Hamilton Bulldogs & Wheeling Nailers 2014-2015 Part 7 (MOD post 303)

[HCH]

There has been a lot of talk on the boards about whether an AHL coach should be measured on his ability to develop players or his ability to win games. While the two seemingly should go hand in hand, the importance of winning games and making playoffs should not be underestimated.

Making the playoffs allows the GM to evaluate his talent in a playoff environment to see how the players perform under more pressure than usual. It also gives the GM additional games where he can evaluate players. The extended season creates an opportunity for junior and college graduates to join the team and get a taste of the pro environment before the next season.

I think strides have been made in the development of the farm system but it needs to be taken to the next level. I don't know if the onus falls on the coach or management to field a more competitive team but it needs to be more competitive.

 

[montreal]

There has been a lot of talk on the boards about whether an AHL coach should be measured on his ability to develop players or his ability to win games. While the two seemingly should go hand in hand, the importance of winning games and making playoffs should not be underestimated.

Making the playoffs allows the GM to evaluate his talent in a playoff environment to see how the players perform under more pressure than usual. It also gives the GM additional games where he can evaluate players. The extended season creates an opportunity for junior and college graduates to join the team and get a taste of the pro environment before the next season.

I think strides have been made in the development of the farm system but it needs to be taken to the next level. I don't know if the onus falls on the coach or management to field a more competitive team but it needs to be more competitive.

As someone that watches the AHL closely for years now, I don't really know where I stand on winning in the AHL and the impact it has on your NHL club. Clearly you want to win and the experience of the playoffs is something you want your highest level prospects to go through, I just don't really know how much impact it really has one way or the other.

As a huge Dogs and soon to be Ice Caps fan though, having your team miss the playoffs 3 years in a row just sucks. Granted watching Price win the Calder Cup was outstanding, but not being a part of the playoffs for so long now makes me wonder what impact it has on the prospects by not getting playoff experience and what impact it has on management in their decision to either bring him back or look for a replacement. Perhaps management is happy that Beaulieu, DLR, Pateryn, Tok have made the Habs even though they have had their struggles as well especially to produce for the skaters and win for the goalie.

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but when you have Scherbak and McCarron incoming, I just hope management is asking themselves when it comes to the AHL coaching staff next year and beyond, can we do better?

 

[yoyo999]

As someone that watches the AHL closely for years now, I don't really know where I stand on winning in the AHL and the impact it has on your NHL club. Clearly you want to win and the experience of the playoffs is something you want your highest level prospects to go through, I just don't really know how much impact it really has one way or the other.

As a huge Dogs and soon to be Ice Caps fan though, having your team miss the playoffs 3 years in a row just sucks. Granted watching Price win the Calder Cup was outstanding, but not being a part of the playoffs for so long now makes me wonder what impact it has on the prospects by not getting playoff experience and what impact it has on management in their decision to either bring him back or look for a replacement. Perhaps management is happy that Beaulieu, DLR, Pateryn, Tok have made the Habs even though they have had their struggles as well especially to produce for the skaters and win for the goalie.

I know I'm beating a dead horse, but when you have Scherbak and McCarron incoming, I just hope management is asking themselves when it comes to the AHL coaching staff next year and beyond, can we do better?

I think it really depends on the parent organization.

In 2012, ,The Marlies made the Calder Cup finals and the leafs are a disaster. The Dallas Eakins experiment in Edmonton was also a disaster, but that was more the organization.

Contrast that to Tampa where they won in 2012 with Jon Cooper and a Norfolk team that included Mark Barberio, Radko Gudas, Alex Killorn, Ondrej Palat. Guys that all play roles on the team.

 

[Le Barron de HF]

There has been a lot of talk on the boards about whether an AHL coach should be measured on his ability to develop players or his ability to win games. While the two seemingly should go hand in hand, the importance of winning games and making playoffs should not be underestimated.

Making the playoffs allows the GM to evaluate his talent in a playoff environment to see how the players perform under more pressure than usual. It also gives the GM additional games where he can evaluate players. The extended season creates an opportunity for junior and college graduates to join the team and get a taste of the pro environment before the next season.

