Goaltender Game-by-Game Logs (1965-66 to present) and research questions

[reckoning]

Past seasons of Pittsburgh Penguin gamesheets are available online.
1975-76 http://penguins.nhl.com/v2/ext/media/scoresheets/regular_season/1975-76.pdf

They list when goalie changes took place and how many saves each goalie had. Keep in mind that the number listed for each goalie are just their saves, not total shots faced.

A few of the games on the discrepancies list have different info than on the gamesheets about the time of the goalie switches. For example, the gamesheets say that on Nov 5 Resch came into the game at 31:47 after Pittsburgh's 6th goal; and in the game on Dec 19 against Vancouver, Pittsburgh apparently switched goalies twice.

If this information is available on nhl.com, I don't know why they don't do it for all teams.

 

[Doctor No]

Oh man - this is awesome! I appreciate it - I had no idea. I wonder if they're starting to do this for the centennial.

I wouldn't be surprised if I have some of the times wrong that I think I have right - sometimes I've seen differences in the written accounts (and I usually go with the home team's press if available). Although I've also found errors in the official NHL results, so there's a possibility too.

EDIT: on the November 5th Islanders game, I have the switch time in my logs correctly, but messed it up while typing the discrepancy note.

 

[Doctor No]

Interesting - the March 25th, 1976 NHL game summary for the Penguins says that Bobby Taylor did not play, although the Post-Gazette text summary says exactly when he entered the game and that he played well.

Seems like once the NHL reveals these en masse, there will still be a bit of "art" to the process.

 

[Doctor No]

Also interesting - the official Penguins' NHL game summary for October 27, 1976 confirms that Laxton was in goal for the game-tying goal, and should therefore get the tie.

The NHL statistics for 1976-77 don't give *any* ties to Laxton, so clearly there's something awry.

 

[Doctor No]

Well, after reckoning made my week (I added you to the "thanks" section of the main page), I've updated the discrepancies list:

http://www.hockeygoalies.org/stats/Discrepancies.pdf

Only remaining Penguins items are questions of "why", and of course the Gord Laxton missing tie, which I'm now 99% convinced of.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Well, after reckoning made my week (I added you to the "thanks" section of the main page), I've updated the discrepancies list:

http://www.hockeygoalies.org/stats/Discrepancies.pdf

Only remaining Penguins items are questions of "why", and of course the Gord Laxton missing tie, which I'm now 99% convinced of.

I drank way too much coffee tonight, so I'm going through your discrepancies that are in blue.

Herron/Sevigny - April 3, 1981
What was the order of appearance? HSP suggests that Sevigny played the first
two periods, but gives Herron the win (if Sevigny played the first two periods,
then he should get the win). I believe that Herron played the first period, but if
so, why did he leave?

Herron 20m, 5/6 (W), Sevigny 40m, 11/11

Al Sims, with his 16th goal of the season at 10:14 of the third period, spoiled Montreal goaltender Richard Sevigny's bid for his third shutout of the season.

Sevigny and Denis Herron, who took over in the Montreal net in the final minute of play, faced 17 shots, while John Garrett was tested 38 times in the Whaler net. Herron's appearance was his 24th of the season, leaving him one short of the number he needs to have his name enscribed on the Vezina Trophy, if the Canadiens, who lead in fewest goals allowed, go on to capture the award.

If Sevigny was making a bid for a shutout, he had to have been the starter. And the GA was definitely his; not Herron's. Herron didn't play much at all. Just like on March 29th against the Nordiques, Herron was thrown in at the end of the game to make it possible for him to be named on the 1981 Vezina.

Quebec fired 34 shots at the Montreal netminding duo of Richard Sevigny and Denis Herron. The latter replaced Sevigny with less than a minute to play in the game and is within two games of the 25 he needs to have his name placed on the Vezina Trophy, if the Canadiens go on to win the award for the fewest goals allowed in a season.

 

[reckoning]

Also interesting - the official Penguins' NHL game summary for October 27, 1976 confirms that Laxton was in goal for the game-tying goal, and should therefore get the tie.

