Greatest Forwards #29

[GFS]

Born 1960-83

1. Wayne Gretzky
2. Mario Lemieux
3. Jaromir Jagr
4. Mark Messier
5. Joe Sakic
6. Peter Forsberg
7. Steve Yzerman
8. Teemu Selanne
9. Jari Kurri
10. Eric Lindros
11. Sergei Fedorov
12. Brett Hull
13. Pavel Datsyuk
14. Pavel Bure
15. Joe Thornton
16. Ron Francis
17. Jarome Iginla
18. Martin St. Louis
19. Paul Kariya
20. Mats Sundin
21. Doug Gilmour
22. Adam Oates
23. Dale Hawerchuk
24. Mike Modano
25. Henrik Zetterberg
26. Henrik Sedin
27. Daniel Sedin
28. Luc Robitaille

Click to read more...

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

How the heck has Kovalchuk lasted this long?

He scored more goals than any other player between 2002 and 2013 (his 18 year old season until he left for the KHL). And he did this while playing on some terrible Atlanta teams and an offensively starved Devils team.

Goal scoring leaders 2002-2013
Kovalchuk 388
Ovechkin 371
Iginla 356
Heatley 334
Hossa 327
Nash 310
Marleau 307
Lecavalier 302
St Louis 302
Gaborik 288

I mean he scored a full 100 goals more than 10th place over that period, that is unbelievable.

If not for Ovechkin (i.e. the best goal scorer of all time), he would have been the undisputed best goal scorer of his generation, and it wouldn't have been close.

 

[OKR]

Kovalchuk being this low is incredible tbh, he was a top 20 NHL player at least his whole career

 

[BlueBaron]

Went with Cam Neely. He's an "HF generational" player. Never played the games but his per 60 numbers make him a top 10 all time.

 

[amnesiac]

Kovalchuk being this low is incredible tbh, he was a top 20 NHL player at least his whole career

I mean, theres no reason to say Shanahan was clearly worse. The guy played 1524GP, with 656G, 1354P, 2x 1st team AS, and much better playoff stats than Kovy.

 

[bobholly39]

I mean, theres no reason to say Shanahan was clearly worse. The guy played 1524GP, with 656G, 1354P, 2x 1st team AS, and much better playoff stats than Kovy.

Lafontaine beats them both on peak, handily. Mark Recchi is one of only 13 players with 1500+ career points.

Lots of good options here.

 

[OKR]

I mean, theres no reason to say Shanahan was clearly worse. The guy played 1524GP, with 656G, 1354P, 2x 1st team AS, and much better playoff stats than Kovy.

Regular season:
Kovalchuk: 866 points in 904 games, 0,96ppg,

Shanaban: 1345 points in 1524 games 0,84ppg

playoffs:
IK: 27 points in 32 games 0.84ppg

BS: 134 points in 184 games 0,73ppg

Also considering Kovalchuk played most of his career in weak Atlanta team his stats are way more impressive than Brendan Shanahans in loaded Detroit, and while Shanahan was the better defensive player he also took more penalties and wasn’t as productive as Kovy. Kovy also is 3 time All-Star, rocket winner, Olympics mvp, lead the league in playoff goals, multiple time wolrd championship all-star and mvp, and Has everything you can win in the KHL as well.

 

[MikeyMike01]

Regular season:
Kovalchuk: 866 points in 904 games, 0,96ppg,

Shanaban: 1345 points in 1524 games 0,84ppg

playoffs:
IK: 27 points in 32 games 0.84ppg

BS: 134 points in 184 games 0,73ppg

Also considering Kovalchuk played most of his career in weak Atlanta team his stats are way more impressive than Brendan Shanahans in loaded Detroit, and while Shanahan was the better defensive player he also took more penalties and wasn’t as productive as Kovy. Kovy also is 3 time All-Star, rocket winner, Olympics mvp, lead the league in playoff goals, multiple time wolrd championship all-star and mvp, and Has everything you can win in the KHL as well.

Shanahan’s stats are certainly more impressive. No contest.

 

[OKR]

Shanahan’s stats are certainly more impressive. No contest.

You could say his career is more impressive by no contest, but how are lesser stats more impressive?

 

[MikeyMike01]

You could say his career is more impressive by no contest, but how are lesser stats more impressive?

Having slightly lower PPG in twice the games is much more impressive.

If you want to build a case, what is Shanahan’s numbers through the same number of seasons?

 

[OKR]

Having slightly lower PPG in twice the games is much more impressive.

If you want to build a case, what is Shanahan’s numbers through the same number of seasons?

There isn’t twice as much games, and Kovalchuk played in a less scoring era and in a much weaker teams and still has better ppg production in both playoffs and regular season, and had he not been in KHL some of his prime years he would be even further ahead on that too.

 

[John Eichel da GOAT]

Slam dunk Shanahan for me. Im shocked he isn't higher.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Many of the arguments for Kovalchuk over Shanahan are poor.

