Had Bobby Orr been a forward .....

[Vagrant]

We all know that Bobby Orr had a father that encouraged him to play forward and had it not been for the instruction of Bucko McDonald, he would have been. Do you think he would have been more productive as a forward or was he simply destined to play defense?

I consider him to be the greatest hockey player of all time ....but you have to wonder what numbers he would have produced as a forward. What say you?

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[HockeyThoughts]

Thats a good question, but the same question can be said about something like..What if Wayne Gretzky were a goalie? Would he totally **** statistics and just game stealing wise? With his vision of the ice, he'd always be able to position himself in time for the perfect save. Would Eric Lindros own as a defender? With his bone crunching style he could would be able to dominate games from the blueline.

To many if's/and's. But yeah I think if he had grown up as a foward he'd dominate as hard as he did as a defender. You are born with hockey sense, you get trained in hockey skill. Your hockey sense just determines what your ceiling is.

 

[Loto68]

Well there would have been no one to make break out passes

 

[ck26]

If Bobby Orr would have played forward, he would have been Bobby Clarke.

 

[Slapshooter]

If Bobby Orr would have played forward, he would have been Bobby Clarke.

Grit-wise may be, but I bet Orr had more talent with the puck than all those bobby clarkes.

Orr would have scored even more as a forward.

 

[bruins309]

The number one difference if Orr was a forward is that I think he would have stayed healthier over the course of his career. Without making the end to end rushes that he famously made as a defenceman, there would be less opportunities for him to be slew-footed at center ice.

Someone with Orr's ability in that era could have put up 125-150 points a year as a center. I'm using Phil esposito as the model here, and I think Orr would have produced even more if he was a forward, and healthy.

But without Orr changing the role of defencemen, the game would be a lot worse off for it.

 

[FissionFire]

Bobby Orr as a forward probably wouldn't even be a Top 10 All-time player, especialy with the shortened career. He might not even crack the Top 20. A big part of his greatness and legend is that he WAS a defenseman and revolutionaized the position.

 

[BNHL]

Bobby Orr as a forward probably wouldn't even be a Top 10 All-time player, especialy with the shortened career. He might not even crack the Top 20. A big part of his greatness and legend is that he WAS a defenseman and revolutionaized the position.

Baloney! With a much reduced defensive responsibility his numbers would grow even as his minutes declined. The numbers were done on another thread.

 

[Weztex]

He certainly wouldn't have the status he has now. Like FissionFire said, the fact that he was a (great) defenseman and still dominated the league in the offensive aspect is what makes Bobby Orr a top 2 player of all-time. Orr playing forward would be more like mix between Howe and Lemieux. To match those two he may have had to extend his career 7-8 more years.

 

[vwg*]

His skating and end to end rushes would have been less and sort of wasted as a forward. Like other people said, he revolutionized the defense position. There were way more "offensive" defenseman after Orr than there were before him. I don't think his legacy would have been as a great. While it's nice to lead the league in most offensive statistical categories as a forward, it's so much better to do it as a D-man.

 

[hfboardsuser]

But without Orr changing the role of defencemen, the game would be a lot worse off for it.

Am I alone in thinking this part of Orr's legacy is a bit overrated? While he certainly is the greatest ever to play at his position, he wasn't the first to rush the puck. I'd argue that Flash Hollett and Eddie Shore were the reason Orr was able to play the way he did.

 

[BNHL]

This thread is teeming with crapola!

 

[BNHL]

His goals would increase, his assists would go down by a little bit, and his points would have a little more meaning (less secondary assists far away from that play). His defense would suffer a bit simply due to positioning, though not by much as he was used to rushing and could get back into the play.

He would be around a 50-60 goal 80-100 assist player and be better defensively than Beliveau, Trottier, Mikita, Kurri, and Clarke (who I consider the best 5 two way forwards ever). His place in history would remain the same. Even though he probably wouldn't lose much of a step defensively, people overrate defenseman's defensive play simply due to their position.

Generally I don't consider defenseman to be equal to forwards because defensemen as a whole are more passive and make less of an impact on the game. If you put a great defenseman on the wing like Harvey or Bourque, his play would suffer. However, a player like Bobby Orr played everywhere on the ice.

