Guy Lafleur

[DanyHeatleyfnAllstar]

How did he compare to Pavel Bure? Looking at his highlights, he kind of resembles a right-handed, francophone Pavel Bure to me. He could fly and handle the puck with speed, and had a great slapshot. All things that made Pavel great.

Click to read more...

 

[VMBM]

I think he compares VERY favourably to Bure, to say the least. More dominant, far better playmaker, much more of a team player...

If we're talking about flash and dash only, I guess they're pretty even.

 

[shazariahl]

I think he compares VERY favourably to Bure, to say the least. More dominant, far better playmaker, much more of a team player...

If we're talking about flash and dash only, I guess they're pretty even.

Agreed. He was a more complete player in the sense that he was also a great playmaker, not just a great goal scorer. His prime was amazing. I wish I'd been a little older, so I could have really appreciated it.

 

[seventieslord]

Like Bure, but...

- A better team player
- A better playoff performer
- A better defensive player (mainly because this is Bure we're comparing him to)
- As good at making plays as scoring goals
- Not injured during what could have been his best years
- Was able to string together six excellent seasons instead of just two
- Was admittedly very fortunate to have a great team around him and superior coaching which led to a better reputation as a winner

 

[Canadiens1958]

Parallels

Like Bure, but...

- A better team player
- A better playoff performer
- A better defensive player (mainly because this is Bure we're comparing him to)
- As good at making plays as scoring goals
- Not injured during what could have been his best years
- Was able to string together six excellent seasons instead of just two
- Was admittedly very fortunate to have a great team around him and superior coaching which led to a better reputation as a winner

Guy Lafleur never bounced back from a knee injury suffered during the 1980 playoffs against Hartford. After the age of 28/29 he was significantly slower. Like Bure past the age of 28/29 there is very little career worth discussing. Bure's knees were done by the same age as well.

Other comparables. Neither Lafleur nor Bure were leaders. Both tended to distance themselves from their teammates. Neither aged well resulting in conflicts with coaches.

 

[Johnny Engine]

I think he was talking about the long interruption his career suffered around 1996 or so. But yeah, both of them slowed down a lot faster than most top offensive talents. Partially because their games were built so much around their skating.

 

[seventieslord]

Guy Lafleur never bounced back from a knee injury suffered during the 1980 playoffs against Hartford. After the age of 28/29 he was significantly slower. Like Bure past the age of 28/29 there is very little career worth discussing. Bure's knees were done by the same age as well.

Other comparables. Neither Lafleur nor Bure were leaders. Both tended to distance themselves from their teammates. Neither aged well resulting in conflicts with coaches.

At that particular time in history, it was customary for players to stop being major offensive threats by age 29. His performance maybe wasn't what it could have been, but it was in line with natural decline due to age.

Bure, on a per-game basis was dynamite right to the end (which makes sense because he was only 32 which is now still a player's prime) - he just couldn't play enough games to turn those good games into good seasons.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Unless................

At that particular time in history, it was customary for players to stop being major offensive threats by age 29. His performance maybe wasn't what it could have been, but it was in line with natural decline due to age.

Bure, on a per-game basis was dynamite right to the end (which makes sense because he was only 32 which is now still a player's prime) - he just couldn't play enough games to turn those good games into good seasons.

This assumes you actually saw him skate before and after the knee on knee hit by Pat Boutette. After the injury, Lafleurs lateral movement was reduced significantly as was his first step acceleration.

 

[seventieslord]

This assumes you actually saw him skate before and after the knee on knee hit by Pat Boutette. After the injury, Lafleurs lateral movement was reduced significantly as was his first step acceleration.

I don't doubt that. But his per-game point production was fairly (not entirely) consistent with what one would expect due to natural decline.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Not So

At that particular time in history, it was customary for players to stop being major offensive threats by age 29. His performance maybe wasn't what it could have been, but it was in line with natural decline due to age.

Bure, on a per-game basis was dynamite right to the end (which makes sense because he was only 32 which is now still a player's prime) - he just couldn't play enough games to turn those good games into good seasons.

Gilbert Perreault - 1st overall pick,1970 draft. Guy Lafleur - 1st overall pick 1971 draft, Marcel Dionne - 2nd overall pick 1971 draft. Perreault and Lafleur suffered significant knee/leg injuries in 1980 and 1981 and their offensive output dropped as a result. Marcel dionne went injury free and his numbers sustained.

Medical technology and rehab programs were not what they are today. Injuries to the knees or legs had much greater consequences then.

