Greatest Playmakers Of All-Time: #2

[GlitchMarner]

Who is the second greatest playmaker of all-time?


Apply your own criteria.


#1. Wayne Gretzky

Click to read more...

 

[Stamkos4life]

Its crazy that the greatest playmaker is arguably the best goal scorer as well.

I'd go with #4.

 

[Boreal01]

Orr just barely edges out Lemieux

 

[amnesiac]

Yeah Orr just ahead of Mario.... when you win the Hart and Art Ross as a Dman, let alone 8 Norrises in 9 seasons, I mean thats something we'll surely never see again.

Orr
Mario
Oates
Forsberg
Dionne/Jagr


add Sakic, Mikita, Bourque... Malkin aint far either

 

[Albatros]

Went for Mario although Adam Oates is close.

 

[SillyRabbit]

So many hipsters trying to vote Orr over Lemieux for playmaking lol.

It’s one thing to have Orr over Lemieux on the all-time list because he was a great defencemen while also being elite offensively but in no way was he better offensively (in this case, playmaking) than Lemieux.

 

[wetcoast]

Went for Mario although Adam Oates is close.

This is my first thought as well but Jumbo Joe might be a better “pure” playmaker but the criteria thing is weird as Jumbo Joe overall is nowhere near some of these other guys.

 

[Tony Stacks]

Add sakic borque and henrik sedin

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Lemieux very easily

 

[Individual 1]

Howe has 10 season top 3 in assists, he should probably be in the poll.

So many hipsters trying to vote Orr over Lemieux for playmaking lol.

It’s one thing to have Orr over Lemieux on the all-time list because he was a great defencemen while also being elite offensively but in no way was he better offensively (in this case, playmaking) than Lemieux.

Going back to the 1940 defensemen have lead the league in assists a total of 6 times, forwards are naturally in a better position to get a higher assist total. With centers having an even bigger advantage with offensive zone faceoffs. Coffey has two 2nd place finishes to Gretzky while being teammates, and Bourque loses to Gretzky once.

Top 5 assist ranking
Orr 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2
Lemieux 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 4

Both are 1st in assists per game 6 times

4 of the top 5 assist total for a defensemen in a season are Orr

Lemieux has 4 of the top 5 assists/game outside of Gretzky

 

[bobholly39]

Gretzky topped 100 assists in a season 9x. Only 2 players in history topped 100 outside of him, Lemieux (1x) and Orr (1x). Difference is - Lemieux paced for over 100 assists 6x in a season, but health/games missed prevented it.

I think he's clear #2, with Orr #3.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Too late to post this on the original, but this was, in my opinion, the perfect example of why Gretzky was #1.

He's killing a penalty, and he has the puck along the boards near center ice. He's facing the boards, with two opposing players on him.

He passed the puck between his legs, and hit Kurri in full flight, for a breakaway shorthanded goal.

When asked about it later, he said he say Kurri's reflection in the glass.

 

[Midnight Judges]

If you look at raw stats, the players from the mid 70s through the mid 90s are far superior to all others in terms of offense. Out of the top 10 assist leaders all-time, only two of them didn't play in that 20 year span (Thornton and Howe - actually Howe sorta did but largely not) and both of those guys needed a bazillion games to get there.

So basically everyone was inferior offensively for 60 years, then they were awesome for ~ 20, then they sucked again for 25 years.

It doesn't pass the smell test IMO. Some sort of adjustment is necessary.

 

[filinski77]

Lemieux very easily

Other than your blatant homerism, I don't see how it could be Lemieux "very easily".

	Orr	Lemieux
1st place assist finishes	5	3
1st place assist/gp finishes	6	6
Top-10 assist finishes	6	9
Top-10 assist/gp finishes	7	11
Total Assists	645	1033
Total GP	657	915

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I think there's a lot of analysis that can go into this:
1) Orr at his top-level was better. More 1st place finishes, with the same amount of 1st place assist/gp finishes (and actual > /gp always). Point for Orr.
2) Lemieux did have more top-10 finishes, but that's also largely due to a longer career. But that still plays into determining who was "greater", so point for Lemieux
3) Leading the league in assists while being a defenseman is inherently harder due to the nature of the position, and where you're going to get your touches. Whereas the nature of a center is that you'll get more touches, and in hand more assists. So given the position they played, Orr's dominance is more impressive to me than Lemieux's dominance.

Overall I would give the edge to Lemieux, largely due to how short Orr's career was. If Orr had put up 800-900 assists (so that the raw total wasn't as large [side-note, era adjusting wouldn't change this much either]), then I would give Orr the edge.

Either way, it's not "very easily" at all.

 

[BigBadBruins7708]

Other than your blatant homerism, I don't see how it could be Lemieux "very easily".

	Orr	Lemieux
1st place assist finishes	5	3
1st place assist/gp finishes	6	6
Top-10 assist finishes	6	9
Top-10 assist/gp finishes	7	11
Total Assists	645	1033
Total GP	657	915

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I think there's a lot of analysis that can go into this:
1) Orr at his top-level was better. More 1st place finishes, with the same amount of 1st place assist/gp finishes (and actual > /gp always). Point for Orr.
2) Lemieux did have more top-10 finishes, but that's also largely due to a longer career. But that still plays into determining who was "greater", so point for Lemieux
3) Leading the league in assists while being a defenseman is inherently harder due to the nature of the position, and where you're going to get your touches. Whereas the nature of a center is that you'll get more touches, and in hand more assists. So given the position they played, Orr's dominance is more impressive to me than Lemieux's dominance.

