team's made it clear the only thing that matters for these last however many years is that Sid's happy. Winning takes an extreme backseat.

i just find it hard to believe that Sid doesn't put winning number one.

 

[Darren McCord]

i just find it hard to believe that Sid doesn't put winning number one.

He's won everything.

 

[SomeDude]

Yep, it’s unfortunate…I would hope someone like Dubas could sit Sid down and explain that if he wants to try to win again, they have to fire the coach and reload with some younger legs…

Sid would tell him that’s now how we do things in Pittsburgh as Rob Rossi watches from a dark corner of his mind.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

i just find it hard to believe that Sid doesn't put winning number one.

He does. He just might believe that Sullivan being coach is the way to win.

 

[Andy99]

He does. He just might believe that Sullivan being coach is the way to win.

He also is more a creature of habit than anything else…he feels comfortable with his friends around…I mean look at that sweaty ballcap he used to wear constantly…players, especially successful ones, are also delusionally optimistic about their prospects of winning given their own talents lol…someone clear headed needs to sit Sid down …

 

[The Old Master]

He's won everything.

to reach that high a level of competition you learn quickly that what happened yesterday doesn't mean a thing. it's about the next one.

He's won everything.

there is always the next one
any hunter that shoots a big deer doesn't stop hunting, next year he ot there trying to get an even bigger one.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I mean, the real issue is that this organization's full of the kind of extreme self-confidence, bordering on arrogance, that makes it impossible for them to step back and evaluate things legitimately. They absolutely love the stink of their own shit and think they're still an upper echelon hockey club despite being more than half a decade removed from a playoff series win. There's no urgency because they don't think the past few years have been anything but a few unfortunate bounces. Sid and Geno included.

FWIW, I don't think Sid's outright directing things, but the only concern organization-wide seems to be making sure nobody even mildly annoys Sid with any decisions.

 

[Darren McCord]

to reach that high a level of competition you learn quickly that what happened yesterday doesn't mean a thing. it's about the next one.


there is always the next one
any hunter that shoots a big deer doesn't stop hunting, next year he ot there trying to get an even bigger one.

Disagree. When you have done it all, sometimes you just want to enjoy whats left. Sid looks content playing with his friends until he wants to hang it up. Not saying thats what happens but he isnt Brady and he isnt the guy who will become a mercenary to try and win more.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

He also is more a creature of habit than anything else…he feels comfortable with his friends around…I mean look at that sweaty ballcap he used to wear constantly…players, especially successful ones, are also delusionally optimistic about their prospects of winning given their own talents lol…someone clear headed needs to sit Sid down …

He's also spoken often about the importance of playing for one team. So, in his head, he may believe that the best way to be competitive in his final years of a team approaching significant transition is to be as comfortable as possible with people who have been there/done that.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

I don't think Sid's satisfied with his career. A guy who gets to that level--top-5 all time--never gets satisfied with his career. I just don't think he's the kind of guy to speak out and demand changes or dictate lines either. It's a buncha dork ass losers in decision making positions who suck shit at evaluating talent, while simultaneously being too craven to rock the boat.

Extremely unlikable franchise lately.

 

[Andy99]

He's also spoken often about the importance of playing for one team. So, in his head, he may believe that the best way to be competitive in his final years of a team approaching significant transition is to be as comfortable as possible with people who have been there/done that.

Right but his own history belies that belief, as he’s won the Cup twice with two new coaches…players need to be challenged…I know he doesn’t want that at age 36 but if he truly wants to win again things will need to change

 

[CascadiaPenguin]

2017 we got two all time goalie performances and no one knew what to do with Sid and Jake, plus we got an insane run from Phil and Geno on top of that. Plus most of our opponents had key injuries to their best players. We abandoned the 2016 system, insulated the goalie and hoped for our top 6 to win us games on bounces and putting away every chance. We got lucky.

2017 broke Sully, it was never a sustainable system but he continues to use it to this day.

Nearly every recent team than wins the Cup claims good luck/good fortune. There is so much parity in the league the differentials are small and fleeting. I'm not about to retroactively degrade the coaching performance of a team that wins the most rigorous post season playoff in professional sports or take seriously any argument that does.