I think strides have been made in the development of the farm system but it needs to be taken to the next level. I don't know if the onus falls on the coach or management to field a more competitive team but it needs to be more competitive.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1866839&highlight= Might as well bump the research I made.

 

[Whitesnake]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1866839&highlight= Might as well bump the research I made.

Is not making the playoffs year after year after year makes your team thrash? I don't think anybody wants the farm team to win the Cup every year. But how about starting to just make the playoffs? I don't think we need any stats to tell us that it's important because the players that will be NHL players soon, will have a chance to know what's it's like to play pro hockey in a playoff environment. It gives them more challenges, gives them more experience.

 

[IceCapsFanNL]

Contrast that to Tampa where they won in 2012 with Jon Cooper and a Norfolk team that included Mark Barberio, Radko Gudas, Alex Killorn, Ondrej Palat. Guys that all play roles on the team.

That was a great team. They beat the IceCaps that year in the Eastern Finals. The Caps really were not in the series. I think that having a successful AHL winning culture can only help the NHL team.

More significantly, i think having your NHL prospects in a city where they are recognized in the community, play in a full, loud arena, and have fans who hold the players accountable also helps get ready for playing in the NHL.

 

[Treb]

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1866839&highlight= Might as well bump the research I made.

This is great. Shows that you need to win.

While even with a good coach the Bulldogs may not be Calder contender, I'm pretty sure they could have at least squeeked in the playoffs.

 

[montreal]

I think it really depends on the parent organization.

In 2012, ,The Marlies made the Calder Cup finals and the leafs are a disaster. The Dallas Eakins experiment in Edmonton was also a disaster, but that was more the organization.

Contrast that to Tampa where they won in 2012 with Jon Cooper and a Norfolk team that included Mark Barberio, Radko Gudas, Alex Killorn, Ondrej Palat. Guys that all play roles on the team.

a valid point, on top of that I would look at the rosters of said AHL club. Did the club win with a bunch of your top prospects or were they carried by some excellent AHL vets. I do admit though while being a big AHL fan, I'm only a Hamilton fan just like I'm only a Habs fan, meaning I only follow the Dogs/Habs and don't watch any games at all outside of my team. So once their season ends, that's it I don't follow their respective leagues or any teams left so that means I haven't seen an AHL finals since Price took Hamilton to the Calder Cup.

Is not making the playoffs year after year after year makes your team thrash? I don't think anybody wants the farm team to win the Cup every year. But how about starting to just make the playoffs? I don't think we need any stats to tell us that it's important because the players that will be NHL players soon, will have a chance to know what's it's like to play pro hockey in a playoff environment. It gives them more challenges, gives them more experience.

I surely don't understand why management wouldn't be concerned that their prospects haven't gotten to experience AHL playoff hockey under this coaching staff. After 3 years and your top 2 prospects incoming, I would think they would want to make a change. But I guess it comes down to them just wanting their prospects to be NHL ready when they get the call. Not that I think they are wrong but what I don't get is why they don't think they can do better?

 

[Whitesnake]

I surely don't understand why management wouldn't be concerned that their prospects haven't gotten to experience AHL playoff hockey under this coaching staff. After 3 years and your top 2 prospects incoming, I would think they would want to make a change. But I guess it comes down to them just wanting their prospects to be NHL ready when they get the call. Not that I think they are wrong but what I don't get is why they don't think they can do better?

No idea. Or just the fact that it,s always tough for a GM to admit he was wrong....I would bet that if Lefebvre would not have been Bergevin's pick...he would have been gone for now.

But even if what you say is true, and I'm not saying it isn't....who from the farm team delivered once they've been called up? DLR? Okay....Beaulieu? Well he had tons of ups and down but lately, was playing better? Who else? Everybody else we saw did okay...but clearly not good enough as they are still not with us. We've seen Bournival regress. When people use the Gallagher explanation to show how great Lefebvre is....I think it's a sign of how much he sucks. If Lefebvre is able to change a 5ht rounder with no NHL future into a really good 20-goal scoring NHL winger in just 33 games....how the heck is Tinordi and Beaulieu not #1 and #2 then, especially when the coach plays the same position than those 2? Gallagher has nothing to do with Lefebvre. So as of now, it leaves DLR and the today Beaulieu to show that there was some nice job made by the coaching staff. Yet....look at A WHOLE LOT of AHL teams....and you'll see the same result. AND you'll probably see a better playoff result on top of that.

