Hall or no Hall?

[Diving Pokecheck*]

1. Sergei Zubov
A lot like Larry Murphy- always one of the better defensemen, never elite. A solid contributor to 2 Stanley Cup wins, but only a single 2nd team all-star.

2. Rogie Vachon
For my money, him and Makarov are the two best players not in the Hall. Vachon has 3 Stanley Cups (one as a starter), two second all-star teams, and a 2nd place Hart finish, beating out Orr and Lafleur. Not being in is a shame.

3. Mark Howe
3 first team all-stars and 3 finals appearances make a good argument.

Click to read more...

 

[Dark Shadows]

Mark Howe is easily the best on that list, and yes, he should be in the Hall.

No to Sergei Zubov.

No to Rogie Vachon

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I would say no to Zubov:

- His Norris voting record is relatively weak (3, 4, 8, 8, 9, 9). Zubov has been consistent for a long time but was only better than being on the outer fringe of the top ten twice in his career ('94, '06). His voting record is similar to Wilson (1, 3, 4, 4), Housley (3, 5, 5, 5, 9, 10), Gonchar (4, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9) and Chara (2, 3, 4, 7), and none of those players are likely to make the HOF.

- He's never been especially good defensively (though he was certainly better than Housley and Gonchar). Indeed, a lot the Stars' success was predicated on the letting Zubov focus on the PP/transition game, and letting Hatcher take care of the defensive/physical duties.

- In Zubov's favour, though, he was the 2nd highest scoring defenseman since he entered the league (behind Lidstrom) which underscores his consistency. He finished in the top five in defenseman scoring four times ('94, '98, '03, '06). On the other hand, Zubov had a very long streak of being merely okay (nine times in the twelve years between '95 and '07 he finished between 8th and 20th in scoring).

- Zubov has been great in the playoffs (huge amount of ice time and second only to Lidstrom in defenseman PO scoring since he entered the league). He's been the #2 defenseman on two Stanley Cup winning teams.

 

[MS]

Zubov is one of those guys who leaves a very positive impression because he was very good at the end of his career, and it makes you almost forget how ordinary he was for the decade between 1994-2004. I've cited the Norris Trophy voting given above in the past - quite simply, you don't make the HHOF when you've been higher than 8th in voting twice and never come close to winning the award.

Vachon should have been in ages ago. His performances in the mid-1970s on a mediocre Kings team were truly elite. Won a Stanley Cup as a #1. Brilliant at the 1976 Canada Cup.

Howe is the best eligible defender not in the HHOF. Runner-up for the Norris three times, probably the best all-around defender in the league in the mid-1980s.

 

[MXD]

1. Sergei Zubov : see Rob Blake. In fact, it depends if you consider the era is/was a good one for D-Mens.


2. Rogie Vachon ; should've

3. Mark Howe : should've, but JC Tremblay is a better player.

 

[Sony Eriksson*]

Mark Howe is easily the best on that list, and yes, he should be in the Hall.

No to Sergei Zubov.

No to Rogie Vachon

So the highest scoring Russian Defenseman to every play in the NHL won't make the HHOF? He has more points than Igor larionov who will be inducted in the '08 class...I never heard of being nominated or winning the Norris was the stamp of approval for being inducted into the hall. I figured i would base my decision on how valuable he was to his team and what he accomplished throughout his fantastic career. Maybe i would look at his 2 Stanley Cups, Olympic Gold Medal, anchored one of the top teams in the NHL over the last 12 yrs...Who has been and is being currently underrated by the thread and the people who don't watch him on a daily basis.

 

[Jumptheshark]

No to all on the list

Zubov points is due inpart to how long he has played.

HHof has tretziuk there--so when you factor Larinov's career over it's 30 years and not just the nhl--that is whyhe is there--Trets nevr played a game in the NHL--but he is there---Also--LArinov was a trail blasser for russians in the nhl to allow guys like Zubov to come over

 

[Sony Eriksson*]

No to all on the list

Zubov points is due inpart to how long he has played.

