Guy Boucher

[Sweatred]

I feel like this is white-washing the issue.

People complain that playing a top prospect such as Brown or Batherson <10 mins a night with scrubs is potentially hindering development, the solution is either put them in a role suited to their skill set or if they aren't ready for that role send them down.

You are suggesting people want opportunities gifted to the prospects, but that's a straw man. Nobody is asking for players to be gifted chances, though some may disagree on what it takes to earn a chance, people arguing Smith isn't evectively developing the youth just don't thing playing Brown with Sabourin is an effective way to develop an offensive prospect.

I also find it funny how the more things change the more they stay the same, Boucher when here was lambasted for not developing the kids and instead favouring playing vets (anyone remember not feeding steak to a baby?) but now all the sudden sudden Boucher was the guy forcing players into roles they weren't ready for? For the most part, any players forced into roles they weren't ready for would have been the result of insufficient org depth more than Boucher trying to fast track development, he did not give ice time away to youth easily by any means.

My Main point is to consider where players like White/Lajoie could be if they were cut and sent to the minors two years ago and forced to grind out +PPG type development paths at the AHL level. They both got Boucher’s blessing (ice time) and both were pushed into the league faster having accomplished less than our current prospect pool.

I felt the Names acquisition last year was a response to Bath, Brown, and Form showing they weren’t ready for the NHL in the fall. Maybe we didn’t have that financial flexibility two years ago but that is the type of move that could have been made instead of rushing Lajoie and White.

I’m not sure who made those calls and I assume it was a combined decision between coach/GM. If Boucher plays Lajoie 4 min a night that tells the GM what he needs to do.

 

[guyzeur]

His system was amazing until it wasn't. People just figured us out after that season and he did absolutely nothing to change that. But that 2017 team was very effective and the players were very bought in.

I don't think it's true. If it was we would have been eliminated in the 1st round instead of 1g short to the SCF.

 

[Micklebot]

My Main point is to consider where players like White/Lajoie could be if they were cut and sent to the minors two years ago and forced to grind out +PPG type development paths at the AHL level. They both got Boucher’s blessing (ice time) and both were pushed into the league faster having accomplished less than our current prospect pool.

I felt the Names acquisition last year was a response to Bath, Brown, and Form showing they weren’t ready for the NHL in the fall. Maybe we didn’t have that financial flexibility two years ago but that is the type of move that could have been made instead of rushing Lajoie and White.

I’m not sure who made those calls and I assume it was a combined decision between coach/GM. If Boucher plays Lajoie 4 min a night that tells the GM what he needs to do.

Well, with Lajoie, I think a better question would be where in his development would he be had he not gotten that sports hernia. His skating when he cracked the roster vs a month or so in, and now are all night and day. He probably should have been shut down much earlier in the season given his health/performance, but that's another issue.

As for White, like many prospects, we gave him the shot to play at the start of the season. The typical idea being give him a taste so he know what he needs to work on in Belleville, we did the same thing in the past with Brown, with Formenton, and many other prospects over the years. The difference is White clicked on the NHL roster during that taste so the kept him up longer, and he continued to be a contributor, not someone that needed to be sheltered.

What he did the next season is another matter, and complicated by his contract status, but suggesting that a player who put up 41 pts in his 22 year old season was being rushed and would have been better off in the AHL that year is a pretty strange claim and seems pretty revisionist, unless you have some posts you can point me to where you were pushing for us to send White to the minors back in the 2018-19 season.

 

[Sweatred]

Well, with Lajoie, I think a better question would be where in his development would he be had he not gotten that sports hernia. His skating when he cracked the roster vs a month or so in, and now are all night and day. He probably should have been shut down much earlier in the season given his health/performance, but that's another issue.

As for White, like many prospects, we gave him the shot to play at the start of the season. The typical idea being give him a taste so he know what he needs to work on in Belleville, we did the same thing in the past with Brown, with Formenton, and many other prospects over the years. The difference is White clicked on the NHL roster during that taste so the kept him up longer, and he continued to be a contributor, not someone that needed to be sheltered.

What he did the next season is another matter, and complicated by his contract status, but suggesting that a player who put up 41 pts in his 22 year old season was being rushed and would have been better off in the AHL that year is a pretty strange claim and seems pretty revisionist, unless you have some posts you can point me to where you were pushing for us to send White to the minors back in the 2018-19 season.

My earliest quotes on this board start just before White was resigned. I strongly opposed the $28.5 and thought a bridge in the $1.6-1.8 was appropriate. Of course I was scalded for that while most compared his 40 pts to “good players” who get 40 pts. Along the way I’ve proposed sending him down several times while he was eligible. He was younger in the NHL than Brown in the AHL.


Lajoie will always have the injury to hide behind but there is no way he was ready to step into the NHL so early. Fans saw the early scoring which overwhelms the defensive mistakes. I’ve always assumed MD’s zone entry comments were largely posited at Lajoie and Jaros.