 

[seventieslord]

Gilbert Perreault - 1st overall pick,1970 draft. Guy Lafleur - 1st overall pick 1971 draft, Marcel Dionne - 2nd overall pick 1971 draft. Perreault and Lafleur suffered significant knee/leg injuries in 1980 and 1981 and their offensive output dropped as a result. Marcel dionne went injury free and his numbers sustained.

Medical technology and rehab programs were not what they are today. Injuries to the knees or legs had much greater consequences then.

Dionne was a freak of nature as far as longevity was concerned. He played as long as a 1979 draftee, not a 1971. He's an aberration, not a rule.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Rule?????????

Dionne was a freak of nature as far as longevity was concerned. He played as long as a 1979 draftee, not a 1971. He's an aberration, not a rule.

Between 1917 and the end of the 1970-71 season only 26 NHL players played over 1000 regular season games:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=games_played

Starting with the 1970-71 season and going thru the 1994-95 season, covering the 1970's drafts there are 56 NHL players with over 1000 games played:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=games_played

That is before factoring in overlap players like Brad Park, etc

The expanded schedule starting with the 1967-68 reduced the number of seasons required to play one thousand games while increasing the wear and tear on the body plus the risk of injury.

Effectively the players drafted in the 1970's had long careers in terms of actual games played.

The only aberration seems to be the myth that the 1970's draftees had short careers. The rule seems to be that the players tended to longer careers than their predecessors.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

How much of that is a function of seasons being longer?

Hard to play 1000 games in a career when seasons are 50 games apiece.

 

[Canadiens1958]

70 Game Seasons

How much of that is a function of seasons being longer?

Hard to play 1000 games in a career when seasons are 50 games apiece.

1949-50 thru 1966-67 were the only 70 game seasons. Total of 18 seasons.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=games_played

During that specific span only 7 players over 18 seasons with 6 teams vs 56 over 25 seasons ranging from 14-26 teams to 80+ games per season. The 1970's draftees held their own.

 

[therealkoho]

There's also the advancement in medicine to consider. As a non-specific example, certain injuries that occured 50 years ago could knock the player out for the entire season if not their entire career, now those same injuries might put a player on the LTIR at the expense of 20 or so games.

There is also the factor of conditioning to consider, players of the last 30 years are healthier, better conditioned and because of those two factors are certainly more resiliant which helps to elongate the career.

 

[seventieslord]

Between 1917 and the end of the 1970-71 season only 26 NHL players played over 1000 regular season games:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=games_played

Starting with the 1970-71 season and going thru the 1994-95 season, covering the 1970's drafts there are 56 NHL players with over 1000 games played:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=games_played

That is before factoring in overlap players like Brad Park, etc

The expanded schedule starting with the 1967-68 reduced the number of seasons required to play one thousand games while increasing the wear and tear on the body plus the risk of injury.

Effectively the players drafted in the 1970's had long careers in terms of actual games played.

The only aberration seems to be the myth that the 1970's draftees had short careers. The rule seems to be that the players tended to longer careers than their predecessors.

seriously?

It should be apparent to anyone that players whose careers started around 1970-1977 didn't last as long as the generation before (probably due to the doubling of the league size) or after (probably due to more money at stake)

Studies have even been presented showing how at certain times in history there has been a lack of graybeards in the NHL compared to other times. 1985 and 1990 were particularly sparse as far as very old players were concerned - players who were "old" from 1985-1990 would be mostly players drafted from 1970-1977.

I can't believe you'd even argue against this.

 

[ForsbergForever]

seriously?

It should be apparent to anyone that players whose careers started around 1970-1977 didn't last as long as the generation before (probably due to the doubling of the league size) or after (probably due to more money at stake)

Studies have even been presented showing how at certain times in history there has been a lack of graybeards in the NHL compared to other times. 1985 and 1990 were particularly sparse as far as very old players were concerned - players who were "old" from 1985-1990 would be mostly players drafted from 1970-1977.

I can't believe you'd even argue against this.

By 1988 the only guys still around from the early 70s were Dionne and Larry Robinson, as far as I can tell. The ranks of this draft class thinned considerably in the early 1980s just as they were all hitting 30, its quite the phenomenon really. All the top Quebec-born guys seemed to be hit with serious knee injuries with a year of each other-Lafleur, Perreault, Rick Martin...was it just bad luck, or were players really not conditioned to play into their 30s at a high level? It seems so weird that out of everyone chubby little Marcel Dionne would be the true survivor, though maybe all those early summers had something to do with it...