The NHL statistics for 1976-77 don't give *any* ties to Laxton, so clearly there's something awry.

At the time I think the NHL's statistics department was still just Ron Andrews and maybe a couple of part-time staffers. Trying to keep track of individual statistics for over 700 games a year without the use of today's spreadsheets seems almost impossible to me. I'd be surprised if there weren't a few errors in official NHL stats from that era.

 

[Doctor No]

At the time I think the NHL's statistics department was still just Ron Andrews and maybe a couple of part-time staffers. Trying to keep track of individual statistics for over 700 games a year without the use of today's spreadsheets seems almost impossible to me. I'd be surprised if there weren't a few errors in official NHL stats from that era.

True - heck, the number of "fat fingers" I make that I don't notice until years later. I can't imagine taking on the scope of something like that, especially in the typewriter era, essentially on my own.

On the other hand, people cared less about such things back then, so perhaps it didn't seem as bad at the time.

 

[Doctor No]

I drank way too much coffee tonight, so I'm going through your discrepancies that are in blue.

Herron/Sevigny - April 3, 1981
What was the order of appearance? HSP suggests that Sevigny played the first
two periods, but gives Herron the win (if Sevigny played the first two periods,
then he should get the win). I believe that Herron played the first period, but if
so, why did he leave?

Herron 20m, 5/6 (W), Sevigny 40m, 11/11



If Sevigny was making a bid for a shutout, he had to have been the starter. And the GA was definitely his; not Herron's. Herron didn't play much at all. Just like on March 29th against the Nordiques, Herron was thrown in at the end of the game to make it possible for him to be named on the 1981 Vezina.

Very interesting - thanks! This has to be it; I'd forgotten about the Vezina criterion (at least as it applies here).

And I was actually missing Herron's 25th game, which was March 29th - partly why I didn't think of the criterion.

Probably the other reason I missed it is that assigning the April 3rd win to Sevigny leaves me a win short for Herron - he should have four non-decisions according to the NHL stats (25 GP, 6-9-6). I have him with five non-decisions:

March 26, 1981 - played 1m07s, 0/0, 8-2 win
March 28, 1981 - played 20m, 6/8, 2-6 loss
March 29, 1981 - played about 1 minute, about 0/0, 0-4 loss
April 3, 1981 - played about 1 minute, about 1/1, 6-1 win
April 5, 1981 - played about 2 minutes, about 1/1, 4-2 win

We know the win wasn't on the 28th or the 29th, and we've eliminated April 3rd. Did Herron get the win in one of the other games?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Very interesting - thanks! This has to be it; I'd forgotten about the Vezina criterion (at least as it applies here).

And I was actually missing Herron's 25th game, which was March 29th - partly why I didn't think of the criterion.

Probably the other reason I missed it is that assigning the April 3rd win to Sevigny leaves me a win short for Herron - he should have four non-decisions according to the NHL stats (25 GP, 6-9-6). I have him with five non-decisions:

March 26, 1981 - played 1m07s, 0/0, 8-2 win
March 28, 1981 - played 20m, 6/8, 2-6 loss
March 29, 1981 - played about 1 minute, about 0/0, 0-4 loss
April 3, 1981 - played about 1 minute, about 1/1, 6-1 win
April 5, 1981 - played about 2 minutes, about 1/1, 4-2 win

We know the win wasn't on the 28th or the 29th, and we've eliminated April 3rd. Did Herron get the win in one of the other games?

My suspicion is that the win came on April 5th, because we know it wasn't March 26 either:

The Flames, who have lost four games in a row, directed 18 shots at Richard Sevigny and Dennis Herron, who replaced Sevigny with 67 seconds left in the game.

But while the recap for April 5th mentions the Bruins' goaltending change at the beginning of the 2nd, it does not mention to switch to Herron. This is what was said of Herron's 25th GP after the Vezina was official:

The trophy is awarded annually 'to the goalkeeper(s) having played a minimum 25 games for the team with the fewest goals scored against it.' Sevigny appeared in 33 games; Herron met the requirement by playing in one period of Montreal's 4-2 victory over the Bruins in the last game of the regular season Sunday night at Boston.