You can't compare their per-game stats. Kovalchuk has played 88 games after age 29. Shanahan has played 736 (nearly half his career). Of course Shanahan's stats are worse; the vast majority of Kovalchuk's career consisted of his athletic peak, while Shanahan has spent half his career on the decline (though still a very effective player). Mind you, Kovalchuk is still ahead if you're just comparing their production through age 29 - but it's much closer than if you're looking at their entire careers. (To be fair - Kovalchuk spent most of his prime in a lower-scoring era than Shanahan, so that is a point in his favour).

Comparison of their per-game playoff numbers are also flawed. Kovalchuk has played all of 32 playoff games (none past age 28). From age 22 to 33 Shanahan scored 100 points in 117 playoff games (Kovalchuk's career average) - but maintained this over a much greater period of time, on three deep runs. Shanahan's overall numbers are weaker, but are we really going to penalize him for being a dependenable (though no longer star) forward through age 40?

I'm also not convinced that Kovalchuk was disadvantaged playing in Atlana (at least when it comes to scoring points). He received obscene amounts of powerplay ice time, far more than any other forward in the league. Had he played on a strong, balanced team, there's no way he would have got so much time on the powerplay. See this post for details - HHOF 2020 (Predictions Here)

 

[amnesiac]

You could say his career is more impressive by no contest, but how are lesser stats more impressive?

lesser stats? so according to you Lafontaine should be 6th on this last ahead of Yzerman and Jagr since he has a better PPG? or Palffy ahead of Francis, Selanne? GP mean something believe it or not.

Regular season:
Kovalchuk: 866 points in 904 games, 0,96ppg,

Shanaban: 1345 points in 1524 games 0,84ppg

playoffs:
IK: 27 points in 32 games 0.84ppg

BS: 134 points in 184 games 0,73ppg

Also considering Kovalchuk played most of his career in weak Atlanta team his stats are way more impressive than Brendan Shanahans in loaded Detroit, and while Shanahan was the better defensive player he also took more penalties and wasn’t as productive as Kovy. Kovy also is 3 time All-Star, rocket winner, Olympics mvp, lead the league in playoff goals, multiple time wolrd championship all-star and mvp, and Has everything you can win in the KHL as well.

you really think he wouldve maintained his PPG over 1500 GP? please.

And im sorry, but Shanny's resume is more impressive.....
HHOFer
3 Cups
2x 1st team AS, 1x 2nd team AS
8x All-star
one of few that is part of the "triple gold club"
the only player with 600+G/2000+PIMs (ie. physicality)
Second-most consecutive 20 goal seasons (19)
MUCH more physical, and better 2-way game
his peak years were from 92-97 between 3 different teams (STL, HAR, DET), and was still scoring close to a PPG during the DPE years (99-03)

Im not saying they arent close, but longevity has its worth. Kovy had only 1x 1st team all-star too, he wasnt as dominant as you think. Great goalscorer, sure, buts theres a lot more to hockey. TOo many what ifs with Kovy (what if he played on a better team, what if he didnt go to the KHL), whereas Shanny DID it.

 

[wetcoast]

How the heck has Kovalchuk lasted this long?

He scored more goals than any other player between 2002 and 2013 (his 18 year old season until he left for the KHL). And he did this while playing on some terrible Atlanta teams and an offensively starved Devils team.

Goal scoring leaders 2002-2013
Kovalchuk 388
Ovechkin 371
Iginla 356
Heatley 334
Hossa 327
Nash 310
Marleau 307
Lecavalier 302
St Louis 302
Gaborik 288

I mean he scored a full 100 goals more than 10th place over that period, that is unbelievable.

If not for Ovechkin (i.e. the best goal scorer of all time), he would have been the undisputed best goal scorer of his generation, and it wouldn't have been close.

Agreed and can't really see why Daniel sedin is ahead of him and maybe even Hank sedin as well.

I wonder if Kovo can sustain this resurgence and get into the HHOF?

Frankly I think he already has the resume to get in but I doubt voters would think so.

 

[wetcoast]

I mean, theres no reason to say Shanahan was clearly worse. The guy played 1524GP, with 656G, 1354P, 2x 1st team AS, and much better playoff stats than Kovy.

Seasons top 10 in goals

Kovo 1,2,3,4,6,6,7,8,
Shanny 5,6,6,9, 10

Take away duplicates it's

Kovo 1,2,3,4,7,8
Shanny 5,9,10

Also that just their NHL careers.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Im not saying they arent close, but longevity has its worth. Kovy had only 1x 1st team all-star too, he wasnt as dominant as you think. Great goalscorer, sure, buts theres a lot more to hockey. TOo many what ifs with Kovy (what if he played on a better team, what if he didnt go to the KHL), whereas Shanny DID it.

