Great players held back by mediocre teams or systems.

[Nordic*]

Looking at the absolute trainwreck that is Arizona, I wonder what OEL would be capable of on even a mid-ranged team in the NHL.

Same with Duchene & Tavares.

What do you think they could achieve in terms of personal stats and/or awards?

Other players who would benefit a lot from being traded?

Click to read more...

 

[Cor]

So is this just a "name the star players on bad teams" thread

 

[Aladyyn]

Good players held back by a system?

Sounds like half the Sabres roster

 

[Nordic*]

So is this just a "name the star players on bad teams" thread

Not really. Some star players still have good linemates on their mediocre teams - and perform good.

Eichel, Laine and Ehlers for instance.

 

[Coldplay619]

Karlsson.

Ovi from 2011-12 to 2013-14.

 

[Blainer114*]

Hall, eberle, rnh, yakupov etc oilers
Eichel sabres
Duchene, mackinnon avs
Huberdeau panthers
Tavares isles
Schenn leafs

 

[struckbyaparkedcar]

Good players held back by a system?

Sounds like half the Sabres roster

That's being generous to Disco.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Tavares
Eichel
Gaudreau
Mackinnon
Schneider
Horvat
Duchene

 

[pheasant]

Karlsson.

Ovi from 2011-12 to 2013-14.

I am not an expert, by any means. But from everything I see in Ottawa, the entire team and system seem to be tailor made to get the most and best out of Karlsson. I don`t think anything abut Ottawa is holding him back.

 

[JD1]

Tavares
Eichel
Gaudreau
Mackinnon
Schneider
Horvat
Duchene

Still flogging the Gaudreau horse eh Whiskey?

What say you on Johnny's point pace and + / - for the year?

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Still flogging the Gaudreau horse eh Whiskey?

What say you on Johnny's point pace and + / - for the year?

The whole team took 15-20 games to adjust to the new coach / system.

He's also riding an unsustainably low PDO and on ice sh%. And being stuck with Alex Chiasson for 90% of the season doesn't help, nor does breaking his finger.

Despite all that, he's still got 18 points in his last 21 games. But he's due for some serious upward regression.

 

[rumrokh]

There are also players who are not actually great, but because they're the best players on their bad teams, they're perceived to be better than they are for various reasons.

Not only do truly great players elevate those around them, people also like to imagine scenarios that never really work in reality. Crosby's Perfect Winger or Rick Nash's Perfect Center are memorable fantasies.
There are definitely situations where a good player fits better on a good team or with elite teammates (Justin Schultz is a good example right now). But if you find yourself thinking a player is great, but is being held back, there's a decent chance that player isn't actually great.

If you look at the performances of actually great players, they occasionally waver due to injuries or natural variation from year to year, but they rarely waver as they play with better or worse teams. Hossa is a good example of a great player who has been in a lot of situations. Ottawa was stacked, Atlanta was bad, he had all-time greats to play with in Pittsburgh. Detroit, Chicago, didn't matter, his performance and production didn't really change.

 

[tohaa]

Galchenyuk and Radulov

 

[Inkling]

Karlsson.

I don't think two Norris trophies and his scoring production points to him being 'held back'. 'Held back' in terms of winning a Stanley Cup maybe, at least for now, but I'm not sure this is what this thread is about.

Galchenyuk and Radulov

I wouldn't say the Habs are a mediocre team, but Galchenyuk is an interesting case. He has been the league for five years, he didn't play a single game in the AHL, and as of last year, the Habs still didn't know if he was a centre or a winger. Even this year, people were complaining about his faceoff stats when he has had limited experience being a centre in the NHL. The guy is a star, but he probably was held back by the Habs poor development of him and succeeded in spite of the team, because of his talent, rather than because of it.

 

[DL44]

Kopitar.
Will have a hard time hitting 60 again going forward. $10 mil.

 

[Beville]

I don't think two Norris trophies and his scoring production points to him being 'held back'. 'Held back' in terms of winning a Stanley Cup maybe, at least for now, but I'm not sure this is what this thread is about.

I was thinking along the SC lines, EK is going to be just like Alfie - A loyal servant with nothing to show.

 

[NyQuil]

I am not an expert, by any means. But from everything I see in Ottawa, the entire team and system seem to be tailor made to get the most and best out of Karlsson. I don`t think anything abut Ottawa is holding him back.