The phrasing of "playing in one period" seemed curious to me, and given that the goaltender who played in the third (1 GA on 10 SA) would be the goaltender of record and that we are missing a Herron win, is it possible that rather than playing 2 minutes on April 5th, Herron played the third period?

 

[Doctor No]

I agree - that's particularly intriguing. Since I wasn't looking for this specifically before, I wonder if I can retrace some earlier steps.

 

[Doctor No]

Alright, game logs are now up back through the 1975-76 season, under NHL GAME LOGS on each goaltender's biography page.

For instance:
http://www.hockeygoalies.org/bio/drydenk.html
http://www.hockeygoalies.org/bio/parent.html
http://www.hockeygoalies.org/bio/giacomin.html
http://www.hockeygoalies.org/bio/vachon.html

Or even the great:
http://www.hockeygoalies.org/bio/smithg.html

I need to decide on a better way to mark playoff games.

Lotta green on Dryden's game logs.

I'll update the compiled metrics as soon as is feasible.

 

[Doctor No]

I've updated strength of schedule, game-to-game variance, and goal support statistics on the site back through 1975-76, for instance:

http://www.hockeygoalies.org/bio/nhl/montreal.html

• GFA: "goals for average", calculated identically to GAA - well, not identically, otherwise it would be GAA. Excludes empty-net goals. For more, see this thread: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1710887
• SoS: number of goals/game better (or worse) than league average a particular goaltender's schedule slate was. For more, see this thread: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1501681
• OS%+: how a goaltender's opponents' shooting percentage compares to league average (for instance, a +2.0% indicates that a goaltender's opponents had a shooting percentage 2% - not two percentage points - better than league average). For more, see this thread: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1501681
• BAV, AVG, AAV: these show how many times a goaltender exceeded (AAV), met (AVG), or did not meet (BAV) expectations in a game, given the opponent (if you follow my other thread, AAV = green, BAV = red, AVG = no color). For more, see: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1392449
• VAR: the overall game-to-game variance for the goaltender in the season. Less than 1.0 represents more consistent; greater than 1.0 represents less consistent. For more, see: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1392449

Anyhow, I already see a few interesting comparisons - note Dryden's schedule vs. Larocque's schedule.

 

[Sanf]

I saw recently article that speculated about Canada Cup team for 1976 tournament. Goalies were speculated to be Dryden + Waynes Stephenson and Thomas. Was really curious to see what they looked like. Both did seem to have career season by every metric.

Bouchard seemed to be much more trusted than Myre in Atlanta if you look at their schedule.

 

[Doctor No]

I saw recently article that speculated about Canada Cup team for 1976 tournament. Goalies were speculated to be Dryden + Waynes Stephenson and Thomas. Was really curious to see what they looked like. Both did seem to have career season by every metric.

For whatever reason, I always viewed the Waynes as pure backup caliber, but this project has opened my eyes especially on Stephenson. That the Flyers chose Stephenson over a recovered two-time defending Cup champion Parent to start the 1976 playoffs, and went to him quickly in 1977, makes sense now.

Bouchard seemed to be much more trusted than Myre in Atlanta if you look at their schedule.

Good call - I know the narrative well that "the Flames split games roughly equally for all of the Bouchard/Myre era", but that's clearly not the case. Looking forward to investigating 1974-75, where they each played half the schedule.

Resch and Smith in 1975-76 is an interesting schedule split, too - not only are Resch's traditional statistics (GAA known at the time, and now save percentage) far better than Smith, but his strength of schedule (+0.27) was miles above Smith's (-0.28).

Smith gets helped with an extra +0.30 goals/game of goal support, which is surely related to the schedule difference.