HHof has tretziuk there--so when you factor Larinov's career over it's 30 years and not just the nhl--that is whyhe is there--Trets nevr played a game in the NHL--but he is there---Also--LArinov was a trail blasser for russians in the nhl to allow guys like Zubov to come over

Zubov is going into his 16th yr and he has a total of 767 NHL points. That's and average of 47 points per yr...which in my mind is pretty damn good. 16yrs is alot but nowadays 16yrs for a player is pretty common I don't think Zubov will possibly be first ballot but 2nd or 3rd would be right for him.

 

[Dark Shadows]

So the highest scoring Russian Defenseman to every play in the NHL won't make the HHOF? He has more points than Igor larionov who will be inducted in the '08 class...I never heard of being nominated or winning the Norris was the stamp of approval for being inducted into the hall. I figured i would base my decision on how valuable he was to his team and what he accomplished throughout his fantastic career. Maybe i would look at his 2 Stanley Cups, Olympic Gold Medal, anchored one of the top teams in the NHL over the last 12 yrs...Who has been and is being currently underrated by the thread and the people who don't watch him on a daily basis.

NHL achievements only mean nothing to me in that context. Zubov is easily the LOWEST ranked on that list of 3. And Larionov's NHL career pales in comparison to his CSKA and international play. How many points he scored in the NHL in the decline of his career is irrelevant. Larionov is not being inducted for what he did in the NHL

I know you are a stars fan so Ill bear with you(You voted Modano ahead of Chelios for greatest American player, which is impossible), but Zubov is not that good.

Nationality should have no bearing on voting in the hall anyways. Even if it did, I can name a few other Russian Defensemen who deserve to be in the hall ahead of Zubov. Valeri Vasiliev for example.


Zubov has been ordinary for most of his career, not great. To be in the hall, Greatness is a must. Heck yes Norris voting matters and all star voting matters. You need to have been seen as stellar at your position, not merely good, or you need to do some groundbreaking work. He might have improve his lacking defensive play in the last few seasons, but he was a rover for most of his career. Others covered the Defensive aspect while he brought the offense. Listing off team accomplishments is nice and all, but individual accomplishments matter more.

Another thing. Scott Niedermayer is not yet a hall of fame caliber player. 1 or 2 more good seasons might get him over the hump, but he is not a Hall worthy player yet, and he exceeds Zubov.

Mark Howe is easily the best on this list, and he was a far better Defenseman than Zubov. J.C Tremblay, as another mentioned, is another defenseman who is better who has not yet graced the hall.

 

[seventieslord]

1. Sergei Zubov
A lot like Larry Murphy- always one of the better defensemen, never elite. A solid contributor to 2 Stanley Cup wins, but only a single 2nd team all-star.

2. Rogie Vachon
For my money, him and Makarov are the two best players not in the Hall. Vachon has 3 Stanley Cups (one as a starter), two second all-star teams, and a 2nd place Hart finish, beating out Orr and Lafleur. Not being in is a shame.

3. Mark Howe
3 first team all-stars and 3 finals appearances make a good argument.

Zubov, NO
Vachon NO
Howe YES

 

[Diving Pokecheck*]

I do not quite understand why people are against Vachon in the Hall.
I believe that the only post-WW2 goalies to win the cup and not be elected into the Hall are Vernon and Ranford.
Vachon was the MVP of the '76 Canada Cup, was named to 2 second all-star teams, and finished second in Hart voting (After Clarke, Ahead of Orr, Lafleur, Parent.)

 

[Big Phil]

Zubov - NO
Vachon - Yes
Howe - Yes

Vachon was pretty damn good. Outside of when he left the Habs in '71 he was just never on a very good team afterwards. But he won three Cups, was 2nd team all-star twice and was brilliant in the '76 Canada Cup. He had 351 wins. Plus he had some remarkable years (73-'78) on what was always a brutal Kings team. Did he get Dick Irvin and the others on the board mad at him somehow? I dont know, but he should have been in 15 years ago.