 

[Micklebot]

My earliest quotes on this board start just before White was resigned. I strongly opposed the $28.5 and thought a bridge in the $1.6-1.8 was appropriate. Of course I was scalded for that while most compared his 40 pts to “good players” who get 40 pts. Along the way I’ve proposed sending him down several times while he was eligible. He was younger in the NHL than Brown in the AHL.

Right, but I'm not talking about if you wanted to send him down when everybody agreed he was struggling last year, or whether you thought it was better to offer him a bridge deal instead of a more risky long term commitment, what I was saying is it's revisionist if you're now saying Boucher forced him into the lineup and we should have kept him in the AHL back in the 2018-19 season if you had no issues with him in the lineup at that time.

In terms of what you actually thought of White back in 2018-19, I was able to find this from Feb 19 in the top 25 under 25 thread,

If the question is asking for top 25 current ability/development (not potential) it feels like ...

1. Chabot
2. White
3. Tkachuk
4. Wolanin/Lajoie/Jaros
5. Brannstrom/Batherson
6. Formenton/Balcers.

...

Doesn't really scream send him down or that he was pushed into the league given the season Tkachuk was also having.

All I'm saying it's hard to argue he was rushed without the benefit of hindsight. There was next to nobody complaining about his play or that he was rushed prior to trading off all the players that insulated our kids. If we're going to criticize Boucher, there are lots of areas to do so, I just don't think criticizing him for rushing prospects is well supported by the facts regardless of how White has turned out so far.

 

[Sweatred]

Right, but I'm not talking about if you wanted to send him down when everybody agreed he was struggling last year, or whether you thought it was better to offer him a bridge deal instead of a more risky long term commitment, what I was saying is it's revisionist if you're now saying Boucher forced him into the lineup and we should have kept him in the AHL back in the 2018-19 season if you had no issues with him in the lineup at that time.

In terms of what you actually thought of White back in 2018-19, I was able to find this from Feb 19 in the top 25 under 25 thread,



Doesn't really scream send him down or that he was pushed into the league given the season Tkachuk was also having.

All I'm saying it's hard to argue he was rushed without the benefit of hindsight. There was next to nobody complaining about his play or that he was rushed prior to trading off all the players that insulated our
kids. If we're going to criticize Boucher, there are lots of areas to do so, I just don't think criticizing him for rushing prospects is well supported by the facts regardless of how White has turned out so far.

That doesn’t mean much. I was shocked Brady started in the NHL too.

I’m not a professional NHL coach or GM. I absolutely think we can look back in a few years to judge the decisions they make. We are using history to judge the EK deal, it will probably swing the MS deal, and we will use it for picks like Pinto.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that mistakes were made. How else do you learn from them. If anything I think it’s blatantly obvious that PD recognizes those mistakes because the Sens are making these prospects run through walls to get into the league.

I don’t get all the “protectionism” for White. Everybody wants to lawnmower or helicopter parent his path. I’m critical of him but the degreased or push back and excuses are insanely let high. The kid is 1000x better off then Chaplik, Brown, Batherson who are fighting for $$$.

I like White and want him to do well. I bought my kid his jersey. I could say most of what I’ve said about other prospects like Chaplik or even Brown and nobody really blinks an eye. Everybody gets defensive about White ... there is a saviour effect or he represented our future for a few years when things were bleak. I don’t really get it.

 

[Micklebot]

That doesn’t mean much. I was shocked Brady started in the NHL too.

It's from late February, you can be shocked Brady started in the NHL but after watching 5 months of him playing at a high level it's ok to evolve your opinion of him as you see more. If you were still questioning whether Brady belonged in the NHL by that point I really don't know what to say...

I’m not a professional NHL coach or GM. I absolutely think we can look back in a few years to judge the decisions they make. We are using history to judge the EK deal, it will probably swing the MS deal, and we will use it for picks like Pinto.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging that mistakes were made. How else do you learn from them. If anything I think it’s blatantly obvious that PD recognizes those mistakes because the Sens are making these prospects run through walls to get into the league.

I don’t get all the “protectionism” for White. Everybody wants to lawnmower or helicopter parent his path. I’m critical of him but the degreased or push back and excuses are insanely let high.

I like White and want him to do well. I could say most of what I’ve said about other prospects like Chaplik or even Brown and nobody really blinks an eye.

It's not protectionism, nor is anybody lawnmower or helicoptering his path. All I'm saying is he was playing well enough to earn his mins in 2018-19, that's backed up by his raw stats and the underlying numbers, the Coaches liked his play, as did the GM which resulted in what turned out to be an overly generous contract. In 2019-20, you could make a case he was not playing well (certainly wasn't earning his contract).