 

[Doctor No]

Anyone a better guesser than I am? I'm looking for the postseason version of this:

http://penguins.nhl.com/v2/ext/media/scoresheets/regular_season/1974-75.pdf

 

[Doctor No]

I'm going to be updating the game logs (and my custom built statistics that result from those) for 1974-75 today. Among other things, I'm excited because this will complete the goaltending histories for the Scouts/Rockies/Devils and for the Capitals.

I know that we have some very good sleuths out there, and again, I'd absolutely love your help. I'll be updating my discrepancies/questions page today, but I'll also post my key "big ticket" questions here directly.

For those of you willing and interested in helping, this is what I've checked already:

• Hockey Summary Project is my primary source.
• I'm only using Sebastien Tremblay's (great) book as a guide to look further in other places - I'm not using it as a primary source. First of all, I've found some errors in those logs (not surprising, given how much more sources are available now). Second, as you know, I'm trying to really document injuries and other situations for the site, and Tremblay's book doesn't go into that level of detail.
• I have the 1974-75 Pittsburgh Penguins game sheets for the regular season (and cannot find the playoff sheets).
• I've checked every Montreal Gazette paper available online.
• On days where I have questions, I've also checked the New York Times, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, Pittsburgh Press, Chicago Tribune, and the Prince George Citizen. I would also have liked to check the Ottawa Citizen and the Vancouver Sun, but the Google archives have a total of one day's paper between the two on dates I need data on.
• I have not paid for a Toronto Star subscription - over the past few seasons, these have gotten worse as far as data. This is likely where some of my answers are.
• I'd love to be able to get access (not cost prohibitive) for the Washington, Boston, Philadephia, Los Angeles, Vancouver, and other NHL city dailies. These written accounts are usually the gold standard.

Anyhow, I would LOVE any help that you're interested in providing - my goal is a lofty one (perfection) and likely unattainable, but the lack of perfection means that we can always make progress.

 

[Doctor No]

Two of my questions directly affect NHL records. The first is more important to me than the second.

Question One
The first question involves the Flyers vs. Maple Leafs game on March 15, 1975. When did Bernie Parent leave the game with a collarbone injury? My (very few) sources suggest that it was early in the third period, which would have been when Philadelphia had a 3-2 lead. Therefore, Bobby Taylor should get the tie in this game.

That would give Taylor one extra tie, and Parent one few tie, compared to NHL records. Taylor only played three games this year, and the other two are full-game efforts. When did the collarbone injury occur?

Question Two
The second question involves the Black Hawks vs. Flyers game on February 13, 1975. Both Sebastien's book and HSP (which likely sourced Sebastien) have Mike Veisor playing for four seconds during the game (with Esposito playing the remainder of the game). Did this actually happen, and if so, when and why did it happen? Did Veisor face any shots?

If Veisor did play in the game, then he would have ten games played, instead of the nine that the NHL gives him credit for.

 

[Doctor No]

One thing that I've observed - a lot of my discrepancies involve situations where Ken Lockett is subbing for Gary Smith. Since Smith played 72 games that season, I'm presuming that this is Phil Maloney's way of keeping Smith fresh - removing him for Lockett in games that have been decided. I'd love documented evidence of this strategy.

 

[Doctor No]

Those are the big issues - the other ones are more questions of "when did this happen", "why did this happen", or "how many shots did each goaltender face"? As I note above, one of my passions is determining injury concerns (partially to help quantify the "sure, goalies wore less gear back then, but they never got hurt" statement that I see around here a lot).

You'd be surprised how the latter won't ever be mentioned in either of the teams' dailies, but sneaks into a wire report somewhere and ends up in Prince George.

Full list is here:
http://hockeygoalies.org/stats/discrepancies.pdf

List is sorted by date, so 1974-75 is at the top. I put both teams involved on the list, because I've found it helpful to quickly see if I have access to a daily. The columns describe the nature of my question (TIME, SHOTS, ENG?, and the most interesting - OTHER - when I have another question involved).

Anyhow, I'd love the help!