Howe has three first team all-stars. No defenseman has that type of hardware and no HHOF. He needs to be in there eventually but as time goes on it only hurts him. Howe was great, and who saw him will remember him, but he was never someone that you would talk about to your grandkids which will hurt him as time goes on. Still though, he should be in

Zubov had 89 points in '94. He somehow did not make the first or second team all-star that year. That is a telling story. Now, of course the guys that were there (Stevens, Bourque, MacInnis, Leetch) are all HHOFers and were at least as good as offensive players that year while being better defensive (even Leetch) so he had great company. But he never had remotely close to an elite season until '06 where he was a 2nd team all-star. The Zubov/Murphy comparison is weak too I think. Murphy has 3 2nd team all-stars and 4 Cups. Zubov just two Cups and Murphy was almost always a very good defenseman for 21 years. Zubov, I just dont see it

 

[MS]

So the highest scoring Russian Defenseman to every play in the NHL won't make the HHOF? He has more points than Igor larionov who will be inducted in the '08 class...I never heard of being nominated or winning the Norris was the stamp of approval for being inducted into the hall. I figured i would base my decision on how valuable he was to his team and what he accomplished throughout his fantastic career. Maybe i would look at his 2 Stanley Cups, Olympic Gold Medal, anchored one of the top teams in the NHL over the last 12 yrs...Who has been and is being currently underrated by the thread and the people who don't watch him on a daily basis.

Teppo Numminen, Roman Hamrlik, and Uwe Krupp are all the highest-scoring defenders from their nations, too, and won't have a sniff of the HHOF. That doesn't mean a lot.

You don't think the voting, year-by-year, on who the best defenders in the league are has any impact on HHOF credentials? You'll be on your own on that one.

Defense has been the most predictable of the three positions for HHOF induction. Generally speaking, you need a 5+ season stretch where you are clearly a top-5 defender in the league and contending for the Norris annually. You don't accomplish that, you aren't getting in. Only guys post-1967 who don't really fit that category are Fetisov (didn't play in the NHL until age 32) and Larry Murphy, but Murphy did have three post-season All-Star nods (so wasn't far off), won 4 Cups, and set the NHL GP record for defenders.

Zubov came into the league as a Phil Housley clone who was great on the PP but crap in his own zone, and didn't have a single elite season between 1994 and 2004. He just isn't a HHOFer.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Zubov - NO
Vachon - Yes
Howe - Yes

Vachon was pretty damn good. Outside of when he left the Habs in '71 he was just never on a very good team afterwards. But he won three Cups, was 2nd team all-star twice and was brilliant in the '76 Canada Cup. He had 351 wins. Plus he had some remarkable years (73-'78) on what was always a brutal Kings team. Did he get Dick Irvin and the others on the board mad at him somehow? I dont know, but he should have been in 15 years ago.

Howe has three first team all-stars. No defenseman has that type of hardware and no HHOF. He needs to be in there eventually but as time goes on it only hurts him. Howe was great, and who saw him will remember him, but he was never someone that you would talk about to your grandkids which will hurt him as time goes on. Still though, he should be in

Zubov had 89 points in '94. He somehow did not make the first or second team all-star that year. That is a telling story. Now, of course the guys that were there (Stevens, Bourque, MacInnis, Leetch) are all HHOFers and were at least as good as offensive players that year while being better defensive (even Leetch) so he had great company. But he never had remotely close to an elite season until '06 where he was a 2nd team all-star. The Zubov/Murphy comparison is weak too I think. Murphy has 3 2nd team all-stars and 4 Cups. Zubov just two Cups and Murphy was almost always a very good defenseman for 21 years. Zubov, I just dont see it

I agree.

I've always liked Zubov a lot, thought he was always underrated, but I don't think he's an HOFer. When watching Vachon or Howe in there prime, definitely thinking they were HOFers.