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

This assumes you actually saw him skate before and after the knee on knee hit by Pat Boutette. After the injury, Lafleurs lateral movement was reduced significantly as was his first step acceleration.

Pat Boutette.

When all-time dirty players come up, he should be mentioned. Perhaps he was too subtle, but seeing him every night in Hartford for a couple of seasons gave me a great appreciation for how much a guy could throw good players off there game by being constantly chippy.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Borje Salming

By 1988 the only guys still around from the early 70s were Dionne and Larry Robinson, as far as I can tell. The ranks of this draft class thinned considerably in the early 1980s just as they were all hitting 30, its quite the phenomenon really. All the top Quebec-born guys seemed to be hit with serious knee injuries with a year of each other-Lafleur, Perreault, Rick Martin...was it just bad luck, or were players really not conditioned to play into their 30s at a high level? It seems so weird that out of everyone chubby little Marcel Dionne would be the true survivor, though maybe all those early summers had something to do with it...

Add Borje Salming to the list. Mark Howe who started in 1974 - Houston WHA played well into the 1990's.

 

[njdevils1982]

bure never kicked this **** out.

 

[Big Phil]

As far as Lafleur vs. Bure as a player there is no contest. Lafleur was the best player in the NHL for about 4-5 straight seasons. He was a notch above the rest of the NHL and to compare someone more modern in terms of dominance I would say Jagr was pretty close to him as far as "lapping" the rest of the NHL in his peak. The only difference was that Lafleur was put in the position to be part of a dynasty and was the best player for that great team.

Someone mentioned Lafleur was not a great leader. No, it isn't something I would particularly call his strong point. After Cournoyer retired in 1979 he wasn't given the captaincy. He was the best player in the NHL then on the best team but he wasn't the captain, rather odd, but telling.

But he was a better playmaker than Bure, and as great as a goal scorer he was probably just as good or better at passing. Bure wasn't. Bure never won the Hart. Lafleur won 2. Bure never won the Art Ross. Lafleur won 3.

Now as far as talking about who was more electrifying then you have a closer call. Both had blinding speed. Both could stickhandle. I would think that Bure had a better collection of moves in his arsenal and had faster hands. It didn't make him a better player than Lafleur but it made him at least equally as exciting

 

[Peter9]

If I remember correctly--and I think I do--Ken Dryden wrote in The Game that Lafleur's game was so dependent on speed that he would go into serious decline once he neared or reached 30. Now injury may have accelerated that decline, but I'm inclined to agree with Dryden.

There have been few, if any, sights in ice hockey as thrilling as Guy Lafleur carrying the puck down the ice at full tilt, his golden hair flying behind him. He alone was the best advertisement for the game. And if, like me, one was a Canadiens fan as well, then it was heaven. The Canadiens consistently drew far more fans on the road than any other team. The Forum in Inglewood would have lots of empty seats for many of the Los Angeles Kings' other games, but the Canadiens' visits were sell-outs. And Lafleur was the main reason.

 

[Big Phil]

If I remember correctly--and I think I do--Ken Dryden wrote in The Game that Lafleur's game was so dependent on speed that he would go into serious decline once he neared or reached 30. Now injury may have accelerated that decline, but I'm inclined to agree with Dryden.

Well I don't know that part of the book, but if that's true you have to remember tha Dryden wrote The Game back in 1983. Lafleur was 32 then and was clearly a shadow of his former self at that time, and yeah his injuries had a little bit to do with it but speed WAS his strong suit

 

[Peter9]

Well I don't know that part of the book, but if that's true you have to remember tha Dryden wrote The Game back in 1983. Lafleur was 32 then and was clearly a shadow of his former self at that time, and yeah his injuries had a little bit to do with it but speed WAS his strong suit

But Dryden was saying that during his, Dryden's, years with the Canadiens, he knew Lafeleur's game would not wear well past 30. Dryden was recalling in that instance how Dryden felt about things during his own career, which ended in 1979. I think Dryden has enough integrity not to have used hindsight in that.

 

[Big Phil]

But Dryden was saying that during his, Dryden's, years with the Canadiens, he knew Lafeleur's game would not wear well past 30. Dryden was recalling in that instance how Dryden felt about things during his own career, which ended in 1970. I think Dryden has enough integrity not to have used hindsight in that.

Yeah true enough. His career ended in 1979 though