Just to clarify on the aspect of system as his name has come up a couple times so far in this thread:

For the entirety of Karlsson's career up to this point, we've operated with head coaches and systems that were primarily offensive in orientation. Karlsson's role on those teams was the be the penultimate offensive catalyst in moving the puck up the ice, participating in the counter-attack and organizing and managing offensive zone play.

There was a defensive aspect to his play in that he could move the puck quickly away from his own end, but this was not the primary focus.

Things have changed this year with Guy Boucher, who has implemented a conservative defensive structure that relies upon the team being more careful with respect to decision-making, particularly when it comes to counter-attacks and joining the rush.

I'd argue that Karlsson is playing more conservatively as well, as both the eye test and slightly lower point totals might confirm. There are a host of other factors in play for reduced points (PP effectiveness, slumps and injuries from Hoffman, Ryan and Stone early in the season) but ultimately he's playing differently this year. His ice time has also been reduced and he's playing quite frequently on the PK.

Now 37 points in 43 games is hardly a slump, and it's more than possible that he could hit his previous offensive levels in the second half.

To answer the questions of whether the system is holding him back, I would argue that previous systems may have helped with emphasizing his offensive totals but with a resulting cost on his all-around play. His current system could very well reduce his offensive contributions but I think it helps with his development into a more well-rounded defenceman. People who watched him play for Sweden will note that he played more conservatively in that structure but still led the Olympics in scoring.

Meanwhile, this "mediocre team" is holding "superstar" back could be applied to 2/3 of the league and their top player.

 

[RememberTheName]

Hall and Schneider from the Devils

 

[HarryLime]

Tanner glass

 

[DJJones]

The whole team took 15-20 games to adjust to the new coach / system.

He's also riding an unsustainably low PDO and on ice sh%. And being stuck with Alex Chiasson for 90% of the season doesn't help, nor does breaking his finger.

Despite all that, he's still got 18 points in his last 21 games. But he's due for some serious upward regression.

Gaudreau hasn't done himself any favors this year, they've tried everything to get him going the last ten games.

I'd say Brodie for the Flames. Playing him on the wrong side in a shut down role with Wideman.

It's painful to watch.

 

[Howboutthempanthers]

Bad systems are really really bad in general. It holds back players, teams... just total chaos, and any bad thing can happen with the wrong system for a team.
Players, a lot of the time, just need for the coach to not put things in their way, and just let them be the best they can be. You need to know your players, and you need to know what the hell you are doing.
Amazingly, some people in control (coaches/management) have no clue what they are doing.

 

[Rufus]

Karlsson.

Ovi from 2011-12 to 2013-14.

This. What an awful time in Ovi's career. Tried to make him a much different player than he was

 

[sr edler]

Oliver Ekman-Larsson gets a ton of minutes and opportunity in Arizona. He's had two straight seasons with 20+ goals and last year he had 55 points in 75 games. What does OP think he would score on a more "favorable" team? PPG? It doesn't work that way. And he's not Karlsson. Look what happened to Phaneuf when he left Calgary.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

Gaudreau hasn't done himself any favors this year, they've tried everything to get him going the last ten games.

I'd say Brodie for the Flames. Playing him on the wrong side in a shut down role with Wideman.

It's painful to watch.

They've tried everything to get him going? How about removing Chiasson from his line? They finally did it for the last 2 periods last night.

I don't think the coaching staff is at all concerned about getting Gaudreau going. Through his first 38 games last year, he played 21+ minutes 15 times. This year, he's only played more than 21 minutes once. Gulutzan just blindly roles lines, and the team is scoring at a 15% lower 5v5 rate, going from 9th in the league the 24th, despite the additions of Tkachuk, Brouwer, and Versteeg. If not for Johnson carrying the team for a stretch, they are nowhere close to a playoff spot.

Gulutzan coaches a conservative north-south dump and chase style - you really think that is ideal for a player like Gaudreau? You think playing with a plug like Chiasson is ideal for a player like Gaudreau? That kind of style works for guys like Brouwer, Tkachuk, Backlund, Bouma, Stajan, Frolik etc.

But when you are fortunate enough to have a talent like Gaudreau on your team, you want to use strategies that take advantage of his skillset. I'd say GG's system is also really bad Monahan because he can't get the puck in scoring areas. Honestly, if management is set on GG as the future of the organization, then the team is better off moving Gaudreau for a north south players like Mackinnon, Saad, Kreider, Hall, Perry etc.