Penguins were hardly injury free. Hagelin was playing on a fibula he broke a month before the playoffs started that never healed. Murray was playing lights out on a hamstring torn right before G1 against CBJ. Dumo's hand was a mashed mess. Bonino's tibia broke in two blocking Subban's shot. Letang missed the entire playoffs, Kunitz, Schultz, and Horny missed time, even Sid was out a game. Even the Rossi family ice cream truck was under the weather.

 

[Gurglesons]

I mean, the real issue is that this organization's full of the kind of extreme self-confidence, bordering on arrogance, that makes it impossible for them to step back and evaluate things legitimately. They absolutely love the stink of their own shit and think they're still an upper echelon hockey club despite being more than half a decade removed from a playoff series win. There's no urgency because they don't think the past few years have been anything but a few unfortunate bounces. Sid and Geno included.

FWIW, I don't think Sid's outright directing things, but the only concern organization-wide seems to be making sure nobody even mildly annoys Sid with any decisions.

Bordering on arrogance? lol.

This is the most arrogant team in the league for six years running.

It's wild how good they think they are when they've been embarrassed in basically every possible way you could under Mike Sullivan.

 

[DesertedPenguin]

Bordering on arrogance? lol.

This is the most arrogant team in the league for six years running.

It's wild how good they think they are when they've been embarrassed in basically every possible way you could under Mike Sullivan.

I don't believe that they think they've been embarrassed outside of last year. I think they believe they have reasonable excuses for at least some of their recent early exits, thereby absolving them of some of the blame.

I bet they even believe that the flat cap the last few years has made the league even tougher, which is why every night is grind. There might be some truth to that, but that doesn't mean you just accept it, either.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Bordering on arrogance? lol.

This is the most arrogant team in the league for six years running.

It's wild how good they think they are when they've been embarrassed in basically every possible way you could under Mike Sullivan.

I'm tryin' to be nice, man.

 

[Gurglesons]

I don't believe that they think they've been embarrassed outside of last year. I think they believe they have reasonable excuses for at least some of their recent early exits, thereby absolving them of some of the blame.

I bet they even believe that the flat cap the last few years has made the league even tougher, which is why every night is grind. There might be some truth to that, but that doesn't mean you just accept it, either.

It’s funny because they are arrogant in a way that they try to come off as not arrogant. They play down to their competition because they “respect” every team, but when you watch them play they think they are just absolute studs still.

Mike Sullivan thinks the Powerplay will figure it out. He thinks EK has another level. He thinks he sees things in his bottom six etc.

If they were arrogant in the right way it may be beneficial, but they are this weird vibe of arrogance while trying to be very respectful and just “sticking to playing the game the right way”.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

He also is more a creature of habit than anything else…he feels comfortable with his friends around…I mean look at that sweaty ballcap he used to wear constantly…players, especially successful ones, are also delusionally optimistic about their prospects of winning given their own talents lol…someone clear headed needs to sit Sid down …

Someone should sneak into the locker room and steal Sid's sweaty ballcap, then blame it on Sullivan saying Sullivan got tired of looking at that disgusting thing.

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

For Granlund, the usage was just terrible. Sullivan didn't know how to use him and then tried to use him as a 3c the way he uses Eller. I think the opportunity to move Malkin to wing and go Zucker, Granlund, Malkin was the way to go and instead Sullivan basically pouted with having to use him.

The other issue with Granlund is Sullivan refused to change his mindset about what a third line could be. Instead of retooling the lineup to have 3 lines that can score, Sullivan stubbornly stuck to the 3rd line as a checking line, and he insisted that Granlund play like a typical "checking 3C" play.

Like, the actual acquisition might have actually been a positive one if the damn coach saw that we added another OFFENSIVE weapon and didn't insist on playing him like we added Jordan Staal.

 

[Big Friggin Dummy]

Someone should sneak into the locker room and steal Sid's sweaty ballcap, then blame it on Sullivan saying Sullivan got tired of looking at that disgusting thing.

At this point, give it a shot. Whatever gets this loser coach outta here so he's not coaching the next crop of prospects coming into the system.

f*** it, go the full way and switch out Sid's peanut butter for his pre-game sandwich with a different brand and say Sully did it.

 

[The Great Mighty Poo]

Pillow Pants Harkins is the reason I got drunk at a Super Bowl party and peed my body weight about 3 times over last night.