Looking back at decisions made by Boucher to play White, idk, I don't see a real issue here and I certainly didn't see anyone complaining at the time. There's no guarantee he learns more playing in the AHL than he did under the mentorship of Stone, he wasn't overwhelmed. You can certainly question the contract he got, time will tell but so far the marks are not great, but players have set backs and bounce backs so there is still time.

 

[Sweatred]

Hey - I respectfully disagree but that’s ok. More importantly what is the best path forward for him.

1. right back to 1C
2. Face some adversity on the 4th line
3. A blend
4. Some 2-3 RW time
4. Learn to be a 3C type player

Of all of our “prospects” I feel he has the weakest development plan. It’s feels like it’s - gets little stronger and get back out there.

 

[Micklebot]

Hey - I respectfully disagree but that’s ok. More importantly what is the best path forward for him.

1. right back to 1C
2. Face some adversity on the 4th line
3. A blend
4. Some 2-3 RW time
4. Learn to be a 3C type player

Of all of our “prospects” I feel he has the weakest development plan. It’s feels like it’s - gets little stronger and get back out there.

Step one is to re-evaluate where he is at camp. Until we do that there is no right answer. If he is the best center at camp we should start him as a top 6 center at camp.

Im an advocate of setting up 3 scoring lines and a shutdown line with relatively evenly distributed ice time so if he's one of out top4 centers at camp he can find a role and develop as a center. If we have 4 better centers, or he shows promise as a top 6 winger but not a top 6 center we can try him on the wing

Until we know more about how he progressed with offseason training and who else is on the roster via draft trades or signings there is no way to know for sure where he fits in.

If i had to guess id say 3rd scoring line or wing with the caveat that the 4th line is really a 3b that is more of a shutdown grind line so it may get more icetime but nothing is writen in pen.

 

[Sweatred]

Step one is to re-evaluate where he is at camp. Until we do that there is no right answer. If he is the best center at camp we should start him as a top 6 center at camp.

Im an advocate of setting up 3 scoring lines and a shutdown line with relatively evenly distributed ice time so if he's one of out top4 centers at camp he can find a role and develop as a center. If we have 4 better centers, or he shows promise as a top 6 winger but not a top 6 center we can try him on the wing

Until we know more about how he progressed with offseason training and who else is on the roster via draft trades or signings there is no way to know for sure where he fits in.

If i had to guess id say 3rd scoring line or wing with the caveat that the 4th line is really a 3b that is more of a shutdown grind line so it may get more icetime but nothing is writen in pen.

The only thing I worry about the “3 even line” approach is it may not concentrate enough scoring on any line to generate offence or insulate rookies.

As things stand Brady will probably get 20+ and who knows what Duc gets. If Norris, Brown, and evening White are going to have any success at C they need someone who can convert and make plays. If Batherson plays well and Laf takes off it makes things easier. But who knows.

 

[Micklebot]

The only thing I worry about the “3 even line” approach is it may not concentrate enough scoring on any line to generate offence or insulate rookies.

As things stand Brady will probably get 20+ and who knows what Duc gets. If Norris, Brown, and evening White are going to have any success at C they need someone who can convert and make plays. If Batherson plays well and Laf takes off it makes things easier. But who knows.

, we have depth but not a lot of elite players. 3 lines even vs 1 stacked may very well be the same lines depending on who we draft and how guys like Brown Norris and Batherson do.

 

[Flamingo]

He'll come back as a head coach when he's ready.

 

[aragorn]

Boucher was a terrible coach & belonged in junior not the NHL.

 

[SensHulk]

Boucher was a terrible coach & belonged in junior not the NHL.

that’s a pretty harsh criticism of someone who has taken a team twice to Game 7 of the conference finals in his first year, even if things fell apart afterwards. He obviously did something right, twice.

cue the broken clock argument...

 

[Crosside]

Boucher said have received offer to come back in the nhl. He would like to return in a assistant gm. Do you think he will be a good fit with Dorion

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

 

[Nac Mac Feegle]

I agree with you. I commonly hear people complain that DJ isn’t playing the kids and possibly threatening their development. In reality he is setting the competition bar high for these kids forcing them to develop into valuable NHL players. We’ve seen other coaches (Boucher) force players into the lineup when they weren’t ready which stalled their development.

It drives me nuts each time they send Brown or whoever down but they will be better players for it. He is the right guy now.

This is insane.

Boucher overplayed the kids? Not in this universe.

 

[Sweatred]

This is insane.

Boucher overplayed the kids? Not in this universe.

It’s pretty clear what DJ thought of White, Jaros, and Lajoie’s game. I’d say it was a complete 180 from Boucher’s view. Clearly the two coaches have different views on talent and the value of effort.

 

[swiftwin]

Big part of the team success and turn around that year. Got buy in and it worked.
Smart hockey man. Very stubborn in his approach. Should be working in the NHL as an assistant x and o's guy.

Agreed. I feel like we already knew that going in, and that's why we also brought on Crawford as a co-coach.