 

[MXD]

The thing with Zubov is that he's likely to add some nice seasons, numbers and ... memories ... to his resume. I wouldn't discount him yet. While Blake probably won't add anything to his resume untill he retires. Hence why I think those two are really close to each other.

 

[greatgazoo]

2. Rogie Vachon
For my money, him and Makarov are the two best players not in the Hall. Vachon has 3 Stanley Cups (one as a starter), two second all-star teams, and a 2nd place Hart finish, beating out Orr and Lafleur. Not being in is a shame.

QUOTE]

Actually, Vachon and Worsley split the duties almost evenly in that Stanley Cup win where you said he was the starter. Vachon was 7-1, Worsley was 5-1.

Two 2nd team all star selections is not very impressive at all. Even Glenn Resch had two of those. Maybe someone should push to get him in the Hall too?

Resch had just as many playoff shutouts as Vachon with 2. And he was part of a Cup winner too!

Resch doesn't belong in the hall, neither does Vachon.

 

[pitseleh]

Mark Howe definitely deserves to be in while Zubov is a no at this point as far as I'm concerned.

Vachon is an interesting case. In the video I've seen of him he looked like a great goalie and a tremendous athlete, but at the same time his resume is similar to a guy like Roberto Luongo with two 2nd team All-Star selections and a Hart runner up while being stuck on bad teams for most of their respective careers. Vachon does have the two Cups though, but one was as a back up and one was in a platoon situation where a 40 year old Gump Worsley was nearly as successful in net for the Habs. I don't know if that's enough to get in.

 

[Ofuzz]

2. Rogie Vachon
For my money, him and Makarov are the two best players not in the Hall. Vachon has 3 Stanley Cups (one as a starter), two second all-star teams, and a 2nd place Hart finish, beating out Orr and Lafleur. Not being in is a shame.

QUOTE]

Actually, Vachon and Worsley split the duties almost evenly in that Stanley Cup win where you said he was the starter. Vachon was 7-1, Worsley was 5-1.

Two 2nd team all star selections is not very impressive at all. Even Glenn Resch had two of those. Maybe someone should push to get him in the Hall too?

Resch had just as many playoff shutouts as Vachon with 2. And he was part of a Cup winner too!

Resch doesn't belong in the hall, neither does Vachon.

So you come up with the "stellar" stat of Glenn Resch having the same amount of playoff shutouts as Vachon (2). Way to dig deep. Don't even compare Resch with Rogie. When the Isles got good, Billy Smith was their goalie. If you want to go to some meat and potato stats, lets start with Vachon's 350+ wins, 50+ shutouts, and let's not forget that the only thing Chico Resch got to do in the '76 Canada Cup was open and close the gates to the team bench. Rogie never even gave the other goalies a sniff at getting in. I liked Chico Resch when he played but to even hint that he was Vachon's equal is a huge reach.

Vachon, Mark Howe, and Fred Shero are the Hall's biggest oversight.

 

[cupcrazyman]

NO
NO
NO

Next Question.

 

[Fredrik_71]

I feel like a schmuck but I will say NO, NO and NJ..... The closest one is Mark Howe because of 3 first line all-star selections. Thats true elite but is it enough??? 16 seasons as a Dman? Damn this is hard

/Cheers

 

[Chili]

I didn't see Howe as a hall of famer in the NHL but his WHA play should be considered as well. Zubov is close too.

Vachon would certainly get my vote. His performance in the 1976 Canada Cup is one of the best goaltending performances I've seen in a major international tournament.

 

[Don Nachbaur 26]

HHof has tretziuk there--so when you factor Larinov's career over it's 30 years and not just the nhl--that is whyhe is there--Trets nevr played a game in the NHL--but he is there---Also--LArinov was a trail blasser for russians in the nhl to allow guys like Zubov to come over

Larionov was elected into the Hockey Hall of Fame, not the NHL Hall of Fame. Larionov centered one of the most dominant lines hockey has ever seen (KLM). Zubov while a very good player...to me...isn't a player that I would associate with the HHOF.