It's almost as if he was competing for that first team all star slot with another pretty good goal scoring left winger...

I watched both guys play, and Kovalchuk was world's better than Shanahan. Shanahan was much more of a complimentary player, whereas Kovalchuk was able to do much more on his own. Funny that you mention how there's more to hockey than scoring goals, but Shanahan was way more one dimensional than Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk could beat you every possible way, he could skate, make plays, carry the puck, and score from anywhere. He was also able to play the power game, and wasn't afraid to drop the gloves.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Many of the arguments for Kovalchuk over Shanahan are poor.

You can't compare their per-game stats. Kovalchuk has played 88 games after age 29. Shanahan has played 736 (nearly half his career). Of course Shanahan's stats are worse; the vast majority of Kovalchuk's career consisted of his athletic peak, while Shanahan has spent half his career on the decline (though still a very effective player). Mind you, Kovalchuk is still ahead if you're just comparing their production through age 29 - but it's much closer than if you're looking at their entire careers. (To be fair - Kovalchuk spent most of his prime in a lower-scoring era than Shanahan, so that is a point in his favour).

Comparison of their per-game playoff numbers are also flawed. Kovalchuk has played all of 32 playoff games (none past age 28). From age 22 to 33 Shanahan scored 100 points in 117 playoff games (Kovalchuk's career average) - but maintained this over a much greater period of time, on three deep runs. Shanahan's overall numbers are weaker, but are we really going to penalize him for being a dependenable (though no longer star) forward through age 40?

I'm also not convinced that Kovalchuk was disadvantaged playing in Atlana (at least when it comes to scoring points). He received obscene amounts of powerplay ice time, far more than any other forward in the league. Had he played on a strong, balanced team, there's no way he would have got so much time on the powerplay. See this post for details - HHOF 2020 (Predictions Here)

Nobody scored more goals than Ilya Kovalchuk during his first 11 seasons in the NHL, a full 100 goals ahead of 10th place.

Shanahan was t-10th in the league during his first 11 NHL seasons.

 

[wetcoast]

Nobody scored more goals than Ilya Kovalchuk during his first 11 seasons in the NHL, a full 100 goals ahead of 10th place.

Shanahan was t-10th in the league during his first 11 NHL seasons.

He is first in goals and 4th in points over his first 11 years in the NHL.

I wonder what the best first 10 years of a non HHOF player is in comparison?

Alexander Mogilny for example was 11th in goals and 21st in points in his first 11 years.

 

[amnesiac]

Seasons top 10 in goals

Kovo 1,2,3,4,6,6,7,8,
Shanny 5,6,6,9, 10

Take away duplicates it's

Kovo 1,2,3,4,7,8
Shanny 5,9,10

Also that just their NHL careers.

And? Noones debating whether kovys the better goalscorer.

You could do the same comparison with Bondra or Tkachuk. Surely you dont believe they were better than Shanny.

 

[amnesiac]

It's almost as if he was competing for that first team all star slot with another pretty good goal scoring left winger...

He was 2nd team once.... whats the excuse now?

I watched both guys play, and Kovalchuk was world's better than Shanahan. Shanahan was much more of a complimentary player, whereas Kovalchuk was able to do much more on his own. Funny that you mention how there's more to hockey than scoring goals, but Shanahan was way more one dimensional than Kovalchuk. Kovalchuk could beat you every possible way, he could skate, make plays, carry the puck, and score from anywhere. He was also able to play the power game, and wasn't afraid to drop the gloves.

Yeah that statement is blatantly false. Put up a poll if you like.

 

[wetcoast]

And? Noones debating whether kovys the better goalscorer.

You could do the same comparison with Bondra or Tkachuk. Surely you dont believe they were better than Shanny.

Kovy is a much better player than the 3 guys listed.

The 3 listed are on the same level for me, although Shanny has more staying power to be sure.

 

[amnesiac]

Kovy is a much better player than the 3 guys listed.

The 3 listed are on the same level for me, although Shanny has more staying power to be sure.

Really? Bondra and Shanny on the same level?

 

[wetcoast]

Really? Bondra and Shanny on the same level?

Bondra has 2 Richard trophies, he was a sniper.

Sure Bondra doesn't have the longevity or complete game of Shanny but they have pretty similar value to me in their peaks and primes.

Shanny had more staying power and going to the Red wings juggernaut really helped him age well IMO.

 

[amnesiac]

Bondra has 2 Richard trophies, he was a sniper.

Sure Bondra doesn't have the longevity or complete game of Shanny but they have pretty similar value to me in their peaks and primes.

Shanny had more staying power and going to the Red wings juggernaut really helped him age well IMO.

Quite the opposite... playing more games in the intense NHL playoffs with Detroit into your mid 30s doesnt prolong your career. Especially the way Shanny played.

Kovy has 1 Richard btw.... and wasmt that the year he was tied with Nash and Sid with 41?