KOVALEV10 said:
Well about Wayne being better then Mario it should also be notted that Lemieux never played a full season in his career and was constantly injured
Wouldn't that be a negative? How is being injury-prone helping his cause?
Wayne battled back injuries for much of his career as well. Didn't hold him as back. He might not have had quite the severe of struggles as Mario, but the point is that injuries are part of the game. That the Penguins couldn't count on Mario to play a full season hurts his cause, not helps it.
K10 said:
That Wayne scored so much with a cementhead on his line makes it that much more notable. But lets not kid ourselves. Mario had goons behind him. From Rod Buskas when he was a rookie to Francois Leroux. Even when he didn't have a full-blown goon backing him, they put tough guys Kevin Stevens and Rick Tocchett (part-time) on his wings to keep people honest. Mario had protection just as Wayne had protection.
K10 said:
Not by much. By the time the Pens were gunning for a Cup, Mario was surrounded by All-Stars. He had some weaker years (Brown and Quinn come to mind), but Gretzky had some years with so-so to marginal talent as well (Blair McDonald, Dmitri Khristich, Vitali Yachmenev, Patrick Sundstrom). Mario wasn't always lining up with stiffs just as Wayne wasn't always lining up with Hall of Famers.
K10 said:
No answer for that one. His 92-93 season is one of the best single seasons of all time.
K10 said:
played more during a low scoring era then high scoring unlike Wayne.
This is false. Mario entered the league 6 years after Wayne, not 60, so he played most of his career in the high-scoring era as well. Mario sat out or was retired for most of the dead-puck era. Wayne played 362 games from the lock-out on, Mario played only 290.
K10 said:
It should also be noted that both these guy's points per game averages are equal (1.92) and that Mario's goal per game average is far more then Wayne's (Mario 0.76, Wayne 0.60).
It should be noted that Mario only caught up to Wayne after he retired. Had Wayne sat out as many games/seasons over the age of 30 (when players are in decline), he would have never opened the door to catch up. If Wayne retired but one season earlier, Mario wouldn't have caught up.
This was done in a previous debate. Take the number of games Mario played and multiple that by the Wayne's PPG, Wayne retires with a 2.08 PPG average. Do the same for Mario (Mario's PPG times Wayne's games played; for seasons he sat out, take the average of the season before and season after), he sits with a 1.83.
Mario was able to preserve his PPG average by sitting out most of his declining years.
K10 said:
And in the two years where Mario won two smythe trophies in a row he dominated a lot more individually then Wayne did.
I disagree. Those were two impressive shows, not doubting that, but those were also two stacked teams. In 90-91, the Pens were a powerhouse even without Mario in the line-up for 2/3 the year.
What Wayne did in LAs Cup Final season stacks up to either of them. His 84-85 run was a show of offensive force like no other in Stanley Cup history. Wayne had several post-season runs that stack-up to Mario's Cups. Those two just are head and shoulders above any performace I have seen (note: I didn't see Orr win his Cups).
K10 said:
All in all Mario was the better goal scorer, Wayne the better passer and in the end both to me were the best ever although I prefere Lemieux but that's another story.
Mario was the better natural goal scorer and had more talent. That you prefer him is entirely up to you.
K10 said:
But I will not tolerate someone telling me that Gretzky was far better then Lemieux
These are always subjective. If you want to talk about 'best', you need to define context. Best single season? Best at their prime? Best career? Mario, at his best, performed at Gretzky's level. Talent-wise, Mario had more to work with. Those two comparisons, Mario stacks up. If you want to talk 'best' in terms of overall accomplishments and career, then it is no contest. Gretzky was indeed far better and it isn't even close. Far more points. Far more awards. Far more records. Far more impact on the sport.
Had Mario somehow managed to stay health, he
might have challanged Wayne. Even that is questionable though because even at his best, Wayne's best was still better. Bottom line though, Mario didn't stay healthy and didn't have nearly the same career success Wayne did. Wayne's career stands SO far out ahead of the rest that there really is no comparison. Not just to Mario, but to anyones. You can compare some single seasons of Mario's, but taken on a whole there is no comparison.
K10 said:
There are only three stats where Mario compairs: goals-per-game (Mario is the best); points-per-game (but as already noted, this number has mitigating circumstances) and single-season-performance (though still a good ways back from Wayne). Other than that, the stats don't show it.
K10 said:
Oh and if Lemieux had been healthy in 89-90 and 92-93 he would've won the art ross trophy and both men's total number of art ross trophies would've been equal (8 each).
That works both ways. Had Wayne been health in 87-88, he would have taken the Art Ross away from Mario. As for 92-93, Mario DID win the Art Ross. I am guessing you mean 93-94.
Say they both did stay healthy. Wayne takes the 87-88 Art Ross away from Mario, giving him 9 (10 real ones + 1 fake - 2 fake). Still more than Mario even if you give him the 93-94 and the 89-90 (6 real ones + 2 fake - 1 fake = 7). In the real world, Gretzky's 10 Art Ross trophies sit untouchable.