Management Guerin under investigation

[2Pair]

I'm not dismissing it personally. I'm evaluating the evidence at hand(which is largely from the Skaldes lawsuit).

Everyone should get their due process. I don't think corporations are the right place to handle that due process, beyond doing what's right to create and maintain a safe work environment. Allegation was made, Skalde met with legal, and Donetelli resigned.

Nothing I've seen how that resignation happened has explained how that happened (option to resign or face investigation or resigning so he is no longer an employee that has to cooperate in an investigation).

There are no allegations from the Skaldes they wanted to go to the police and were rebuffed.

At that point, based on all the information I don't think it's the Pens job to try him in the court of public opinion.

And the current "court of public opinion" disagrees with that. Doing the bare minimum just to cover your own ass is no longer an acceptable response to something like this. Whether or not people deserve to lose their careers over something like this is certainly up for debate, but I can't agree with anyone saying that "Guerin/Pittsburgh did nothing wrong"

I asked this question before- How would you feel right now if Clark Donatelli was the coach of your daughter's high school hockey team?

 

[ThatGuy22]

And the current "court of public opinion" disagrees with that. Doing the bare minimum just to cover your own ass is no longer an acceptable response to something like this. Whether or not people deserve to lose their careers over something like this is certainly up for debate, but I can't agree with anyone saying that "Guerin/Pittsburgh did nothing wrong"

I asked this question before- How would you feel right now if Clark Donatelli was the coach of your daughter's high school hockey team?

It's a loaded question given there are no pedo allegations, but I'll answer it if you answer one for me..

Knowing what we now know is alleged, I obviously wouldn't be comfortable with it and would probably pull my daughter from the program.

That doesn't mean I want non government corporations the arbitrators of due process. I would much preferred the Skaldes make a criminal complaint.

Now your question.

Do you think the Skaldes would have filed this lawsuit had Jarrod still been in the Pens employee? Or to put another way,, were they happy with result of their complaint until Jarrod got laid off for Covid or alleged retaliation.

 

[2Pair]

It's a loaded question, but I'll answer it if you answer one for me..

Knowing what we now know is alleged, I obviously wouldn't be comfortable with it.

That doesn't mean I want non government corporations the arbitrators of due process. I would much preferred the Skaldes make a criminal complaint.

Now your question.

Do you think the Skaldes would have filed this lawsuit had Jarrod still been in the Pens employee? Or to put another way,, were they happy with result of their complaint until Jarrod got laid off for Covid or alleged retaliation.

No I don't think they sue if Skalde is still employed by Pittsburgh. But that should be expected if you ask them to help the team out by keeping quiet. You don't then get to fire Skalde, even if you have cause.

 

[ThatGuy22]

No I don't think they sue if Skalde is still employed by Pittsburgh. But that should be expected if you ask them to help the team out by keeping quiet. You don't then get to fire Skalde, even if you have cause.

Agreed, mostly.

Beyond the unspecified allegations of their being prior complaints that the Pens failed to act on or "they should have known", really the only other ace in the hole is if the Pens urged them not to go to the authorities.

Here is where speculation comes in, which I try not to do, but duck it. Skalde met with Pens lawyers. Any lawyer worth his salt in this situation is going to gage whether or not they want to go criminal.

But their is no mention of the possibility of criminal proceedings in the lawsuits thus far. So either the lawyer did and Skalde wanted to keep it private or he didn't and the Pens are going to end up paying for having a poor lawyer before following S.O.P.

 

[GuerinUp]

that is not victim blaming... that is pointing out there is no burden of proof that guerin did anything wrong.

just because someone disagrees with your stance on a lawsuit, and knows how law works, doesnt mean they are blaming the victim.

That's exactly what's being called out. This isn't a legal case. Guerin isn't being charged with a crime. Guerin and Pittsburgh are being accused of putting themselves and their financial well being before a sexual assault victim.

People who dismiss something like this by saying " that's just SOP" is exactly what's wrong with this situation. It's also how teenagers in Houghton Michigan end up being sexually assaulted.

you dont find it even a little bit odd that the skaldes were fine with the way the penguins handled this, until jarrod lost his job due to covid?

looks like a money grab to me.

 

[2Pair]

you dont find it even a little bit odd that the skaldes were fine with the way the penguins handled this, until jarrod lost his job due to covid?

looks like a money grab to me.

The Skalde's motives have nothing to do with the fact that Pittsburgh failed to do the right thing.

 

[MuckOG]

The Skalde's motives have nothing to do with the fact that Pittsburgh failed to do the right thing.

What would've been the right thing for them to do? File a police report on behalf of the Skaldes?

I asked this question before- How would you feel right now if Clark Donatelli was the coach of your daughter's high school hockey team?

If it was my daughter, I would be down at the police station filing a criminal complaint against Donatelli.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

What would've been the right thing for them to do? File a police report on behalf of the Skaldes?

I think the question is whether the Penguins had the obligation to announce to everybody why the coach was resigning. Not announcing can be construed as either "standard operating procedure" or a "cover up", depending on which way you want to lean.

 

[2Pair]

What would've been the right thing for them to do? File a police report on behalf of the Skaldes?

Announced that Donatelli was being investigated for an alleged sexual assault, but since he resigned, and the victim didn't wish to press charges, there was nothing further they could do

 

[GuerinUp]

Announced that Donatelli was being investigated for an alleged sexual assault, but since he resigned, and the victim didn't wish to press charges, there was nothing further they could do

was he though? or did they just bring it up to him and he resigned?

 

[MuckOG]

I think the question is whether the Penguins had the obligation to announce to everybody why the coach was resigning. Not announcing can be construed as either "standard operating procedure" or a "cover up", depending on which way you want to lean.