 

[HCH]

You think every single defenceman is done progressing at 23 or 24?

If you read carefully, I said he was done progressing this year. The season is over. No where did I say he was done progressing. I was asking, at this point in his development, would you be comfortable with Tinordi replacing Emelin.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1866839&highlight= Might as well bump the research I made.

Sorry, was away from the boards for a while didn't see your original post.

I am interested in hearing what everyone thinks about Carr vs Sorkin. Both are roughly the same age and had similar stats in college. Carr outscored Sorkin in Hamilton but can some of that be attributed to linemates, ice time and power play opportunities.

Does Sorkin have those Dale Weise-like skills that could make him a solid fourth liner? Or should the Habs even offer him a contract?

Is Carr good enough to become a 3rd liner or better? He doesn't seem like a 4th line kind of player.

 

[montreal]

No idea. Or just the fact that it,s always tough for a GM to admit he was wrong....I would bet that if Lefebvre would not have been Bergevin's pick...he would have been gone for now.

But even if what you say is true, and I'm not saying it isn't....who from the farm team delivered once they've been called up? DLR? Okay....Beaulieu? Well he had tons of ups and down but lately, was playing better? Who else? Everybody else we saw did okay...but clearly not good enough as they are still not with us. We've seen Bournival regress. When people use the Gallagher explanation to show how great Lefebvre is....I think it's a sign of how much he sucks. If Lefebvre is able to change a 5ht rounder with no NHL future into a really good 20-goal scoring NHL winger in just 33 games....how the heck is Tinordi and Beaulieu not #1 and #2 then, especially when the coach plays the same position than those 2? Gallagher has nothing to do with Lefebvre. So as of now, it leaves DLR and the today Beaulieu to show that there was some nice job made by the coaching staff. Yet....look at A WHOLE LOT of AHL teams....and you'll see the same result. AND you'll probably see a better playoff result on top of that.

well I would hope and believe that MB and his staff wouldn't keep Lefebvre just because they don't want to admit a mistake. For me I just feel they should be looking at the situation as can we do better and I hope the answer is yes we can.

as for the development, I've been against Lefebvre all along and that's not going to change anytime soon. I don't give him credit for half a season with Gallagher, or Tokarski since he was playing Mayer over him at times which drove me nuts. Bournival I do place more blame on management for the way they handled him by calling him up too soon and keeping him too long.

Beaulieu I've been saying in various threads I'm not sold on him, I am glad to see him make a big leap forward but I am disappointed that he has struggled so much in the past and still struggles to produce offensively while being shaky in his own end at times. Pateryn has been a nice story and could be something for us next year assuming he has a full season under his belt, I am interested to see how it goes for him as I think he can do even better then he's done this year.

DLR I still don't really know what to make of, I love his defensive game, he can play a good physical game but haven't seen that much of it as opposed to when he was first called up. But his offensive game is a major concern to me, I wasn't on board with the call up as I was concerned it would be a mistake to bring him up too soon as I worried it would hamper his offensive game. Time will tell as perhaps it won't be an issue. Thomas has been a huge disappointment to me, as you know I was a huge Kristo fan but for me Thomas has never impressed me in the AHL and while I thought he played better in the NHL then I was expecting, the offense wasn't there and for me that's a massive part of his game so if it's not there then what do you really have with him? Ghetto I like a lot, going to be a very interesting season for him next year as he's going to have to work on his defensive game but is fun to watch and does bring the offense. Hudon I looking forward to seeing the most out of our AHL prospects this year, Condon as well. One things for sure in regards to our AHL coaching staff, they must keep Vincent Riendeau since he's done an outstanding job these past 2 years with Tok and Condon in Hamilton.

