Gretzky and Lemieux (mod: and now Orr) in the "new" NHL

[Stonefly]

Those who don't enjoy hypotheticals need not read further.
I got to thinking while watching the playoffs and in particular the Penguins with their 1-2-2 style, how would Gretzky and Lemieux fare in today's game.
I can't help but think we could see them put up 200 point seasons. Can you imagine how they would take advantage of the removal of the two line pass? That combined with the no touch style now enforced? I think you'd see some different strategies used by coaches to try and deal with them. It would be fun to see that's for sure.
Thoughts on how these guys would do today?

Click to read more...

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

i think they'd both be around 150 pts in their primes.

 

[RUSqueelin*]

i think they'd both be around 150 pts in their primes.

Lemieux already did that in 2000, old and coming off a 3 year lay off. He'd rip the league another one if he were in his prime today. And so would Gretzky.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Those who don't enjoy hypotheticals need not read further.
I got to thinking while watching the playoffs and in particular the Penguins with their 1-2-2 style, how would Gretzky and Lemieux fare in today's game.
I can't help but think we could see them put up 200 point seasons. Can you imagine how they would take advantage of the removal of the two line pass? That combined with the no touch style now enforced? I think you'd see some different strategies used by coaches to try and deal with them. It would be fun to see that's for sure.
Thoughts on how these guys would do today?

When Gretzky played in Edmonton, he was playing the no touch style.

Mario came back old and rusty in an era where no one could score and he still lit it up like no one else.

 

[nik jr]

Those who don't enjoy hypotheticals need not read further.
I got to thinking while watching the playoffs and in particular the Penguins with their 1-2-2 style, how would Gretzky and Lemieux fare in today's game.
I can't help but think we could see them put up 200 point seasons. Can you imagine how they would take advantage of the removal of the two line pass? That combined with the no touch style now enforced? I think you'd see some different strategies used by coaches to try and deal with them. It would be fun to see that's for sure.
Thoughts on how these guys would do today?

imo, there is more hitting today than there was when gretzky and lemieux played.

there is much less holding and hooking, but i don't think i've ever seen as many hits.

despite the new rules, team defense is quite a lot better today than it was in the '80s.

i think they'd both be around 150 pts in their primes.

i think they'd be closer to 180.

 

[ezhik drochit]

Gretzky's last 5 seasons in the defensive era NHL

GP G A P
1995-96 Los Angeles Kings NHL 62 15 66 81
1995-96 St. Louis Blues NHL 18 8 13 21 2
1996-97 New York Rangers NHL 82 25 72 97
1997-98 New York Rangers NHL 82 23 67 90
1998-99 New York Rangers NHL 70 9 53 62

He was old and playing for teams that were not considered elite, and still put up good numbers.
so if you put him in his prime in todays NHL, he would be hard to stop.

Mario's stats at the end of his career in the defensive era.

season Team GP G A P
2005-2006 Penguins 26 7 15 22
2003-2004 Penguins 10 1 8 9
2002-2003 Penguins 67 28 63 91
2001-2002 Penguins 24 6 25 31
2000-2001 Penguins 43 35 41 76
1996-1997 Penguins 76 50 72 122
1995-1996 Penguins 70 69 92 161
1993-1994 Penguins 22 17 20 37

Once again pretty impressive stat considering he never even came close to playing a fall season and battled cancer among other ailments in those years. In his prime in todays NHL he would dominate.

one thing everyone should consider is how many power-play opportunities in todays NHL they would have. Also they would be in more 4 on 4 situations in which both were known to be very dangerous. Gretzky being a lady bing winner many times wouldnt have to adjust his play.

 

[Cawz]

Can you imagine how they would take advantage of the removal of the two line pass?

Thats an interesting thought. They played in an era when that stupid rule stifled breakouts, and they still obliterated the records.

 

[Dark Shadows]

imo, there is more hitting today than there was when gretzky and lemieux played.

there is much less holding and hooking, but i don't think i've ever seen as many hits.

despite the new rules, team defense is quite a lot better today than it was in the '80s.



i think they'd be closer to 180.

Seconded. I feel about the same. 200 points is no longer possible, but 170 or so might be

When Gretzky played in Edmonton, he was playing the no touch style.

Mario came back old and rusty in an era where no one could score and he still lit it up like no one else.

Gretzky also was scoring 90-97 points in the dead puck era in his late 30's with worse out of their prime linemates than Jagr.

 

[reckoning]

Lemieux would be money in the bank if he was in shootouts.

 

[canucks4ever]

150 points maximum, guys like Mike Bossy would get between 90-120 points.