In a perfect world without lawyers and litigation, I agree that announcing to everyone why the coach was resigning would be preferable.

 

[57special]

In a perfect world without lawyers and litigation, I agree that announcing to everyone why the coach was resigning would be preferable.

But since we don't live in such a world, employers will say as little as possible, so they don't get sued by either party.

Guy I know got his leer on at work...nothing more than that, but is the king of the suggestive comment. One women took offense, reported him, and he was fired by a trigger happy, HR person.

He set a lawyer on them, got 3 years worth of pay, and some pretty firm legal assurances that not a word of "cause" would ever be uttered, or they would be back in court.

Their is an art, or at least method, to firing people. Competent managers know this. It is not to go in with guns blazing, and doing "tell alls" to the public.

 

[GuerinUp]

ya, problem with going public with it from a company stand point is it subjects you to defamation cases

 

[2Pair]

was he though? or did they just bring it up to him and he resigned?

Who cares? If Donatelli isn't willing to agree with that kind of statement, then you need to do the right thing and get the police involved to figure out what actually happened.

 

[GuerinUp]

Who cares? If Donatelli isn't willing to agree with that kind of statement, then you need to do the right thing and get the police involved to figure out what actually happened.

thats the skaldes responsibility, not the penguins as it happened outside of work hours, and work premises.

 

[2Pair]

I think the question is whether the Penguins had the obligation to announce to everybody why the coach was resigning. Not announcing can be construed as either "standard operating procedure" or a "cover up", depending on which way you want to lean.

Everyone knows why the Penguins chose to try to cover this up. The majority of people would probably do the same if they were in the same circumstance. But, Everyone also knows that if you go that route and it gets out, there's a price that will need to be paid. They don't get to pretend like they didn't know keeping a sexual assault under wraps is the wrong thing to do.

thats the skaldes responsibility, not the penguins as it happened outside of work hours, and work premises.

Wrong on all levels

 

[Goose312]

Wrong on all levels

They are actually absolute right. You can't press charges on someone else's behalf to start. The most the Penguins could do is report what they were told. Doing so would make them legally liable both to Donatelli for unsubstantiated claims, but also the Skaldes if they decide they didn't want the Penguins to open a police report which they clearly didn't. The employer and employee relationship very specifically applies to company property, company time, and company operations.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Everyone knows why the Penguins chose to try to cover this up. The majority of people would probably do the same if they were in the same circumstance. But, Everyone also knows that if you go that route and it gets out, there's a price that will need to be paid. They don't get to pretend like they didn't know keeping a sexual assault under wraps is the wrong thing to do.

Sexual assault allegations, technically, unless you're in the camp believe that his resignation is some sort of corroboration/admission, which I think is still a bit of a grey area.

 

[AKL]

Sexual assault allegations, technically, unless you're in the camp believe that his resignation is some sort of corroboration/admission, which I think is still a bit of a grey area.

He appears to be in the camp that's already convicted Donatelli, Guerin and the rest of the Penguins for sexual assault and sentenced them to prison time.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

He appears to be in the camp that's already convicted Donatelli, Guerin and the rest of the Penguins for sexual assault and sentenced them to prison time.

Yeah, I'm just iffy on the whole "airing it out to the world" side of things. It seems like the right thing to do in a lot of cases when dealing with scumbags, but there's a whole legal liability side of things too that I have zero experience with so it's hard to come down too hard on it without knowing.

It's probably Pittsburgh's obligation to tell a subsequent potential employer the reason for his resignation, if asked during the hiring process, but even that can probably lead to lawsuit by Donatelli, so I don't know.

 

[AKL]

Yeah, I'm just iffy on the whole "airing it out to the world" side of things. It seems like the right thing to do in a lot of cases when dealing with scumbags, but there's a whole legal liability side of things too that I have zero experience with so it's hard to come down too hard on it without knowing.

It's probably Pittsburgh's obligation to tell a subsequent potential employer the reason for his resignation, if asked during the hiring process, but even that can probably lead to lawsuit by Donatelli, so I don't know.

There are definitely legal liability considerations on both sides of that, which some people can struggle with if they think morality (read: their own moral values) should trump all else. A lot of companies won't divulge any details about a former employees departure, even if the split wasn't a negative one. They'll just confirm they worked there from date A to date B, and their job title.

 

[2Pair]

Sexual assault allegations, technically, unless you're in the camp believe that his resignation is some sort of corroboration/admission, which I think is still a bit of a grey area.

Have you seen anyone dispute the fact that the assault happened? Pittsburgh isn't shy to talk about how quickly they removed Donatelli from the organization once they were aware.

 

[Dr Jan Itor]

Have you seen anyone dispute the fact that the assault happened? Pittsburgh isn't shy to talk about how quickly they removed Donatelli from the organization once they were aware.

I thought he removed himself?

 

[2Pair]

I thought he removed himself?

Ok.

Option A- Donatelli either admitted doing it or Pittsburgh had enough evidence to convince him that resigning was in his best interest. Pittsburgh then decided that they had done enough and the only thing further would be to cover it up.

Option B- Pittsburgh had no idea what happened but decided that Donatelli resigning would be enough and there would be no need for any further investigation into an alleged SEXUAL ASSAULT.


Does it make much difference which story you choose to believe?

 

[AKL]

Ok.

Option A- Donatelli either admitted doing it or Pittsburgh had enough evidence to convince him that resigning was in his best interest. Pittsburgh then decided that they had done enough and the only thing further would be to cover it up.

Option B- Pittsburgh had no idea what happened but decided that Donatelli resigning would be enough and there would be no need for any further investigation into an alleged SEXUAL ASSAULT.


Does it make much difference which story you choose to believe?

Pittsburgh had no obligation to investigate any further. It didn't happen on their time or in their facilities, and they're not the police.