But I was going off the fact that it sounds like Lefebvre will be back or at least that's the vibe I got from Grant's post a while back,

The poster that calls him or herself Chris Nilan is not out in left field in asserting that "Montreal" can focus a little too heavily on the supposed inability of Lefebvre to develop players.

For me the true litmus test is how they perform at the NHL level when they are called up....they are after all being developed for the NHL..not for the AHL, and I don't have a whole lot of issues with how Lefebvre is faring this season.

Thomas looked like he was well coached..as did Pateryn, and especially DLR. Andrighetto looked good until it scared Therrien and he buried him on lower lines, the last time Beaulieu got called up..I saw a decided progression in his defensive game...I suspect Lefebvre and his staff had something to do with that.

I've seen Montreal argue that Beaulieu hasn't improved and so on, but for the most part I've disagreed..i think you have unfairly labeled Lefebvre as a poor teacher, and have harped on that subject for more than a year... even though this season several players have shown a marked improvement in their pro games. You would also have to include Hudon...who is a lot better pro prospect today than he was 12 months ago. Condon as well, and Carr.

Has every prospect panned out? No...there are always going to be Leblancs. Trevor Timmins told me that they "tried everything" to pack some weight on Leblanc..but you can't shove food down their throats and lift the weights for them. Not sure it's always the AHL coach's fault when a high pick doesn't pan out..sometimes they are simply poor picks. Trevor admits today that Leblanc wasn't the right selection..he doesn't think his minor league coach's are to blame, and neither do I. His character was overestimated.

Teaching a young prospect like Tinordi to make a good first pass quickly and to have vision is o easy task. The Hunters worked on Tinordi for two years on that,, and while he showed improvement..once the game sped up again at the pro level Tinner had some struggles. You can work all you want on that problem..but it doesn't always pay dividends right away. Lefebvre has has less than two full seasons with Tinordi..not like he's setting some sort of record with him. Still too early to give up on Tinordi..and it's not like the weaknesses in his game weren't also weaknesses when he played junior.

Going into this season I was less than enamoured with what Lefebvre had done..but in looking at the results this season I have changed my opinion on his ability to develop young prospects to play an NHL style game.

I am interested in hearing what everyone thinks about Carr vs Sorkin. Both are roughly the same age and had similar stats in college. Carr outscored Sorkin in Hamilton but can some of that be attributed to linemates, ice time and power play opportunities.

Does Sorkin have those Dale Weise-like skills that could make him a solid fourth liner? Or should the Habs even offer him a contract?

Is Carr good enough to become a 3rd liner or better? He doesn't seem like a 4th line kind of player.

I haven't been impressed with Sorkin, I wouldn't give him an NHL contract, perhaps they bring him back on an AHL one though.

Carr I need to see more, others have spoken highly of him and he had a good season goal scoring wise. In the few games I've seen though he hasn't really impressed me much so I don't know what his future is. I could see him getting a look in the NHL next year at some point so we'll see how it goes. I also don't see him as a 4th liner although he may have to play there to get a look since they put Ghetto there even this season at times.

 

[Rikiki Bousquet]

Came here to say that the Laval rink is getting constructed at high speed now after years of debate. Four cranes and many mobile houses all around.

It's probably the only place in the world where this info might be considered interesting but whatever.

 

[HCH]

Came here to say that the Laval rink is getting constructed at high speed now after years of debate. Four cranes and many mobile houses all around.

It's probably the only place in the world where this info might be considered interesting but whatever.

If the Habs AHL affiliate eventually moves to Laval, I think it will be a major step forward for the organization. It simplifies the ability of management to monitor the progress of the team, it simplifies re-calls to the parent club and it exposes the prospects to the Montreal environment and all things that go with it.

It's a very interesting possibility.

 

[DD51*]

No idea. Or just the fact that it,s always tough for a GM to admit he was wrong....I would bet that if Lefebvre would not have been Bergevin's pick...he would have been gone for now.