Overall I would give the edge to Lemieux, largely due to how short Orr's career was. If Orr had put up 800-900 assists (so that the raw total wasn't as large [side-note, era adjusting wouldn't change this much either]), then I would give Orr the edge.

Either way, it's not "very easily" at all.

It tips in Orr's favor when you consider he only played 9 full seasons and 657 games

 

[Albatros]

Orr at his top-level was better. More 1st place finishes, with the same amount of 1st place assist/gp finishes (and actual > /gp always). Point for Orr.

I don't think that's decisive against significantly inferior competition.

 

[bobholly39]

Other than your blatant homerism, I don't see how it could be Lemieux "very easily".

	Orr	Lemieux
1st place assist finishes	5	3
1st place assist/gp finishes	6	6
Top-10 assist finishes	6	9
Top-10 assist/gp finishes	7	11
Total Assists	645	1033
Total GP	657	915

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I think there's a lot of analysis that can go into this:
1) Orr at his top-level was better. More 1st place finishes, with the same amount of 1st place assist/gp finishes (and actual > /gp always). Point for Orr.
2) Lemieux did have more top-10 finishes, but that's also largely due to a longer career. But that still plays into determining who was "greater", so point for Lemieux
3) Leading the league in assists while being a defenseman is inherently harder due to the nature of the position, and where you're going to get your touches. Whereas the nature of a center is that you'll get more touches, and in hand more assists. So given the position they played, Orr's dominance is more impressive to me than Lemieux's dominance.

Overall I would give the edge to Lemieux, largely due to how short Orr's career was. If Orr had put up 800-900 assists (so that the raw total wasn't as large [side-note, era adjusting wouldn't change this much either]), then I would give Orr the edge.

Either way, it's not "very easily" at all.

Ages 18 to 30.

Orr (his whole career) 645 assists in 657 games. 80 assists per 82 game season paced out
Lemieux - 809 assists in 669 games. 99 assists per 82 games paced out

Now - considering Lemieux was an even better goal-scorer (ie, half the time he would shoot rather then pass, which lowered his assist totals) and considering the fact this includes a lot of years where Lemieux was far from 100% (I know Orr wasn't 100% either his whole prime, but Lemieux's health issues in his prime were greater imo) - I think this is clear edge to Lemieux for a playmaker.

I'd have Orr #3 however

 

[filinski77]

Ages 18 to 30.

Orr (his whole career) 645 assists in 657 games. 80 assists per 82 game season paced out
Lemieux - 809 assists in 669 games. 99 assists per 82 games paced out

Now - considering Lemieux was an even better goal-scorer (ie, half the time he would shoot rather then pass, which lowered his assist totals) and considering the fact this includes a lot of years where Lemieux was far from 100% (I know Orr wasn't 100% either his whole prime, but Lemieux's health issues in his prime were greater imo) - I think this is clear edge to Lemieux for a playmaker.

I'd have Orr #3 however

I agree that Lemieux has the edge, my whole post was referencing that it is not "very easily" as vegito said (since that's essentially saying AINEC).

I also could be overrating how impressive I think it is that Orr was a D-man and was able to be #1 more than Lemieux was. Either way, like I said, Lemieux doing it for longer and having much better overall totals gives him the edge imo.

 

[TatteredTornNFrayed]

If you look at raw stats, the players from the mid 70s through the mid 90s are far superior to all others in terms of offense. Out of the top 10 assist leaders all-time, only two of them didn't play in that 20 year span (Thornton and Howe - actually Howe sorta did but largely not) and both of those guys needed a bazillion games to get there.

So basically everyone was inferior offensively for 60 years, then they were awesome for ~ 20, then they sucked again for 25 years.

It doesn't pass the smell test IMO. Some sort of adjustment is necessary.

The era adjusted numbers are out there, but it seems as though a lot of people aren't using them in their arguments here. I don't study the older game enough to consider myself fully qualified. But I agree that pure totals are not a fully fair comparison.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Other than your blatant homerism, I don't see how it could be Lemieux "very easily".

	Orr	Lemieux
1st place assist finishes	5	3
1st place assist/gp finishes	6	6
Top-10 assist finishes	6	9
Top-10 assist/gp finishes	7	11
Total Assists	645	1033
Total GP	657	915

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I think there's a lot of analysis that can go into this:
1) Orr at his top-level was better. More 1st place finishes, with the same amount of 1st place assist/gp finishes (and actual > /gp always). Point for Orr.
2) Lemieux did have more top-10 finishes, but that's also largely due to a longer career. But that still plays into determining who was "greater", so point for Lemieux
3) Leading the league in assists while being a defenseman is inherently harder due to the nature of the position, and where you're going to get your touches. Whereas the nature of a center is that you'll get more touches, and in hand more assists. So given the position they played, Orr's dominance is more impressive to me than Lemieux's dominance.

Overall I would give the edge to Lemieux, largely due to how short Orr's career was. If Orr had put up 800-900 assists (so that the raw total wasn't as large [side-note, era adjusting wouldn't change this much either]), then I would give Orr the edge.

Either way, it's not "very easily" at all.

Let's not forget lemieux finished 2nd to Gretzky in assists 3 times

 

[Maplebeasts]

Mario.