 

[Dark Shadows]

150 points maximum, guys like Mike Bossy would get between 90-120 points.

I disagree, if only because of the clip Lemieux was scoring at at age 36 on his return year, and how much Gretzky was scoring for so long with a bad back and over the hill linemates past their prime in new york.

Jagr had 44 points in 38 games from October through December in 2001. He finished with 77 points in his final 43 games after Mario came back.

Mario of course, needed nobody to put up numbers like that, and he scored on pace for 145 points as a 36 year old during the height of the dead puck era. I think in his prime years of age 21-29, with the extra power plays and diminished of hooking/holding today, Lemieux could still score 160-170

 

[canucks4ever]

I disagree, if only because of the clip Lemieux was scoring at at age 36 on his return year, and how much Gretzky was scoring for so long with a bad back and over the hill linemates past their prime in new york.

Jagr had 44 points in 38 games from October through December in 2001. He finished with 77 points in his final 43 games after Mario came back.

Mario of course, needed nobody to put up numbers like that, and he scored on pace for 145 points as a 36 year old during the height of the dead puck era. I think in his prime years of age 21-29, with the extra power plays and diminished of hooking/holding today, Lemieux could still score 160-170

So by that theory, he outscored Lemieux by 1 point, when they were together.

2001 was not really the "height" of the dead puck era cuz for some reason scoring went up bigtime that year. You had more than 20 guys score 80 points. In 2002 only 4 people did it, in 2000 8 people did it.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

You put them on good offensive teams, say the Flyers in place of Briere or Montreal in place of Koivu, and I think they put up numbers between 165 - 180 points.

 

[John Flyers Fan]

Lemieux would be money in the bank if he was in shootouts.

Quoted for the truth.

 

[cupface52]

160-170 points tops.

The top offensive players have slightly improved since the 80's... however the top defensemen, the systems and knowledge of playing defense has vastly improved since then.

 

[canucks4ever]

I honestly think the trap system will just prevent anybody from scoring more than 150 points. I really truly believe it's going to be a long time until someone even scores 135 points. I mean the closest in the last 11 years has been Jagr when he scored 127 points.

 

[WingsFan95]

Lemieux easily scored 80+.

This season the league has opened up, if Ovechkin scored 65, Lemieux at 23 would score 85+

 

[Dark Shadows]

So by that theory, he outscored Lemieux by 1 point, when they were together.

2001 was not really the "height" of the dead puck era cuz for some reason scoring went up bigtime that year. You had more than 20 guys score 80 points. In 2002 only 4 people did it, in 2000 8 people did it.

Goals per game. The top scorers indeed did score more than usual that year, but the league did not.

86-87 6165/840 7.33
87-88 6237/840 7.43
88-89 6286/840 7.48
89-90 6189/840 7.36
90-91 5805/840 6.91
91-92 6123/880 6.96
92-93 7311/1008 7.25
93-94 7081/1092 6.48
94-95 3727/624 5.97
95-96 6701/1066 6.29
96-97 6216/1066 5.83
97-98 5624/1066 5.27
98-99 5830/1107 5.26
99-00 6306/1148 5.49
00-01 6780/1230 5.51
01-02 6442/1230 5.23
02-03 6527/1230 5.31
03-04 6318/1230 5.14
05-06 7588/1230 6.17

Lemieux was the reason Jagr started scoring again. He was on pace for 96 points until Mario came and put him back on track, and helped him steal another Art Ross(It was Sakic's)

 

[Lainlight]

mario like 120, wayne around 110 or so

 

[ziggo66]

mario like 120, wayne around 110 or so

Unbelievable


As stated already, Mario was on pace for 145 points after playing golf for three and half years in 00-01.
Ovechkin, Crosby etc. would never win a single Richard or Art Ross trophy in their whole career if Mario was 21 today.

 

[ozzie]

This is tricky, but it obviously would depend what team they played on. Reason being, I don't think Lemieux or Gretzky would be able to float as much as they did. Lemieux floated alot more then Gretzky, but they both did it. They were allowed to get away with it.

In today's game, I don't think they would be allowed to get away with it. Anyhow this is where the arguements about who is better becomes really interesting.

Lemieux came back, healthy, older, wiser and had to adjust his game. That season he actually played some defense, not much but he didn't float nearly as much. He was on pace for 145 points. So 150 point (60+g, 80+a) range is probably reasonable.

I think between the 2, Gretzky struggles more. Gretzky in todays game scores less goals then he did in the 80's, probably 35-45 range, I am guessing 75-90 assists yearly, putting him in the 125-135 point range. I think the Gretzky we saw in LA is probably closer to what he would be now.