But even if what you say is true, and I'm not saying it isn't....who from the farm team delivered once they've been called up? DLR? Okay....Beaulieu? Well he had tons of ups and down but lately, was playing better? Who else? Everybody else we saw did okay...but clearly not good enough as they are still not with us. We've seen Bournival regress. When people use the Gallagher explanation to show how great Lefebvre is....I think it's a sign of how much he sucks. If Lefebvre is able to change a 5ht rounder with no NHL future into a really good 20-goal scoring NHL winger in just 33 games....how the heck is Tinordi and Beaulieu not #1 and #2 then, especially when the coach plays the same position than those 2? Gallagher has nothing to do with Lefebvre. So as of now, it leaves DLR and the today Beaulieu to show that there was some nice job made by the coaching staff. Yet....look at A WHOLE LOT of AHL teams....and you'll see the same result. AND you'll probably see a better playoff result on top of that.

Can we questioned the scouting staff too ?

 

[Whitesnake]

Can we questioned the scouting staff too ?

Absolutely. Even if I say that Timmins is our MVP, he's clearly not without fault. Thing is when you start comparing him to his peers, he has to be amongst the best. Though at one point....we might have to revise that.

 

[montreal]

If the Habs AHL affiliate eventually moves to Laval, I think it will be a major step forward for the organization. It simplifies the ability of management to monitor the progress of the team, it simplifies re-calls to the parent club and it exposes the prospects to the Montreal environment and all things that go with it.

It's a very interesting possibility.

It sounds like it's a done deal.

Can we questioned the scouting staff too ?

Question everything and everyone in order to do better.

 

[No fan fiction]

I think it really depends on the parent organization.

In 2012, ,The Marlies made the Calder Cup finals and the leafs are a disaster. The Dallas Eakins experiment in Edmonton was also a disaster, but that was more the organization.

Contrast that to Tampa where they won in 2012 with Jon Cooper and a Norfolk team that included Mark Barberio, Radko Gudas, Alex Killorn, Ondrej Palat. Guys that all play roles on the team.

You make a good point.

My position all along has been the same as Red Fisher's long-standing axiom: "Show me the players."

Since Bergevin took over, the Bulldogs have had neither the talent level nor the depth--don't forget Smith and Conacher were on that Norfolk team, too--up and down the bench to allow them to compete successfully for a playoff run, let alone compete for the Calder Cup.

This team and its coaching staff have been saddled with a pretty bad draft results from 2011, 2010, and 2009. Those players would and should be the core of the AHL team. Again, show me the players. There just aren't any.

At the same time, Bergevin and crew took over for 2012. The players are starting to accumulate and it is showing. Next year will be telling for a number of reasons but, as with previous years, I would still not be surprised if there are players who go right to the NHL from college/jr. instead of spending prolonged stretches in the AHL.

Next season will be a better indication of the talent assessment of Bergevin's staff, the development skills of the entire player development group (not just the bench staff), and the long term plan.

As an aside, it should also be interesting to at least be rid of Hamilton and the cake-and-eat-it-too mentality. Lest we forget, especially at this time of year, that Hamilton fan, led by the experts at the Spec, complained loud and long about some Jr. A goalie being jammed down their throats for the playoffs.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=374432

Let's see, re-read that expert thread--one of a few. Apparently, sending that goalie--Carey Price--to lead them to the Calder Cup victory was an insult to all the players in the room and all of Hamilton. Show me the player.

 

[Team_Spirit]

credit to swisshabs

 

[yoyo999]

You make a good point.

My position all along has been the same as Red Fisher's long-standing axiom: "Show me the players."

Since Bergevin took over, the Bulldogs have had neither the talent level nor the depth--don't forget Smith and Conacher were on that Norfolk team, too--up and down the bench to allow them to compete successfully for a playoff run, let alone compete for the Calder Cup.

This team and its coaching staff have been saddled with a pretty bad draft results from 2011, 2010, and 2009. Those players would and should be the core of the AHL team. Again, show me the players. There just aren't any.

At the same time, Bergevin and crew took over for 2012. The players are starting to accumulate and it is showing. Next year will be telling for a number of reasons but, as with previous years, I would still not be surprised if there are players who go right to the NHL from college/jr. instead of spending prolonged stretches in the AHL.