He'd have Lemieux numbers,Nystrom PIMS and win the Selke.

 

[habsfan44]

We all know that Bobby Orr had a father that encouraged him to play forward and had it not been for the instruction of Bucko McDonald, he would have been. Do you think he would have been more productive as a forward or was he simply destined to play defense?

I consider him to be the greatest hockey player of all time ....but you have to wonder what numbers he would have produced as a forward. What say you?

i've wondered about this as well and it's my opinion that if orr had played twenty years as a center relatively injury free similar to gretzky , then gretzky would be sitting in second place on the all time scoring list .

 

[pitseleh]

Am I alone in thinking this part of Orr's legacy is a bit overrated? While he certainly is the greatest ever to play at his position, he wasn't the first to rush the puck. I'd argue that Flash Hollett and Eddie Shore were the reason Orr was able to play the way he did.

What Flash Hollett and Eddie Shore did was during a completely different era which makes it less comparable, IMO. The idea of a rushing defensman was essentially phased out of the game (especially to the extent that Orr did it) by the time Orr came around. The game was played much differently back then.

Neither Shore nor Hollett (or Cameron or Clancy for that matter) were nearly as productive as Orr was offensively.

 

[Murphy7]

Put Orr at forward in Boston, OK. But what line would he be on? If he's a center, he's going to be a second-liner behind the established Espo. He wouldn't have had the same opportunity as he did on defense. I'm sure he had the talent to pile up points, but numbers also depend on ice time and the others on the ice. As a D-man, he could play with Espo. As a forward, he might only get power play time with the vets on the first line. Remember, the late 60s and early 70s featured very established ways where veterans often won out over younger guys. The fact he was a defenseman helped him shake up the establishment.

 

[Stonefly]

Put Orr at forward in Boston, OK. But what line would he be on? If he's a center, he's going to be a second-liner behind the established Espo. He wouldn't have had the same opportunity as he did on defense. I'm sure he had the talent to pile up points, but numbers also depend on ice time and the others on the ice. As a D-man, he could play with Espo. As a forward, he might only get power play time with the vets on the first line. Remember, the late 60s and early 70s featured very established ways where veterans often won out over younger guys. The fact he was a defenseman helped him shake up the establishment.

Depending on which forward position Orr played he would have most definitely displaced who ever held that position previously on the top line. Espo included.

 

[BNHL]

Depending on which forward position Orr played he would have most definitely displaced who ever held that position previously on the top line. Espo included.

Absolutely,Espo would have been working with Bucyk and McKenzie and Orr with Hodge and Cashman,assuming he played center.

 

[reckoning]

The top offensive defencemen usually only get points on about 50% of the goals that are scored when they're on the ice. The top offensive forwards will usually be about 75-80%.

Orr was at 52.9% for his career. If we imagine he would be at 80% as a forward (around where Gretzky is) then that would give Orr approx. 1384 career points. That would over 2.00 PPG, which would be the highest mark ever of the modern era. However, Gretzky and Lemieux were both over 2.00 PPG in their career at age 30, only to have their marks decrease as they played into their late-30s. The same likely would've happened to Orr if he played to that age. So I can't say if he would've had more points than Gretzky, but it would be close.

The flaw here is that this is assuming the Bruins would've still scored as much with Orr at forward. I don't think they would have. So much of offence starts from defence. Without Orr's 30-35 minutes a game on defence, who would've led the Bruins transition game? Putting Orr at forward would not be best taking advantage of his tremendous skating ability.

So if Orr was a forward, he would've racked up more points but the Bruins may not have been as successful.

Put Orr at forward in Boston, OK. But what line would he be on? If he's a center, he's going to be a second-liner behind the established Espo.

Putting Orr at centre would be a worst-case scenario. Espo was such an ice-time hog, Orr would be spending most of his time waiting at the bench for Espo to finally take himself off.