But no matter, I believe Lemieux would be regarded as the better player without question, Lemieux's size and skill translates better. Coming back in 2000/01 certainly showed what the man could do. Definately the better goal scorer. I think Gretzky would be a more successful version of Jumbo Joe, with playoff success.

 

[FissionFire]

They score at a good clip, but not nearly as much as many would think. The "new NHL" style is close to the 80s era but nowhere near as open. Goalies now are simply a huge step better (and bigger) than goalies when these guys were lighting it up. Every single team has a defensive system they employ with the 1 goal lead. Hooking and holds would be called but these guys would be brutalized even more by the slashes, headshots, and other assorted thuggery employed by many "pests" in the current game because these aren't called with nearly the frequency they should be. Most importantly, both players would have to sacrifice a decent chunk of offense to make the team successful today since they can't rely on simply outscoring teams every night. Both players were adequate defensively but they'd have backcheck harder and expend tons more energy just to be on a playoff team. Add in the salary cap basically making it impossible for them to assemble any dynasty talents and that just muddies things even more.

Better goalies, better systems, required to play more defense to succeed, salary cap = probably 150 points upside. No even a Gretzky or Lemieux team is going to score enough goals for them to get much more unless they are part of 50% of more of their teams goals.

During Gretzky's 5-year span of dominance the Oilers scored 417, 424, 446, 401, and 426 goals.

During Lemieux's 2 Cup runs his team scored 342 and 343 goals. During his best 4 seasons statistically his team scored 347, 319, 362, and 367 goals.

Here's the top scoring teams since the lockout:
2005-06: 312 (Ottawa Senators)
2006-07: 298 (Buffalo Sabres)
2007-08: 258 (Ottawa Senators)

Those two are amazing players, but in a capped world they aren't going to join a team and increase the total goals scored by 25-50% alone, especially since chances are they'd be replacing the top player on the team already because of the salary slot.

 

[MXD]

Well, I think Lemieux would be the best of both...

 

[Passchendaele]

Lemieux easily scored 80+.

This season the league has opened up, if Ovechkin scored 65, Lemieux at 23 would score 85+

What? This year? While the GPG avg went down for a 2nd straight season?

What you're saying is that Lemieux could score 85+ goals in today's NHL while he never did, playing in the '80s?

Lemieux isn't THAT much better than Ovechkin at goal-scoring.

 

[reckoning]

During Gretzky's 5-year span of dominance the Oilers scored 417, 424, 446, 401, and 426 goals.

During Lemieux's 2 Cup runs his team scored 342 and 343 goals. During his best 4 seasons statistically his team scored 347, 319, 362, and 367 goals.

Here's the top scoring teams since the lockout:
2005-06: 312 (Ottawa Senators)
2006-07: 298 (Buffalo Sabres)
2007-08: 258 (Ottawa Senators)

Those two are amazing players, but in a capped world they aren't going to join a team and increase the total goals scored by 25-50% alone, especially since chances are they'd be replacing the top player on the team already because of the salary slot.

Just to do a comparison, here's the totals from those three post-lockout teams if you remove all the goals their top point-getter figured in:

2005-06 Ottawa: 209
2006-07 Buffalo: 203
2007-08 Ottawa: 166
Average: 193

Now here's Edmonton's totals during Gretzky's 7 Art Ross years with them, minus all the goals Gretzky figured in:

1980-81 Edmonton: 164
1981-82 Edmonton: 205
1982-83 Edmonton: 228
1983-84 Edmonton: 241
1984-85 Edmonton: 193
1985-86 Edmonton: 211
1986-87 Edmonton: 189
Average: 204

And here's Pittsburgh's totals during Lemieux's 6 Art Ross years with them, minus all the goals Lemieux figured in:

1987-88 Pittsburgh: 151
1988-89 Pittsburgh: 148
1991-92 Pittsburgh: 212
1992-93 Pittsburgh: 207
1995-96 Pittsburgh: 201
1996-97 Pittsburgh: 163
Average: 180

Both are those are pretty much in line with the post-lockout teams.

Now if you did the same thing for most teams in the 80s or early 90s, the totals would be much higher than today's teams. But Lemieux and Gretzky were special players who played a huge role in why their teams scored so much, rather than benefitting because their teams scored so much.

Gretzky figured in at least 50% of Edmonton's goals 4 different seasons. Lemieux did it with Pittsburgh twice, and likely would've done it a few more times if not for games missed due to injury. Ovechkin, great as he is, hasn't done it.