Next season will be a better indication of the talent assessment of Bergevin's staff, the development skills of the entire player development group (not just the bench staff), and the long term plan.

As an aside, it should also be interesting to at least be rid of Hamilton and the cake-and-eat-it-too mentality. Lest we forget, especially at this time of year, that Hamilton fan, led by the experts at the Spec, complained loud and long about some Jr. A goalie being jammed down their throats for the playoffs.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=374432

Let's see, re-read that expert thread--one of a few. Apparently, sending that goalie--Carey Price--to lead them to the Calder Cup victory was an insult to all the players in the room and all of Hamilton. Show me the player.

My point was really that success in the AHL is not a true indicator of what's in the cards for a team or even an individual player. Does it help? Sure. Success anywhere helps but there is so much more involved. Also, I was at the last 2 games in 2007 when they won the calder cup and in retrospect, it wasn't really a good team. The best forwards were Maxim Lapierre and Kyle Chipchura. Ryan O'Byrne and Andre Benoit were probably the best D. The only player to make a real impact in the NHL (outside of Price) would be Mikhail Grabovski.

If we're basing it solely on AHL performance, I'd rather a situation like ours or Tampa's where they consistently make the playoffs and even go far instead of the Marlies, where they could have maybe won a calder cup but havn't made the playoffs in close to a decade and when they did suffered the biggest humiliation in hockey history. Some of those players of which were on that Marlies team...

 

[Bastulon]

I don't know if it's relevant to this thread, or an IceCaps one for next year but the IceCaps have hired Jason King as new Dir. of Hockey Ops.

He will be in charge of the Habs prospects travel, hotels and help out with the coaching staff. Bring on 2015-2016!

http://www.stjohnsicecaps.com/article/icecaps-make-front-office-changes/

 

[DAChampion]

The main issue is that Lefebvre is not doing a great job with development.

He's been in Hamilton for three years and the onky player to legitimately crack the roster in a contributing role is Nathan Beaulieu, and that's after two and a half years in Hamilton and he's probably not doing as well as his talent.

Tinordi, Pateryn, Andrighetto, Bournival, Tokarski, are all marginal or worse.

Depending on how you count, Lefebvre's output is 50-75% below reasonable expectations.

 

[SOLR]

The main issue is that Lefebvre is not doing a great job with development.

He's been in Hamilton for three years and the onky player to legitimately crack the roster in a contributing role is Nathan Beaulieu, and that's after two and a half years in Hamilton and he's probably not doing as well as his talent.

Tinordi, Pateryn, Andrighetto, Bournival, Tokarski, are all marginal or worse.

Depending on how you count, Lefebvre's output is 50-75% below reasonable expectations.

Or Timmins is over-evaluated by 50-75%.

No evaluation of Lefebvre should be done without an evaluation of the players selected by Timmins.

 

[dcal64]

Or Timmins is over-evaluated by 50-75%.

No evaluation of Lefebvre should be done without an evaluation of the players selected by Timmins.

So Timmins drafts a good player, but Lefebvre does a poor job of developing him, it's Timmins fault for drafting the good player?

All the good players on the Habs were developed before Lefebvre was hired, and mostly drafted by Timmins. So why did previous Hamilton coaches do wonders with Timmins draft picks?

 

[Team_Spirit]

So Timmins drafts a good player, but Lefebvre does a poor job of developing him, it's Timmins fault for drafting the good player?

All the good players on the Habs were developed before Lefebvre was hired, and mostly drafted by Timmins. So why did previous Hamilton coaches do wonders with Timmins draft picks?

Because the coaches (Jarvis,Lever,Boucher) back then were not forced to use Michel's system. Simply because he was not our coach.

The problems with this team always goes back to MT. Fire Therrien.

 

[Bastulon]

Because the coaches (Jarvis,Lever,Boucher) back then were not forced to use Michel's system. Simply because he was not our coach.

The problems with this team always goes back to MT. Fire Therrien.

Dallas Eakins did the same thing when Edmonton hired him.
Oklahoma started to play his systems, use his swarm and it didn't work.

It'd be real swell if the team next year doesn't have to suffer because MT is still employed.