 

[Doctor No]

These are the goaltenders who made their NHL debuts in 1974-75:

• Yves Belanger (Blues)
• Michel Dumas (Black Hawks)
• Pierre Hamel (Maple Leafs)
• Ken Lockett (Canucks)
• Pete LoPresti (North Stars)
• Curt Ridley (NY Rangers)
• Gary Simmons (California)

These are the goaltenders whose NHL careers ended in 1974-75:

• John Adams (Capitals)
• Ken Broderick (Bruins)
• Ross Brooks (Bruins)
• Rocky Farr (Sabres)
• Bob Johnson (Penguins)
• Fern Rivard (North Stars)

Johnson does have at least one backup appearance after this, but no game action.

It's also just fun saying "Fern Rivard".

 

[Doctor No]

1974-75 logs are up! After checking out Parent and Dryden, I have to admit that the first thing I did was check out the Capitals' goaltender. If you're the type to stare at shark attacks (okay, Canadien attacks), check out the end of Michel Belhumeur's career:

http://www.hockeygoalies.org/bio/belhumeur.html

Not a win in sight (he'll have a few once I get back to 1972-73).

I just finished smoking some hot ginger wings, so I'm going to work on those while I process database queries. Then, I'll get the statistics updated (with hopefully some fun numbers).

 

[Doctor No]

Where is everyone tonight? I don't mean this thread, either (it's not exactly rare that people ignore my threads ), but in general. No new History posts in three hours?

Anyhow, I've pulled together some 1974-75 thoughts in these three related threads:

Strength of Schedule: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1501681

Goalie Consistency: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1392449

Goalie Goal Support: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1710887

Enjoy! Let me know if you see anything interesting, and I'd still love the help on my outstanding questions.

 

[Sanf]

Looking forward to go through the new material . Took a quick look at the Parent collarbone injury. Source papers are bit interesting like Playground Daily News (Florida)

March 16, 1975 Playground Daily News

His last goal beat Bobby Taylor, who replaced starting goalie Bernie Parent, who was hit on his collarbone by a Darryl Sittler shot after :21 seconds had elapsed in the period. The Flyers had built up a 3-2 lead heading into the final period...

March 16, 1975 The Bridgeport Post

He skated around defenseman Ted Harris to beat Taylor who replaced Berriie Parent a the 21-second mark of the period. Parent left with a bruise...

I do have something about the Lockett/Smith tandem, but I need to find that from my other computer.

edit.

Also to the Esposito/Veisor question

February 14, 1975 The Argus

Chicago was unable to get a shot at Flyers goalie Bernie Parent for more than 10 minutes of the third period and goalie Tony Esposito left the game for four seconds with a swollen eye after he and Orest Kindrachuk began fighting. Mike Veisor replaced Esposito for one play.

Chicago Tribune says that Esposito had problem with contact lenses after the fight. But apparently Veisor indeed played 4 seconds.
hawk-fling-over-bow-to-flyers-4-1

 

[Sanf]

2/2/1975 Gilbert/Broderick change

Reason seem to be finger injury

February 3, 1975 The Lowell Sun

"I went to catch the puck and it dipped on me," explained Gilbert, whose middle and ring fingers were taped together after the game as he prepared to drive to Mass. General Hospital for X-Rays. "We don´t think it's broken," related Bruins Coach Don Cherry...

Some reports seem to talk about 24 saves to Gilbert but don´t know...

February 3, 1975 The Kansas City Times

Gilíes Gilbert, Boston goalie, had 24 saves before he suffered a finger injury stopping a shot by Bill Clement of Philadelphia with nearly six minutes left

edit.

2/19/1975 TOR CAL Doug Favell Gord McRae

February 20, 1975 The Times Record

Toronto lost starting goalie Doug Favell early in the third period when he was smashed against his crossbar as Californias Butch Williams collided with him. Favell was taken from ice on a stretcher and was replaced by Gord McRae, who last played om the NHL in the 1972-73 season.

Game was stopped for five mintutes. Apparently hurt his back and went X-rays and observation to Oakland hospital.