 

[Murphy7]

Gotta agree with Reckoning about a center spot. Espo was well-known for forgetting where his bench was.
And I've got to agree with everyone that Orr had the talent to play anywhere he wanted. But remember, his arrival was before the WHA, and the Bruins were not nearly as deep on defense as they were up front. In those days, being better or more talented than the veterans didn't always equal getting your fair share of ice time. Even as a winger, I could see management keeping him on the second line behind vets until he paid his dues. He might have reached Chicago earlier in his career as a forward, skating with the Cougars. The NHL was just different then.

How about this: If Orr's a forward, how much does Carol Vadnais' profile increase?

 

[BNHL]

Gotta agree with Reckoning about a center spot. Espo was well-known for forgetting where his bench was.
And I've got to agree with everyone that Orr had the talent to play anywhere he wanted. But remember, his arrival was before the WHA, and the Bruins were not nearly as deep on defense as they were up front. In those days, being better or more talented than the veterans didn't always equal getting your fair share of ice time. Even as a winger, I could see management keeping him on the second line behind vets until he paid his dues. He might have reached Chicago earlier in his career as a forward, skating with the Cougars. The NHL was just different then.

How about this: If Orr's a forward, how much does Carol Vadnais' profile increase?

Ya mean the player they signed as a 12 year old and waited for with unparalleled anticipation was going to play second fiddle? Forget it. He was the savior and they knew it and so did every player that saw him at his first practice.

 

[BNHL]

The top offensive defencemen usually only get points on about 50% of the goals that are scored when they're on the ice. The top offensive forwards will usually be about 75-80%.

Orr was at 52.9% for his career. If we imagine he would be at 80% as a forward (around where Gretzky is) then that would give Orr approx. 1384 career points. That would over 2.00 PPG, which would be the highest mark ever of the modern era. However, Gretzky and Lemieux were both over 2.00 PPG in their career at age 30, only to have their marks decrease as they played into their late-30s. The same likely would've happened to Orr if he played to that age. So I can't say if he would've had more points than Gretzky, but it would be close.

The flaw here is that this is assuming the Bruins would've still scored as much with Orr at forward. I don't think they would have. So much of offence starts from defence. Without Orr's 30-35 minutes a game on defence, who would've led the Bruins transition game? Putting Orr at forward would not be best taking advantage of his tremendous skating ability.

So if Orr was a forward, he would've racked up more points but the Bruins may not have been as successful.



Putting Orr at centre would be a worst-case scenario. Espo was such an ice-time hog, Orr would be spending most of his time waiting at the bench for Espo to finally take himself off.

Offense was only the offensive part of Orr's game. He excelled defensively and physically too.

 

[Gobias Industries]

The first half of this contains some of the worst posts I've ever seen in the HOH board..

I would forsee the following:

- Wins a good 8 Art Ross Trophies
- Plays 18 seasons

Basically substitute Norris for Art Ross, lengthen the career, and keep the reputation as a top 3-5 ever player..


Just flip the expectations...

He was a great defenceman with an amazing offensive upside..

Conversely,

He was a great forward, who could back check and provide physical play like a defenceman..

 

[BNHL]

The first half of this contains some of the worst posts I've ever seen in the HOH board..

I would forsee the following:

- Wins a good 8 Art Ross Trophies
- Plays 18 seasons

Basically substitute Norris for Art Ross, lengthen the career, and keep the reputation as a top 3-5 ever player..


Just flip the expectations...

He was a great defenceman with an amazing offensive upside..

Conversely,

He was a great forward, who could back check and provide physical play like a defenceman..

It would have been a ridiculous mismatch for defenseman. BTW,I beat Crosby's drum ad nauseum on the greatest players thread. I don't need longevity to know someone's greater than most!

 

[pappyline]

He certainly wouldn't have the status he has now. Like FissionFire said, the fact that he was a (great) defenseman and still dominated the league in the offensive aspect is what makes Bobby Orr a top 2 player of all-time. Orr playing forward would be more like mix between Howe and Lemieux. To match those two he may have had to extend his career 7-8 more years.

There was one forward who went end to end like Orr & that was Bobby Hull so I could see Orr still doing those rushes & a garbage goal guy like Espo still finishing them off.